The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
The Trainer Wars: A Better Way Forward with Carmaleta Aufderheide
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The dog training world has always had disagreements about methods and approaches. But in recent years, the divide between force-free and balanced training has grown into something much bigger. Conversations have become increasingly polarized, curiosity is often replaced by conflict, and simply trying to understand another perspective can sometimes put you at odds with your own community.
In this episode, I sit down with Carmeleta Aufderheide, a dog trainer with a master’s degree in conflict and dispute resolution, to talk about why this divide continues to grow and, more importantly, what we might be able to do about it.
We explore the role social media plays in fueling polarization, what happens when we begin to view people with different approaches as a threat, and a fascinating concept called the “enemy trance.” We also discuss the pressure to align with one side or another, why newer trainers may become afraid to ask questions or explore different ideas, and how all of this ultimately impacts dog guardians who are simply trying to find help for their dogs.
Most importantly, Carm and I talk about how we can start having better conversations. Listening to someone’s story doesn’t mean agreeing with or condoning their methods. Curiosity doesn’t mean abandoning your ethics. And empathy doesn’t require agreement.
There may always be disagreements in dog training. But if we can create more room for curiosity, conversation, and growth, perhaps we can spend less energy fighting each other and more energy moving the profession forward.
About Carm:
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Why The Divide Matters
SPEAKER_00In this episode of The Bighty End of the Dog, we tackle a topic that many dog professionals are feeling right now, which is the growing divide in the dog training world. Conversations about training methods have become increasingly polarized, and the ripple effects are being felt across the entire industry. But what happens when disagreement turns into distrust and curiosity is replaced with conflict? To explore this question, I'm joined by Carmeletta Ofterheidi. Carm brings a unique perspective to this discussion because her background isn't only in dog training, she also holds a graduate degree in conflict and dispute resolution and has years of experience working in mediation and restorative justice. In our conversation, we explore how polarization forms within industries, how social media and group dynamics can amplify division, and what happens when professionals begin to lose their ability to empathize with those they disagree with. We also discuss the concept of the enemy trance, how curiosity can help bridge divides, and what practical steps might help move our industry towards healthier dialogue and collaboration. Carmeletta Ofterheidi is the owner of Northstar Training Solutions. She holds a master's degree in conflict and dispute resolution from the University of Oregon, is a trained mediator, and is certified through KPA and the CCPDT and holds a CSAP. Her graduate research on the restorative impact of prison dog programs, later included in the book Prison Dog Programs, inspired her in transition into professional dog training. Drawing on years of experience facilitating restorative justice and education programs with adults in custody, CARM now blends conflict resolution, mediation, and communication skills with dog training to help families navigate challenging behavior, reduce frustration, and improve conversations around dogs' behavior and needs. Currently, she's engaging in conversations about what happens when we lose our ability to empathize. And before we jump into today's episode, a quick heads up. If you're looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, head over to aggressivedog.com. For pet professionals, there's the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program available on aggression, packed with expert insights and continuing education credits. For dog guardians, check out Real Life Solutions, a practical course covering everyday challenges like leash reactivity and dog-to-dog aggression. You can also join the Ultimate Access membership for just $29 a month, which gives you access to expert webinars, live mentor sessions, and exclusive discounts. And don't forget to check out the Canis Conference, happening this October in Schaumburg, Illinois, which is going to be the world's largest conference dedicated to dog behavior, training, science, vetinary care, dog sports, scent work, and shelter and rescue. That can all be found at aggressivedog.com. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. This week's episode is going to focus on something that every dog trainer, or really almost every dog professional working with dogs, has experienced. And it's the great divide in dog training and the approaches to how you work with animals. And just for the sake of definitions, um, there's not a lot of uh we have lots of dog trainers, but we also have dog guardians and veterinarians and folks not necessarily within the dog training industry tuning into the show. So do you want to define uh what that means, the great
Defining Force-Free And Balanced
SPEAKER_00divide? It's these it happens when you have two sides that are formed from the different ideologies that form when you have what starts as one initial industry. So dog training has uh over the years split into or kind of form different camps, and there's variations in between, but what's called force-free training and balance training. Force-free is typically defined as those that try to avoid or directly avoid the use of aversives or particular tools like electronic training collars, choke chains, or prong collars, and things like that. And then we have what some refer to as the balance side, or the balance trainers that might choose to use aversives or uh use certain tools like e-collars, prong collars, choke chains, and things like that. Now, there's variations, and so I'm I'm loosely defining those, but that is sort of what is known in this great divide. And this episode is gonna be all about that. We're gonna talk about what's going on and what we're seeing in this industry and what the problems are, and hopefully how we can move towards building the industry towards a better place. So I couldn't think of anybody better than Carmeletta Ofterheidi, who is here with me today. And we're gonna dive deep into this. And because Carmeletta is a conflict resolution specialist as well as a dog trainer. So she understands this topic as deeply or more deeply than anybody I know. So welcome to the show, Carm.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Mike. Thank you. It's really nice to be back. And I was thrilled to be invited back to talk about this topic in particular, something that is um a really difficult one, and we often don't know where to stand in it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I'm gonna frame one more um idea here, just to again for the listeners that may not be as familiar with what's going on.
When Disagreement Turns Into Harm
SPEAKER_00Uh, so as as the years have gone along, I've been in the industry for close to 22, 23 years now, and we've seen this divide grow uh more and more over the years, where it's it's resulted in some seriously concerning behaviors for me. So I'm seeing not just criticisms or maybe even some name-calling online or in social media, you're starting to see uh really awful behaviors come out of people. And that can include things like death threats or slander, libel, threats to people's businesses, and just really, really terrible behavior being directed at people privately or publicly. And that is a big concern of mine because there's newer trainers coming into the industry. There's folks that are starting out with animals, and they don't know about any of this stuff at first. They just want to help dogs help their people, and they start to get exposed to this. And we have some really talented trainers sometimes, uh, just with incredible information to share, they end up leaving the industry, or worse, you know, there's there's, and that's the the really negative fallout or the effect of what's happened here with this great divide. And um, a term I I've recently discovered is something called schismogenesis, which is what's happened in the dog training industries when you have something that starts out as a whole, the dog training industry in general, like five decades ago, and then those two sides start to form. And what happens is the self-perpetuating conflict because it starts out with small stones, which then becomes larger stones, to more extreme behaviors. And that's definitely what's happened in the dog training industry. We have, especially when sentient beings are involved, you're going to have lots of strong opinions. So we've seen it, much like we see in the modern world today or modern-day politics, is this division that creates even more extreme behaviors. And then what happens is this phenomenon where those that might have uh a different view or what's called integrative complexity, and where you see both sides and you try to understand, you come from a place of understanding, you then get looked at with suspicion because you're not part of one of those extremes. So the extreme side might say, Well, you're not agreeing with us, so you must be like on the other team. And so now you are also going to treat me as poorly as the people from that other team. And so they assume you're on the other team because you are sort of just saying, No, I'm not part of any team. I'm just trying to understand the world around me and do the best I can with the information I have. So that's um just a little bit of background on what I've seen happening. And um, you know, I'm sure many people can share that same observation, but uh, I did want to set the tone and set the stage for the show. So now I'm gonna hand it off to you, Carmen, and kind of first talk about what you're seeing, maybe your observations, and then we'll get into, you know, social media role and things like that. But let's give me your big picture viewpoint right now.
How Polarization Escalates Over Time
SPEAKER_01Sure. You know, over the last several years, I mean, our industry isn't any different than any other. But what we, what I've started to observe is that we've found ourselves in a cycle of escalating polarization that's been happening. And that polarization of good versus bad, you know, evil, not evil, we're the good guys, you're the bad guys, you've got it wrong, I've got it right, is posing a real risk to forward progress in the industry itself. And it could eventually, if we're not careful, cause you know, our industry to actually get smaller instead of gaining trainers and curiosity and education and the things that we want to infuse into what we do for a living to help the dogs we're trying to help. Um, we're getting caught in this argument of polarization, of training methods, training tools, training, you know, divides that is really stopping progress as opposed to moving it forward. And as I started to kind of watch these things unfold over the last several years, it's no different than what's globally happening, what's politically happening in our world, what's happening, you know, in our communities that we may disagree with, where there's you know polarized viewpoints and messages going out. But what I started to really see was what you're talking about, where we have people afraid to get curious, people afraid to even speak about, you know, being curious or wanting to understand the story of somebody else, right? What we're doing is we just are constantly putting messages out that are saying you are constantly under threat by this person or by these this method, right? And um, I started to ask myself, because what happens, even for me, like I had to shut off certain messages, certain things that were coming through my social media feed. I started to really ask myself what happens when we lose our ability to empathize. And that's dangerous. Uh, for me, as an animal and uh training professional who embodies and embraces the ethics, you know, and philosophy of positive reinforcement training? Um, if I lose my ability to empathize with the other side, we'll say, you know, with a balanced trainer or with somebody that's putting messages out on balanced training or a training method that I don't align with and that I don't particularly support, um, if I've lost my ability to empathize, what does that mean for my ability to be able to help the dogs and the people either up coming up in my industry or the people that come to me for help?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah. It's it's interesting you mentioned just the social media aspect or what's coming across your feed. And, you know, you with your background, you have the expertise or at least the recognition that, hey, I've got to shut off some of these things because they're going to potentially influence me or add stress to my life or create negative um emotions in my brain. And so that's hard because, you know, the design of social media, the design, let's face it, the design of politics is to create division or or or criticize the other side. And that's what gains traction or votes, right? And and attention. And so it's it's a self-reinforcing, not just for the individual, but for the platforms, for society, for the algorithms. It's a self-reinforcing cycle. So, what are your thoughts on that and just how much social media does play that role?
Social Media And The Threat Loop
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, social media plays a huge role in the messages that we receive and where we are expected to align or not align to maintain our social acceptance in membership of a group. So, when when I'm talking about when I lose my ability to empathize, how does that occur? That occurs because I'm receiving messages that get me locked into a perpetual state of feeling that I am under threat by the other side, right? And then what I'm left with are assumptions and theories of their motivations, right? The next thing that kind of comes after that is when I'm left with only these assumptions, then I become more vulnerable or susceptible to messages that fuel distrust. And that's where social media comes in, right? Um, it fuels distrust and the fear of them. And I lean into messaging from people that I see as strong leaders in our industry or that look like strong leaders in our industry, but maybe putting out messaging that are designed to can keep me in that feeling that I am constantly under threat. Okay. Um, so what social media does is it plays a lot into what used to happen. Well, let me back up a second. What used to happen historically with these kinds of messages was they were played only to the people in, you know, our membership group or our, you know, aligned group as ways to kind of keep that group safe, keep that group as clean as possible in our beliefs and our ethics and our philosophies of training. And we could have discourse and we could have arguments among ourselves about what those methods might be or what those ethics might be. Um, the difference in what's happened over the last several years, those the other side never heard those arguments, never heard those that questioning, never heard those those messages. What's happened in the advent of social media and algorithms is now anything that is said about positive reinforcement trainers or training by a balanced trainer is now played to positive reinforcement trainers, which increases our anger and our, you know, infuriates us and increases that feeling that we are under threat if we don't do something about this, right? Um, same thing. Our messages that we might be arguing about or we might be debating or, you know, considering in our own membership, in our own positive reinforcement community, are played to them. They hear those messages also, and that keeps their anger and their feeling that we are their threat at play. And it just keeps the divide going, right? So these judgments never used to be the judgments and the discourse and the dialogue and the things that each group would have was never heard, where they were never meant to be heard by the other side, but now they're shared unilaterally across the divide, right? And that fuels this feeling that they're evil, they're bad, they're this is terrible. We need to stop this and we need to like extinguish it as quickly as we can and keep us under threat. You know, it keeps us under threat and just fuels that division. And this is, you know, oftentimes the messages that are coming from one side or the other aren't necessarily meant, they're not meant for the other side, but then they become meant for us because that's what the algorithm does. It, you know, it fuels power, it fuels engagement, it fuels likes, it fuels, you know, uh an income stream for those people that are, you know, essentially enemy makers that want to keep keep us doing this to one another because they're profiting from it, they're getting something from it. Who's losing are the people with good intentions on each side that really just want to be heard and understood because we we could be, but we're just not stepping into that in the proper way. When we consistently feel like we are under threat, we will lose our ability to empathize. If you're threatening me, I have no interest in wanting to know your story at all. Right. And I'm gonna make all kinds of assumptions about your motivations that lie beneath like your behavior, the tools that you're choosing, the way that you're advertising yourself, the things you're saying about positive reinforcement, it's meant to feel like a threat. And as long as we stay feeling, you know, like the other side is bad or, you know, or evil, we're gonna consistently stay in this kind of cycle of, you know, of hatred and and everything. When those messages didn't used to be shared, Mike, across, you know, across the divide, anybody that stepped outside of like the philosophy of what we believed acceptable in positive reinforcement, then those judgments would occur of like, oh, that person, I'm not so sure about that. We, you know, and uh they could be then kind of outcast, or we would, it was used as a way to kind of keep our group cohesive and clean and and moving forward under the philosophy that we want. But now it's being used differently.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Just to back up to an important distinction, I think, too, is that under threat doesn't have to come from direct interaction because some of us experience criticism, you know, especially if you're in more of a public eye, you're gonna get criticism and negative comments and then worse sometimes. But if you're first coming into the field and you're seeing these these comments and these posts and these memes and things like that, that is people forget that that's also going to stifle curiosity, stifle questions, stifle learning, stifle growth, because that person's afraid to ask or even speak. And it's interesting because the the other phenomenon I'm I see, and maybe you can talk about this, is when you are associated with one side or the other, but now because you are wearing, let's say, a red shirt or a blue shirt, and you happen to show up to the party with a blue shirt, you're gonna be assumed to act or behave like the worst of that. So I've been, you know, people say there's there's a there's like a common misconception, you know, all uh anybody who uses an e-collar is abusive, right? Now, certainly any tool can be used in an abusive way if we're gonna define a you know the the true definition of abuse. But then there's this blanket statement, like, okay, so these folks are saying that I'm abusive because I use an e-collar, and so Mike said thinks I'm abusive because he's part of that team. He's wearing the whatever color shirt for the day. Um and and that's tough for me to hear too sometimes too, because I I you know, I I've never said that, you know, I've never said anything even remotely like that. And I I I recognize sure, tools, some tools, of course, any tool can be used in an abusive way, it doesn't matter what it is, if someone chooses to do so. But that then when somebody makes that black and white statement, it carries over into everybody else in that side. So sweet, can you talk more about that?
Cancel Culture And Fear Of Curiosity
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's a really that's a really important thing that you've kind of pointed out because when we become susceptible to um messages that perpetuate fear, that's what happens, right? We'll have somebody that is a little bit curious, but like group membership matters, right? If we're looking at human needs, like what what happens in these assumptions is assumptions are, you know, we're making assumptions about somebody's moral kind of moral compass per se. And um when we're under threat and we feel like they're just trying to control us or they're telling me I'm bad, like a moral judgment. You tell somebody, you can you can tell somebody a lot of things, but the moment you say you're a bad person, you're um you're disgusting, you're a terrible trainer, you're, you know, those kinds of things, and it really hits to like I'm a bad person, it hits that core, um, that's like a knife to the throat. You know, then somebody's gonna be, you know, much more willing to fight and their group membership is at risk, right? They like they will do what they need to do to fight to maintain the group membership. And so when we get lost in this messaging and we have somebody um, you know, say, Well, you know, I'm not, am I am I positive enough to keep my membership in this group? Um, and if I don't align 100% with the messaging out there, and I don't sign the petition, right, with my name and put that stamp on there, uh, then they're risking loss of group membership. Because what's happened in our groups is we're being way less forgiving of the people within our communities to be curious. And it's like you said, like there's these assumptions and there's these moral judgments, and then there's these things that get said and put out. There. And it's really hard when it's in a large forum. Because where we really make an impact isn't necessarily, you know, if we want to make a macro impact on the industry and on this messaging, we have to start with the micro. And that micro means I have to be willing to hear somebody's story. I have to, if somebody in positive reinforcement is questioning or is curious or is wanting to understand what's going on with electric collars or with prong collars or with the way balance trainers are using them, or that somebody in our industry would even have a conversation with somebody on that side, right? I want to know the story because the only thing that happens when I make really broad assumptions and when our industry makes really broad assumptions in that way is it's meant to either continue the threat of ostracized, you know, I'm going to be ostracized for it. I could be canceled for it. I could be pushed out of the group for it. And I'm left with no community. And social death is probably one of the worst deaths that we can put on somebody, quite honestly, that we can force on them. And so they, you know, then they will like start to align and they won't speak up and they'll just kind of like the walls start to close in because it's not safe, right? It's not safe, even in our own community, to be curious and to have conversations about this. Conversations that don't say, oh, you're curious about that, then you know, you're leaning way too far into that. And clearly you would you might use that tool, and I'm gonna put you there. You're bad. That's that's not okay.
SPEAKER_00And what follows those words are some of the most harmful words I think that can that can happen is you should know better.
SPEAKER_01You should know better.
SPEAKER_00We hear that a lot.
SPEAKER_01Should I should I know better, really? Because how do I know better? The only way that I know anything is because I have been fortunate enough in my life to be surrounded by people that gave me permission to be curious and make mistakes. And we are no longer giving people permission to make mistakes and be curious. We are saying you get in line or you no longer have the support of this community.
SPEAKER_00And that's a very lonely feeling, right?
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's so lonely. It's the worst feeling in the world. And so, where what are they gonna do? They're gonna be more susceptible to messaging of the group that's like, oh, they kicked you out, come over here. Let's talk about this. And then now the group that you used to have membership in is now the enemy.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's interesting. I wonder if you see this as well. Is uh with someone like me that started out with um very traditional style training and using aversives and transition to what I do now. In my observations, this is a very general, just anecdotal observation, is that those that have come from a more traditional background and crossed over, you know, sort of are able to see this these the both sides and the arguments from both sides and the conversations and versus somebody that's just coming into the industry and starting out with one or the other and hasn't transitioned to one side or the other. Do you see the same thing?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, 100%. Um, I think that's just a natural evolution of trying to learn and kind of find your way, right? Um, I mean, you know, if it depends on the people that embrace you, fold you, you know, on take you under their, you know, their wing, uh, whether, you know, what their school of thought and what their school of philosophy is is going to probably, you know, a driving force in the direction that you go and in the education that you get in training. So absolutely, like when we lose our willingness to accept that people are finding their way and that they're going to scrape their knees, they're going to make mistakes and they're going to ask questions and they're going to be curious about things that we don't want them leaning into per se. We're not giving permission to be just human. We're not giving people, it's like you just line up, and this is, you know, this is these are your barriers. If you step outside those barriers, that's absolutely not safe. And it's and you will be canceled out of this. And so it's it feels very rigid and it's really scary for somebody really cutting their teeth and trying to kind of come into the industry because the messaging is loud and clear. It is everywhere. Like it doesn't take long to be on social media to see the posts about like, you know, understanding why these tools are harmful, the damage that they do, you know, and when we when we see those messages, what we're saying is that that method and the trainers that that lean into that are gonna always use those extreme forms of that tool. We are always going to have people on the extremes that will use the extremes of whatever tool and whatever method, whatever, you know, philosophies that they align with. That doesn't mean that if you know, people that are coming up and going through this natural curiosity and trying to find their way and trying to get their footing aren't going to, you know, they shouldn't, that they shouldn't have permission to kind of be curious and explore. And we shouldn't be so quick to judge their actions and say, you either do this or yeah. That's dangerous. Yeah. That's super dangerous. And instead of really growing our industry, what we're doing is we're risking extinguishing it over the long, the long term if we're not careful. Because all of these messages just evolve into hate of the other side, and we have no way out of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And and it's what we're witnessing around the world again. It's the parallels are um significant and concerning. Concerning for sure. You know, it's something I think about on my travels too. When what when I hear those words like uh that person should know better, or there's ample evidence or science or uh education out there, you know, why are people still doing X, Y, or Z? And again, that that could be said from either side. And and my fortunate experience of traveling has allowed me to see how much you really are, just a product of your culture, your environment, what resources you have available, who you've connected with. And so any of us could have taken any of those paths. And, you know, early on when I first started out, I didn't know about positive training at all. I didn't know it existed because it wasn't part of that ecosphere I was in. It wasn't part of my environment at the time. I had to find it. And the same thing I see when I travel, you know, it's you see such different approaches and methodologies and not just in training, but just animal welfare and how animals are treated and how people interact with them. You see that such a uh profound difference depending on where you are in the world, and that's that's gonna really influence somebody's learning, how they approach things. And so that gets forgotten a lot, I think, in our industry. Uh, and and that's the other thing with social media too, right? Is that there's there's people commenting from her all over the world with all different experiences, all different dogs, all different environments. So what are your thoughts there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, I 100% agree with you. Uh, I think that when we are looking at from a global perspective and the the ways, the different ways in which different countries and different, you know, different areas of the world will practice dog training, um, we're gonna see differences. And I love that. I absolutely love it. I learned from it and and I I think it's important to see. And one of the things that I have found personally helpful to myself is this idea that even though it's hard to accept, when I think about somebody that's using tools and methods that I I wouldn't align with and I don't necessarily agree with, and I wouldn't promote, instead of saying you should know better, right? You should know better that that's harmful to dogs, you should know better than to even talk to that person because that means that you're condoning or approving of those methods that they are using. Absolutely not. I'm not condoning or approving. I am just listening, right? I want to know more. I think about the concept that I could be them and they could be me. Two truths, two truths can occur at the same time. Their truth and my truth, very different truths, right? But they can occur at the same time. And what we're both trying to achieve could be the same goal, but we just have different truths, or we're we're filling a need for ourselves. We're, you know, we're working to meet a need for ourselves, um, in just in using different methodologies.
Dehumanization And A Restorative Lesson
SPEAKER_01But so when I say like you could be me, I could be you, I really pull this back to uh when I was inside correctional centers working uh restorative justice programs with uh adults in custody and incarcerated men and incarcerated women. I, you know, this was a really big lesson for me because, you know, it's just like I, you know, when I first started this work, I was just like, I'm gonna go in and help them, right? I'm gonna go in and help them understand themselves better. But it wasn't about me helping them understand themselves better. It was about me really listening and understanding them and hearing their story because once I heard their story, I started to really connect with them on a different level and I could then see how they found themselves where they did and how they found themselves in the situations that they did that fulfilled kind of a, you know, a negative self-fulfilling prophecy for themselves, or, you know, something got out of control. And I very vividly remember sitting um across this moment really struck me where I was sitting across a table and I was interviewing a woman who was incarcerated. Her background was not so different than mine, quite honestly. She was, uh she had been a nurse, I was a retired nurse. She was about my age. Um, she was about my age, but her, the marriage she found herself in, the relationships she found herself in, the you know, family history was different than mine. If I had been in her shoes and been and grown up and been raised and lived the life with those same influences in my life, I could have been her. 100%. We were not so different. And that really struck me because when I'm looking at this division and this divide and how we're um, you know, enmifying everybody, you know, other sides, what I what we're missing is that there are people on the other side that are humans. And what we've done is we've dehumanized them. We've taken their humanization away and we've said, you know, you should know better, or you should, you know, you're you're bad, or that's evil, or that's disgusting, what you're doing, because you are intentionally causing harm. And I'm putting a judgment that that choice to use that tool, to use those methods is intentionally meant to harm a dog. And I don't know that. And I'm making a huge assumption. And what I really need to do is take a step back and I want one-on-one. I don't do large groups, I like doing these conversations one-on-one because I want to know your story. I want to hear your story, but I need to hear your story from a very honest and human space where I'm not assuming anything, I'm just hearing it to understand. Because if I don't do that, I don't have an opportunity to then connect in a way that allows me to see myself as potentially them and them as me. That's where I can start to shift the tide towards maybe we can talk about this, maybe we can support each other, maybe we can stop this conversation of like I hate you, you hate me, you're the enemy. Um we're never gonna, we may never see eye to eye on certain things. I don't condone that. I don't approve of that. I don't, that doesn't mean I support that method. It just means I get your story. Now I can understand how you got there.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01I need to take it back to a human level of like I could be you, you could be me. And I think that when we have these divisions and these messages coming across that are polarizing us, we lose that opportunity to. It's scary to think that somebody that we think is intentionally out to harm a dog in the methods that they're using, that I could do that, that I could that could be me.
SPEAKER_00We could be each other. Those are socialized words. And I and I think I can even take that a step further. Is that sometimes you can look at somebody and say, I was you. You know, when I look at somebody starting out in training, I was them. You know, I started out and many uh made lots of stumbles over the years, and that that's not even just talking about tools. I'm just talking about my experiences in dog training. So I think that's such those are such words of wisdom that that you have spoken there and just in terms of understanding this great divide is that first we must say, this could be me, I could be you, you could be me, we could be each other. It's just so strong, so strong. Um, all right, so we wanna we wanna segue into I think how what can we do about all this? But first, let's take a little break to hear word from our sponsors, and we'll come back and brainstorm what we can do about all of this. This episode is brought to you by Dog Academy. If you're listening to this podcast, you already know aggression cases need more than competence and good intentions. They need science, structure, and a commitment to force-free methods that don't wobble when things get hard. That's what Dog Academy is built on. They're a national network of certified trainers working under one promise: teach, love, grow. Force-free, positive reinforcement only, and that policy holds for every case they take, including serious behavior work. Whether a family needs help with a reactive dog, a resource garter, a fearful rescue who started to shut down, or a multi-dog household that stopped feeling safe, dog academy trainers meet people where they are and build skills that actually stick. Skills that survived the move, the new baby, the holiday guests, all of it. Their trainers are spread across the country and held to the same standard, which means a referral to Dog Academy is a referral you can stand behind no matter the zip code. That consistency shapes how they train, how they hire, and how they support every family they work with. If you're a fellow professional who refers out, Dog Academy would love to be one of your options. If you're a dog owner listening because you're trying to understand your own dog, they'd love to help you too. Find them at Dogacademy.org. The dogs in your life, the ones on your caseload, in your home, or both deserve a team that won't compromise on welfare to get a faster result.
The Enemy Trance And A Way Out
SPEAKER_00Alright, we're back here with Carm Off to Heidi, and we've been talking about this great divide in the dog training world and what's caused it, some of the complexities and the nuances of it, but I know we should probably the only biggest question I get, Carm, is what are we gonna do about this? So when people hear me talking about this and the the issues, people are often wondering, what can we do? You know, where this is seems like such a huge, insurmountable problem. So let's let's kind of talk generally here. What do you what are your your big picture thoughts on this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, that's that's a big question, right? So how do we how do we make our way out of this? You know, in in researching this and in studying this and reading about like polarization and what happens, uh, there is a term that uh there is a lawyer, his name is Larry Rosen, and he does a lot of mediation work with divorcing couples, with people that are in, you know, polarized positions or you know, hateful positions with one another. And um, he coined a term called the enemy trance. And I love that term simply because that's exactly what we find ourselves in, right? That's that's the that's where we're at right now, and how do we make our way out of that? That's where we feel like we're constantly, consistently getting messages where we feel like we're under threat. Um, we become desensitized, you know, to the other side. We get more willing to want to hurt the other side. We want to, we want to cancel them, we want to stop them, we want to hurt them. Um we've lose we've lost our ability to empathize. So, how do we de-escalate that kind of conflict, right? How do we start to bridge that? Is we have to start thinking that I'm not a threat to you and you're not a threat to me. So we want to really start by restoring empathy. And we restore empathy by demonstrating to somebody else that I'm not a threat to them, right? I'm not going to go into a conversation with somebody. What often happens, well, what often happens when two people that feel like they're a threat to one another feel like the other side is bad, the other side needs to be corrected, uh, is that, you know, when we they start to discuss or we start to talk to one another about the tools we use, the philosophies that we use, the things we believe in, is it goes down into those moral judgments and we start pointing fingers and we we start arguing. We start arguing about the damage that somebody's doing. Like, how can they not see this as harmful? How can they not see that positive reinforcement is a lie to like all of these clients that you are promising things just using positive reinforcement and that real world consequences don't actually occur, you know, in training, like all of these things. It just starts to get, we just go down the same path of arguing that we've always done. And what we want to do is we want to avoid that urge to debate because I've said this before on your podcast, it's not my job to convince you that you're wrong. And I want to abandon that concept that I'm gonna change your mind. I'm gonna show you the error of your ways, the error of your thinking, the error of the history that and your story, right? That your story is invalid. And that's a terrible place to start. Um, and so what I want to do is I want to avoid that urge to debate. And I want to start using understanding as a form of care because we will have people that'll be like, I'm gonna just like drop the truth. I'm gonna drop this like list of truths and then drop the mic out. I have said my piece, I'm right, you're wrong. And what happens when we do that is like I haven't developed any kind of understanding of that person to be able to even drop a truth to them or what I would consider a truth, right? In my industry. So I have to fight that urge to debate them because that's not gonna get it. We're just gonna keep going round and round the drain, right? It's gonna keep going and then it's gonna fuel the division in the messaging that goes out of like, see, they're they're dangerous. That's a dangerous side to believe in. Don't lean in, stay here. And if I don't completely align there, you might get canceled. You may no longer your membership is like, we're gonna, we're gonna take your positive reinforcement card away from you, right? Um, so to avoid like that kind of like dance where we're constantly arguing, I have to, I have to do that thing where I was talking about. I need to tell you I'm not a threat to you. I I have to be willing to hear your story. I have to be willing to actually engage in a conversation, not tell you why all the reasons and all the things that you're doing are wrong, but to hear your story. And that's going to allow them to then on the flip side hear my story. What's really difficult about that is when I'm telling my story or I'm hearing your story, is not to infuse motivations that aren't correct towards people, not to like put on them a motivation of like, oh, well, you're they're doing that because of this. I don't know that. I need to ask that. What need, you know, if I say you do that because you want to control dogs? Control isn't a motivation. Control is an action that fills a need, a human need that we're trying to meet for safety, security, those kinds of things. And so by just saying you're trying to control, I'm just labeling people and that and and I'm not understanding them, right? So want to avoid debating and we want to dispel those moral judgments. So if you understand me and if I understand you, we are less likely to hurt each other. We are way less likely to hurt each other, and we're gonna it we're gonna disarm the enemy messages out there that say, no, they're still the enemy. It's like, well, do you really know them? Have you really heard their story? Do we really understand, you know, how one industry separated into two and how that happened and how this divide started getting played out?
SPEAKER_00What are what are some ways you you use the word disarming there? And I love that because when we think of disarming, we think of disarming through force or through threats, right? And so clearly for this approach, we need to think about how do we disarm somebody without the use of threat, without the use of saying, I'm going to, you're you're going to be punished if you don't, you know, drop your weapon first, right? And especially in this social media climate with kick quick comments or, you know, what do you what are some of your your tips there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So when you're asking, so give me a little clarity on that. So if we're talking about disarming, are we talking about disarming within our own group that is telling us if we do this or if we have these conversations, we're risking Perhaps you can talk about both.
SPEAKER_00You know, let's say we're talking about in let's say it's let's just use an example, like a Facebook group where it's all one type of trainer. And and you're saying, I'm interested in, let's say, going to this workshop that's showing this other method, and that can come from either side. And I've seen it actually happen that way. And um, and that person's starting to be attacked or criticized, but they want to come from a place of understanding and also try to look at getting understanding for what they're what they're talking about. So maybe in that context and then the other one, which is like you're talking to somebody from the other side in a more public way.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Okay. Um, oh, which one do I tackle first? Um disarming. Let's let's tackle the I'm talking to somebody on the other side first.
Disarming Conversations Without Debate
SPEAKER_01Uh, if I'm going to disarm them, I have to then show them that I have a genuine, sincere human interest in understanding their story and not arguing what they do. Right. Um, and so that only happens because when I listen, I'm able to echo back and understand where they're coming from, how those things influence them. I will often ask somebody, you know, what is your great, you know, what are you most proud of in your training career, right? What are you most proud of? What's been the hardest thing you've done and that you've faced in your training career? Um, what is there anything that you would change? What's been probably the most emotionally difficult thing that you've experienced, um, the hardest moment of your life? Because those things tell me who you are as a person. Those things tell me what events shaped you and led you to follow a certain path, a certain philosophy, certain tools, and why you've leaned into that. Um, tell me why that's important to you. Right. So I'm hearing their story. I have no interest in debating the science of it, debating the intended harm of a tool or not harm. I don't care about them say telling me that if you learn to use this tool correctly, right, um, then it doesn't cause harm. I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in your story because I need to take in my mind, I need to set shift that person from being my enemy and being a threat to being human. And when we are stuck in a trance of an enemy trance, we're stuck in thinking that you are always my enemy. You are always a persistent threat to me and you are not human. Because if I humanize you, that means I'm accepting something that is uncomfortable. And I what's uncomfortable is I don't understand you. So help me understand you. Let me hear your story. Uh, when it comes to our own groups on social media, we have very loud messages. We have very loud messaging going out of like, this is disgusting. How is our industry not stepping up to the plate? How are we how are we still having this debate? How are we still arguing this? Why are these trainers still doing this? And the people reading this or receiving this messaging is then really feels the pressure of, I need to comment, I need to support like the things that I believe in in training, because that keeps my membership safe and it keeps my support group, the people that I align with good, but it doesn't mean that I feel really great about the way that messaging is going out. So I mentioned that we, so how do we disarm that? We disarm it by pretty much aligning to our philosophy for me, aligning to my philosophy and positive reinforcement training and disconnecting from I don't comment. I don't comment on that because every comment, if you don't comment that's in a way that supports the messaging that's going out, then that feels unsafe. So I don't comment because I have given myself permission to say I'm more curious than that. I'm more curious than that. And then anybody that wants to have that conversation with me, I am all in. I am all in for having that conversation, but I'm not going to do it in social media because that messaging is meant to drive us further apart. And I don't need to virtue signal and say, yep, I checked that box. That's who I am. I 100% aligned with that. Even if I do align with it, I don't, I feel like the messaging can be different, right? Um, so we need voices in our industry that are strong voices. We need those codes of ethics that our professional industry and our professional organizations have come out with about, you know, the use of prong, the use of, you know, we need those things. So, you know, there is some good that comes from that messaging and from those pushes. What we don't need, though, is a perpetuation that they are that the other side is evil and there is no hope for them, and we just need them to disappear. They are not gonna disappear. And we need to stop the messaging that if you don't, if our industry doesn't like start falling in line with all of these things and do this certain thing, we're gonna die. I don't believe our industry is gonna die. I think what's going to cause more demise in our industry than growth is this increased polarization that keeps us constantly thinking we are under threat. Because that's stopping the progress that we need in our industry to say, what are the certifications? What are the metrics that we want people to meet in order to, you know, be you know, be under this umbrella? We're just perpetuating messages of you know good and bad back and forth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I have so many thoughts. And and I'm I'm trying to put it in. I'm not sure I answered your question. Yeah, and you in so many ways, and and it brought up so many other questions that I think are relevant to this conversation. You know, it had me thinking going back to uh disarming and understanding and and creating a safe place for that person, the person you're conversing with, to talk openly about that and not feel like they need to sugarcoat things, defend things, or put on a show for their audience or the virtue stuff, you know, all the things we're talking about. And it just reminded me of the again, travel and culture. It's like um, you know, it could be the custom that somebody's used to or from their environment, you know. So like going to Japan, right, and taking off your shoes, it's just like the weird thing I was just thinking of. And it's expected and normal, and like, you know, but in some cultures it would be maybe considered rude or like totally unexpected. And you can imagine just those two people talking. Like, what if they're both from the shoe wearing industry or whatever, whatever, whatever you want to call it. But it's just it's it's there's so many parallels to it because people have to and and people recognize that. I mean, you know, most people are like, oh yeah, I have to, you know, I go to another country, I'm gonna follow their norms. But when we talk about dog training and the the the way we are having conversations with people from all over the world, we forget that. We forget that those cultural influences and in the dog training, and it's it's there are, let's face it, many cultural influences in the sense of um what's impacting somebody's um ideology. So yeah, just just thinking out loud there about you know disarming and and and when it comes to these conversations. Uh and then you mentioned also something really important, it's just you know, take it private if you have to, because you can't a lot of times the influence of the group uh um view, so the group that you're talking in is going to skew what you say most of the time, unless you're really really used to having those conversations. Best is practice offline or you know, privately at first, I think. Um so so you mentioned leadership and and you know, let's talk
Ethics Statements And Better Leadership
SPEAKER_00more about that. You know, what uh would you see people doing in that kind of role or position to to shape and steer the industry?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean we have had a statement from the AVB, I the Veterinary Behavior Association, right? We've had, I believe, CCPDT came out with a position statement. There have been others. And I think that the things that they are working at putting in place are important. I think they're really important messaging. And I when we are, when we're looking at organizations to be thoughtful about how we're going to shape our industry, what's going to be necessary for us to be in in good moral standing and good ethical practice of what we do, uh, this needs to happen. But it also is going, it can happen because we, you know, we loud voices push industries to do that. Um, and then once that occurs, what I've seen is then there's criticism of how that was done, right? There's criticism of the statement that was put out. They're still accepting this, they're still accepting this. We are still not celebrating the movement that's been made, the conversations that are being had, the thoughtfulness at which people are trying to do their best to bring our industry up into the 21st century to say this is important to animal welfare. And I honestly have to, you know, give kudos to Kim Brophy for the question that she's asking as she's asking, you know, are we talking about welfare? Um, just you know, pretty much just really talking about what's important to her. I'm understanding what's important to her and how she came to, you know, do ethology, how she came to create FDM, why that's important to her. Um, and I just really, I mean, I appreciate it, but I think that we have to stop being so critical of when change does happen. And when we do have, you know, leadership kind of like pulling, you know, coming up to speed and saying, oh my God, we're taking notice of this. Um, we need to do something that we stop criticizing, that we've been taken notice of, and that changes are starting to occur because they're not always the changes that, according to our group membership, are exactly checking all the boxes that we think they should be checking. So we're like doing this to, we're like creating enemies of ourselves at the same time when we do this. We need leadership. So one thing that I want to make really clear is that when we have conversations of curiosity, when we are saying, I'm not a threat to you, you are not a threat to me, I want to know your story, that does not mean that I support your methods, that I condone your methods, or that I approve of them. It means I want to know who you are and I want to understand that better because that is going to be the avenue to professional collaboration that could change how we work together. We may never work totally together, right? We may always be on the opposite. But as long as we are at war with one another, war is the message. We are keeping the message of war at the top of the list. And that's not what should be up there. We need to bring that down and have real conversations with one another and allow people to scrape their knees, allow people to and leaders to create codes of ethics, things that are important, that then are going to get amended and going to constantly be revisited. If we look at our US Constitution, it was created in a way that amendment so that amendments could be made. We're not living by the, you know, the things that were created in this 1776. Amendments have been made all along the way because life changes, perspectives change, industries change, needs change, and we need to allow amendments to occur without creating a new war in our own industry.
SPEAKER_00It's it's interesting. I just had another thought, too, since we're talking a little bit about world affairs. And it it's really also what's happening in the industry now is we're seeing efforts to exile a certain group of people. And and ironically, it's often the folks that are speaking the loudest about being against things like genocide or you know, completely removing a population of people from a space. That's what's happening in the dog training industry. And with regulation and this and those those standards and these things. And if you're not with us, you're out. We need to get rid of all of you, right? And it's 100%. Yeah. It's mind-boggling that people can't see that when they're when they're you know fighting for one cause where people are being exiled, but they want to exile others from what is a shared space right now.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_00You know, this just the space doesn't belong to anyone, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, yes, thank you. Thank you. This space doesn't belong to anybody, it belongs to everybody. Yeah. Right? Um, and I think that when we we take the extreme step of um no due process, let's put it that way, uh, no due process, then I don't I don't want you to be the judge, jury, and executioner of you know, my growth and my development. I want you to be, you know, a a force for and a place where I can explore and I can make mistakes and I can grow and I can develop and I can understand what's important to me and why I want to do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
How Clients Get Caught In Wars
SPEAKER_00Let's shift gears just shortly here for a second to the impact on our clients and their dogs. So we've been talking mostly in the profession about professionals in the industry, and we kind of talked about the shrinking of the industry or the self-implosion that can happen with this if this continued division uh carries on. But what about what are your thoughts on how dog guardians are being affected by this? And I and I'll give a quick note on like my perspective. I've you can sometimes ask, like, are you aware of the trainer wars? And some people are like, yeah, and some people are like never heard of it. And and then there's some people now, though. I'm seeing a greater percentage of people that are not identified as dog training professionals. It's like, you guys are nuts. I've seen like TikTok videos being created, like, if I want drama, I can just go watch the dog trainers because they are entertainingly full of drama. And that's a problem though, because for me, it presents a challenge to the average person. Like, who do I go with? Who what's working best here? What do I believe in? And that also goes back to how we're raised, cultural influences, environment, you know, what kind of training you might choose. But um, yeah, this is a could be a whole nother podcast on its own, I know. But um, but what are your thoughts there? Impacts on the on the clients and the and the dogs.
SPEAKER_01Impacts on the clients is huge, right? I mean, we have so there's a ripple effect to everything that we do that we say, the wars that we keep going, the way that we enmify one another, um, and we stay in this this trance of like you are constantly my threat. Um, what our clients see is the trainer wars, right? Uh it doesn't take long to go on social media or to be searching for trainers, uh, even on YouTube, and just go, what do I, you know, what's the best way for me to do this to find the trainer wars, right? Um, and to get confused. And what there was, uh there's been some recent research that uh has come out and a study that's been come out that discussed and researched and looked at uh the ways that people grew up, the the ways that, you know, they have grown into adulthood and the beliefs that they have, the way that they lean into their life is going to influence the training method that they choose, right? Um it's gonna whether they lean, they go towards finding a balance trainer or they go towards finding a positive reinforcement trainer, there's gonna be influence. Now, if they make that choice and then they um, you know, are they make a choice that you know they're willing to dip their toes into, this seems kind of interesting. And I've always felt like I, you know, I've had to be uh really I've been corrected. I've been, you know, I've I've been kind of in that balance camp, uh, let's say, and I go to somebody that is a positive reinforcement trainer, and I get, you know, I get caught in the crosshairs of a trainer war, and I am told I'm a bad person, or I'm told that I am intentionally harming my dog because I won't work with you when you come into my training center with that tool on your dog, then yeah, I'm I'm I'm leaving, I'm gonna go out. And so what we're not doing is we're not welcoming, we're not welcoming people from every avenue, from every walk of life, from every historical perspective to say, I want to know your story, let me try to help you. Um, and what we're doing is our our potential clients are seeing the war and very confused about what feels safe and where to go. And even if they go in a direction that feels good to them, then they now feel like they are in a position to defend that against the enemy. Also, um, we're putting our clients in a position of defending what we do as well, and that's not fair to them.
SPEAKER_00Completely unfair when, especially in aggression cases, since we are an aggression podcast. They're going through enough, right? And to put that extra burden on them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's not that we're outwardly saying you need to defend me, but it's just like that messaging is very clear. It's implied.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes.
A Practical Roadmap For Empathy
SPEAKER_00So so we've talked about a few different roadmaps, I guess, towards potentially kind of our thoughts on the divide and and and what we hope can happen in the industry and things like understanding, holding safe spaces, remembering empathy. What else would you say? Uh you know, and and kind of closing up the show here, what is what are some other things that you really want to put out there into the universe of like this is the if I had the perfect roadmap and I could just put it all out there and everybody follows that path, what would it look like?
SPEAKER_01If I had the perfect roadmap, which I don't, uh, but I think if if I had the perfect roadmap, I think what I would really want to get across is that we don't need to be each other's enemy. We don't need to perpetuate that message that, you know, there is room for all of us in this in this industry. There is room for all of us to disagree, there is room for all of us to have different philosophies. It doesn't mean I'm going to condone what you do, but I think we just need to be less inclined to lean into membership and more inclined to hearing one another's stories. Because membership has its faults if the membership becomes too rigid and we are not cognitively curious anymore or cognitively flexible. We have once we reach a cognitively rigid state of membership, we create enemies because then we feel like anything that comes in against that is a threat to that membership. And so if I had a perfect roadmap, it would be to celebrate curiosity, to celebrate flexibility, and to celebrate questioning what we do and understanding why that's important to us and why we do it and why it's not important to us, and then align ourselves with you know codes of ethics that can be amended and are gonna evolve and change as we evolve and change in our industry.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful words. Beautiful words of wisdom there. I think everything you say is is such a great way to round out the show. And I did want to kind of just step back and hear your words about empathy again and if we lose our ability to empathize, because I think that's such an important reminder for everybody. So can you just recap that before we close out the show?
SPEAKER_01Sure. I would love to. Um, you know, when I ask myself, and I I posed that question in the beginning of what happens when, as an industry, we lose our ability to empathize? Um what happens is we're stuck in perpetual threat. We're stuck in a cycle of feeling like we need to fight for our survival. What I really would like to see as a way out and a possible way out of how do I regain that ability to empathize is like is hearing people's stories, celebrating curiosity, celebrating flexibility, celebrating change with room for growth and to stop villainizing one another. Because as long as we keep each other as villains, the good guys and the bad guys, there's no room for anything in between other than division.
SPEAKER_00Wise words to close off the show, Carm. Thank you so much for joining
Where To Find Carm And Resources
SPEAKER_00me today. Uh before you go, where can people find you? What's the best place?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, so people can find me. Uh I live in Springfield, Oregon. I run North Star Training Solutions. I specialize in separation anxiety and conflict resolution. There is a part of my website that is for animal professionals where I do consult, you know, consulting work for shelters for private trainers that are just really having struggling, not so much with this conversation with polarization, although it could be that, um, but with just having hard conversations. And I just finished uh working with a shelter in Australia and three of their teams, super interesting work, loved it, um, have been working with some local shelters near me and other professional trainers and veterinarians on hard conversations. So they can find me on my website. There is one other thing that I would like to kind of introduce to people is if you're really curious about the enemy trance and you're really curious about what polarization does, uh, there is a project called the Enemy Project on YouTube. Uh, and it is remarkable and it puts that global perspective on what happens when we bring two people that feel the other person is the enemy together in a room with a professional mediator skilled at helping them break this division, hear one another's stories, and shift into whatever is going to happen. There's no expectation. Um, it's really interesting, and I think it's um inspiring as well to like what we see happening in our industry.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. And I'll be sure, as usual, to link those in the show notes. Thank you again so much for joining me, and I look forward to seeing you again soon.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Mike. I really have had a great time. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00It was great sitting down with Carm to explore a topic that affects every corner of the dog training profession. Conversations like this remind us that disagreement doesn't have to lead to division. When we focus on curiosity, empathy, and understanding one another's stories, we open the door to healthier dialogue and a stronger future for the industry and the dogs we're all trying to help. And if you're ready to go deeper into understanding and helping dogs with aggression, visit aggressivedog.com. Whether you're a professional or a dedicated dog guardian, you'll find everything from the Aggression and Dogs Master Course to expert-led webinars, informative articles, and details about the Canis Conference happening this October in Stromburg, Illinois, with both in-person and virtual options available. Thanks for listening in, and as always, stay well, my friends, and the five.