Still Dog People: Two Truths

This week, a special episode from our friends at the RISK! podcast. 

A kid gets invited into the neighbor's yard, and within seconds a dog attack turns a normal evening into an emergency. Jill Karliner's story is graphic, emotional, and unforgettable as she shares what comes next: emergency surgery, a burn unit, night terrors, and the slow realization that childhood trauma can shape how someone experiences the world for decades. 

Then John and Kate LaSala join the conversation to explore the bigger question Jill's story raises: how can the same species that caused the worst moment of your life also become a source of comfort, purpose, and healing? They discuss fear of dogs and exposure therapy, how repeated safe experiences can rebuild trust, and how Jill's family ultimately found healing by fostering puppies for a guide dog program, helping raise future guide dogs and service dogs for people who are blind. 

Kate also shares her perspective as a dog behavior consultant and companion animal end-of-life doula, discussing what meaningful supervision really looks like in homes with dogs and children, why management alone eventually fails, why the myth that "good dogs tolerate everything" places children at unnecessary risk, and how planning ahead for a pet's final chapter can bring greater peace when the time comes.

If this episode resonates with you, share it with a fellow dog lover, subscribe, and leave a review so more listeners can discover the show. We'd also love to hear from you: what's one "two truths" moment you've experienced in your own life?

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Transcript

Collaboration And Content Warning

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Before we get into today's episode, I wanted to let you know we're doing something a little different. Today's episode is part of a special collaboration with the podcast Risk. If you're not familiar with it, Risk is a first-person storytelling podcast similar to The Moth or Snap Judgment, except it's much less filtered and often explores stories you wouldn't typically hear on public radio. Many of you may not know that our wonderful editor here at the Bitey End of the Dog, John, has also been an editor and producer with Risk for nearly 10 years. He co-hosts today's episode with his wife, Kate Lasala, who many of you will know as a highly respected dog trainer and behavior consultant. Today, you're going to hear a Risk episode called Still Dog People, Two Truths. Then on Thursday, we'll release a brand new episode of The Bitey End of the Dog called Still Dog People, Who Am I Now? Featuring my conversation with Marilyn Gilchrist. As part of this collaboration, that episode will also be shared with the Risk audience on their podcast feed. The two episodes are designed to complement one another. One is a deeply personal story, and the other explores many of the themes that emerge from that story through a conversation about identity, grief, healing, and what it means to continue finding yourself through the dogs in your life. I hope you'll take the time to listen to both episodes. And if you enjoy today's story, I encourage you to check out Risk and the incredible work John, Kate, and the entire team are doing. Enjoy the episode.

Hosts Introduce Still Dog People

SPEAKER_01 1:47

On this episode of Risk, you'll hear Jill Carliner.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

And he's squeaky and his tongue is coming out. Oh yeah, I think we made a big mistake.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

And you'll hear Kate LaSala.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

That's me.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Hey, that's my wife.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Hey, that's my husband.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

And me, I'm John LaSala, your guest host, along with Kate, on the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. Hey Kate, recognize this music? I sure do. What is it? Snow Queen! It's Snow Queen!

SPEAKER_03 2:41

It's Snow Queen!

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Yes! It's music I wrote back in like 1998 or 99, somewhere around there. Music for a dance theater production called The Snow Queen.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

That means we're really old. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

But that's not what we're here to talk about. We're here to talk about the first of two episodes coming out this week called Still Dog People. The second one comes out on Thursday, but this one features a story by Jill Carliner. After which, Kate and I are going to talk about it. Because it's about dogs. And we're dog people. We're dog people. But Kate, even more so because. Well, you tell me why. Kate, why are you here?

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Because I'm a professional dog trainer and behavior consultant, and I'm even a pet death duela.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, yeah. Okay, we'll talk more about that later, but for now, let's get into Jill's story. But I do need to give everyone a heads up. There is blood in the story. There is a life-threatening situation involving a kid. There is trauma. But you've heard worse on risk at this point, I know. You'll be fine. But still, heads up. So, here is Jill Carliner with a story we're calling Two Truths.

The Night Everything Changes

SPEAKER_02 4:24

My four and a half-year-old twin boys had just finished eating dinner, and we were playing outside in the front yard to wait until Dad got home from work. And while we're playing on these boulders in front of my house, the big kids from next door came out to see what we were doing. These were the six and eight-year-old boys that lived next door, and my kids called them the big kids. And they'd moved up from the city a couple of months before, but they'd never really shown any interest in my children before. So on this night, when they came out to see what we were doing, my kids were mesmerized because when you're four, attention from a six-year-old and an eight-year-old is like magic. On this night, they asked if my boys wanted to play in their backyard. Now, like I said, this family had moved up from the city a few months prior, and one of the first things they did when they moved in was to rip out this fence of bushes that separated our properties. So my backyard and their backyard was just this one big giant space. But we, even though we could see into their yard, we'd never played with them before. So when they asked my boys to come play, I remember my kids looking up with like the most magical and hopeful looks in their eyes. And I said, sure, why not? And as we made our way to the big kid's backyard, one of my boys, Jacob, said to me in his cute little four-year-old voice, Mommy, is this something special? And I said, Yes, Jakey, this is very special. So we're in the backyard. The big kids have a really nice setup. They had swings and monkey bars and slides, things we didn't have in our yard yet. And they climb on their swings, and my boys climb on a teeter-totter. And the four of them, they're just hanging out, they're playing, and I'm only I'm the only adult watching them. And while I'm supervising, I'm just thinking of all the things I need to do before bedtime. So I tell my boys that I'm gonna go inside. You see, I have this big picture window over my kitchen sink. With the bushes gone, I had a perfect view into the big kids' backyard. So I told the boys I was gonna go in like I've done before, and they gave me, okay, mommy, and they were good kids. They knew to stay in the yard. So I'm at my kitchen sink and I'm cleaning up their dinner dishes and I'm thinking about all the things, you know, that need to get done, getting dinner on the table for my husband and me. And I see the big kids get off their swings and leave the vision of the picture window. And moments later, I see my kids get off the teeter-totter, and they also leave the vision of the picture window. So I figure I need to go check out what's happening.

A Child Dog Attack

SPEAKER_02 7:03

But in the seconds that it took me to go from my sink to my sliding glass door, I heard this blood-curdling scream just pierce that spring night. And I run outside to see what made that sound, and I see my Jacob toddling towards me, and he is covered in and gushing blood. I run to him and I scoop him in my arms, and my first aid in CPR training kicks in, and I scream at the top of my lungs, call 911, call 911, call 911, hoping someone in my neighborhood would hear me scream. And as I'm screaming, I look over to the big kid's yard, and on their porch is a woman standing there. I think she's their housekeeper, and she is just staring at the ground. She's not looking at me, she's not moving, she's definitely not reaching for a phone. So I realize I need to take matters into my own hands, and while I still have Jacob in my arms, I run in my house, I grab my cordless phone to call 911, and I run on the front lawn to wait for them. And the whole time I have him in my arms, and his eyes are open and he's breathing. But he's not talking, he's not crying, he's just kind of limp in my arms, and he's staring into like nothingness. And as I'm rocking him on the front lawn, my nose is filled with that coppery metallic smell of blood. Our bodies are glued together from the stickiness of the blood. And I just keep saying over and over again, it's gonna be okay, it's gonna be okay, it's gonna be okay. And I realize I'm saying this more for myself than for him because he just can't process anything. I don't know why he's bleeding. I don't know what happened to him. I don't know if my son is dying in my arms. All I know is that we need immediate medical attention. And I am so relieved when I hear the sounds of the ambulance. So the paramedics assess him and tell me that we're gonna go to the trauma hospital in my county. And when we get there, the doctors examine him and the police speak to me, and the police had been at my house also, and they're able to tell me what happened. Apparently, the big kids got off their swings to go in their house for some apple juice boxes. And my kids, with the promise of apple juice boxes, got off the teeter-totter to wait. But when the big kids went in their house, they left their sliding glass door open, and their Akita ran outside. Akitas are bred to be Japanese bear hunting dogs. They are big, they're powerful, they're aggressive, they're extremely territorial. And this family often kept their dog chained to the shed in their yard. And when this dog ran out and saw my little boy standing in his yard, he just knocked him down and started attacking him until their housekeeper pulled the dog off of him. Turns out the dog bit Jacob on his shoulder and on his back and on his arm. But the most significant injury was this like three-inch by five-inch flap of skin that was just shorn from his head. Picture the way you open a can of sardines, the way you kind of like roll the lid of the tin down. That's what the dog did to my son's head. So the plastic surgeon who examined him was hopeful that if we could retrieve this skin, he'd be able to reattach it. And they radioed back to the house where the police were. And it turns out the neighbors had come home from work and cleaned up the blood and thrown away the bloody rags and my son's skin with his beautiful little hair attached to it into a garbage in their shed. So the skin was brought to the hospital and Jacob was rushed into emergency surgery. And my husband and I were at his bedside when he woke up from anesthesia, and he was in that state where his eyes were open and he could talk, but he wasn't fully conscious. And his little body just started shaking, and he started crying out, No, no, the dog, stop! And it was chilling to stand there and watch my little boy have these flashbacks, and there was nothing I could do to stop the visions that were going on in his head.

Burn Unit And Night Terrors

SPEAKER_02 11:37

So unfortunately, that first surgery didn't take. The skin was too badly damaged, and Jacob ended up spending almost two weeks in a burn unit in the hospital. And he had multiple surgeries and multiple medical procedures. A lot of the time there, though, he was just this cute little four-year-old boy. He'd sit on his bed playing with toys, watching movies, his head was wrapped in this big turban of bandages. But the nights were really hard. He would wet the bed every night, and he would wake up with these night terrors, screaming, No, no, the dog, every night. And during the day, as happy as he was when he was playing, if anyone came to the room, he would just start crying and shaking in fear. In an instant, his little world went from being this safe, happy place to being a world that's dangerous and unpredictable and hurtful. And as much as we tried to protect him and tell him things were okay, he just couldn't differentiate anything that was coming at him as being safe or harmful. It was so sad to watch. I hoped that when we got home from the hospital we could return to some normal routine. And for the most part, we did our best. My kids went back to preschool, and my husband and I went back to work, and taking care of Jacob's injuries just became part of our daily routine. But the thing is, my kids, both of my kids, developed this primal fear of dogs. We could be anywhere. We'd be playing in the house, walking on the street, even driving in the car. And they'd hear a dog or see a dog, and they would start crying and screaming in fear. And it seemed to just keep getting worse and worse.

Exposure Therapy With Puppies

SPEAKER_02 13:37

And I knew we couldn't live this way. So I happened to be a child psychologist by training. And when my husband and I got married and we had kids, I promised him I would never practice my profession on our children. But I needed to take back my words. So I prescribed exposure therapy. There was this cute little ma and pa pet store in town that sold these little tiny teacup puppies. So on a Sunday morning, a couple of weeks after Jacob's dogbite, we bundled the kids in the car, we went to Bagels for breakfast, and then we took them to this pet store. And we get inside and we each hold a boy up to the display counter where the puppies were. And the minute they realized what they were looking at, they started squirming and crying and begging us to take them out of the store. But we kept doing this. Every Sunday morning we'd go for bagels for breakfast and we'd go to the pet store. They'd protest, but we would do this anyway. And after a while, they were okay looking at the puppies. There was even this one time that the owner of the store was able to hold a puppy in his hand and they pet it. But you know, this was a puppy that was the size of a hamster. So while they were okay, they were still really scared of dogs. So I knew we needed to up our game. There is a seeing eye dog agency in our county that relies on volunteers to do a lot of the work with their dogs. So we signed up to become puppy home socializers. It was a program where you would get to take eight-week-old lab puppies home to your house for a couple of days and play with them and socialize them. So we signed up, we went for some training, and on a Friday afternoon, all four of us, the boys were kind of into it, all four of us drove about an hour to pick up everything we needed and pick up the puppies. And we get home and we set up this X Pen and we lay out the newspapers and put down some toys and water. And I take a puppy out of the carry case. And we tell you, an eight-week-old lab puppy is just about the cutest thing in the whole wide world. His little body was wiggling back and forth, and his pencil thin tail is going a million miles a minute, and he's squeaky, and his tongue is coming out. And I put him down on the newspaper, and the minute their feet hit the floor, my kids ran screaming out of the kitchen, into the living room. They climbed on the back of the couch and wanted nothing to do with these puppies all weekend. I think we made a big mistake. But we kept doing this about once a month. For years, we would bring puppies into our house. And it got to the point where my kids were able to hold them and cuddle them and play with them. I mean, they were even okay when the puppies nibbled on them with their little razor-sharp puppy teeth. So this was really good. Uh so it was a July 4th holiday, about two and a half years after Jacob's dog bite. And we had puppies in the house for about five days this time because of the long holiday weekend. And when we returned them, we all kind of looked at each other and were like, huh, our house feels empty. We miss having the puppies in the house. And it was like we knew that we wanted a

Fostering Future Guide Dogs

SPEAKER_02 17:02

dog. We were ready. So we signed up to become foster parents to breeding dogs through Guiding Eyes for the Blind. These were dogs that were raised to be seeing eye dogs, but when they were about a year old, instead of going into graduate school to learn how to use a harness, they were chosen to be breeders because they were the smartest and the best well-trained, they performed well in their tests. Basically, we got the Rolls-Royce of dogs. And that is how we got Zoe and then Queenie and Eileen and Nilla, and currently we have Nani. It has been over 20 years that we've been fostering breeding dogs for guiding eyes for the blind. And my kids have grown up taking care of pregnant dogs, taking care of and playing with puppies. We've even had the litters in our house for weeks at a time. One of our dogs in particular, Eileen, she was a really good breeder. She had big litters and her puppies always did well with testing. But when she was six and she was retired, we adopted her. We always adopted them when they were retired. It was like she knew that her job was done. And she didn't want to be touched anymore. And no one could pet her or scratch her behind the ears without her getting super anxious, except for Jacob. He was the only one that she liked cuddle and snuggle and hug. She spent most of his teenage adolescent years sleeping in his bed, spooned up against him like a girlfriend. It was like they knew that there was so much safety and comfort and security in each other. Their bond was so beautiful. My boy has recently turned 30. It's been over 25 years since Jacob's dogbite. If you were to meet him, the first thing you would notice are the visible scars on his face. He continues to carry visible scars and he will for the rest of his life. What you would not notice initially are the emotional scars that he continues to carry. You know, at four, he experienced this childhood trauma that was just unthinkable. And unfortunately, it changed the trajectory of his life. We would see time and time again how he would just react to things in such a way that he thought he was under attack or was being hurt or harmed. And no matter how much my husband and I protected him and tried to keep him safe and tried to give him the coping skills, it was just a part of his DNA. It's just how he views the world. You know, I've had to learn to live with two truths. Truth number one, I wish my son had never been attacked by a dog. I wish he never had to go through this trauma. I wish our family never had to go through all of this. Truth number two, for over 25 years, we've had a relationship with the most incredible dogs that have gone on to do remarkable things and have saved people's lives by being coming guide dogs. You know, people have always said to us how selfless we were for fostering dogs. And I would smile and say thank you because yes, I was doing a volunteer job. But let me tell you, there was nothing selfless about it. It was very selfish. We got so much purpose and joy and love in our lives from the dogs that we've had. And yes, it's not lost on me that the thing that has brought my son and our family the biggest trauma also brings us so much love and joy. And these are just two truths that I live with.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

But

Living With Two Truths

SPEAKER_01 21:22

first, check out this little review I spotted that someone named Boggle Queen left on Apple Podcasts. It's titled Expands My Perspective. I have been listening to Risk for a long time. I'd appreciate your authenticity. Intimacy. Episode and uninterrupted story? I'm not sure what was meant by that, but I hope this one worked for you, Boggle Queen. And hey, you, listeners out there, if you haven't given us a five-star rating or left a review yet, get on it! Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podchaser. These reviews are one way you can send us your love and support, and even get yourself heard on the podcast for absolutely free. For sound designing that story. You're not sure?

SPEAKER_03 23:02

It's the sorceress!

SPEAKER_01 23:04

The sorceress? What do you mean the sorceress? What's that from?

SPEAKER_03 23:08

From the snow queen!

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yes, it is. It's more of my music from the snow queen. But never

What Trauma Changes In Us

SPEAKER_01 23:17

mind that. Let's talk about Jill's story. What did you think? But wait, first, in case anyone listening to this episode didn't hear the episode you did with me back in 2024 called Dogs. Why don't you give me like all your bona fides? You know, who made you the expert of dogs around here?

SPEAKER_03 23:39

Uh, I am a multi-credentialed behavior consultant, and I have more letters behind my name than are in my name.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Okay, so chill story. What did you think? And like what were your reactions while listening to it?

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Yeah, so my focus is fear and aggression and anxiety cases. So I deal with a lot of dog bites. So I had a lot of questions and thoughts about this story. But my first question is do we know how Jacob is now? Do we know what his relationship with dogs is now, like after their last fall of it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

And that was like a many years ago, too, right? So yeah, we do. Because when I was recording the story with Jill, I asked her some questions afterwards, and she addressed that a bit. Uh, didn't end up in the story, but I do have the recording. So let's listen to it right now.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

About a year ago, Jacob and his girlfriend adopted a dog. So he also has a dog. And you know, it dogs continue to be his sense of comfort and safety. I mean, she truly is an emotional support dog for him. It's just so interesting that, you know, the thing that, like I said, was the biggest trauma brings him so much joy in his life. But it was a lot of work to get to that.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

All right.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Okay, so that's amazing. And I think it's a good place to start, really. I feel like on the surface, this story is very clearly about trauma, but underneath it all, it feels like it's a story about relationships, like the relationship that her kids wanted to have with the big kids next door. Um, it's about that very brief and very traumatic relationship with this neighbor's dog. Um, and then it's about relationships with all of these fosters and dogs that they ended up adopting. And now his relationship with this very special dog that he has, this ESA dog that he has. And I think that trajectory is just so beautiful. Um, you know, that's what Jill said that this event changed the trajectory of his life, is something that I say when I talk about Boo Boo, who we lost two years ago, that without Boo-Boo coming into our lives, that I wouldn't be a trainer today. I wouldn't be a death doula, that she changed the trajectory of my life. And that's exactly what Jill said about this experience for Jacob. And I think that's a really interesting sort of juxtaposition of like that traumatic situation that he had with this dog changed his trajectory in a negative, turning positive way. But Boo-Boo coming into our lives changed the trajectory of our lives in a very clearly positive way. And that I've gone on to now help, you know, over 3,000 dogs because of this one dog coming in my life, and that they as a family fostered all of these dogs and changed not only the lives of those dogs, but the people that those dogs then went on to be service animals for.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Yeah. A awful, tragic thing happened, and so much more good than bad has come from it in the long run. Now, you you do a lot of work with grief around losing a pet, but I take it you see some parallels to what Jill's family went through, right?

Finding Meaning In Grief

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Yeah, yeah. And in my dual work, that's something that I sort of focus on and try to help people understand. You know, everyone's heard of the stages of grief. But David Kessler is a grief expert who worked with Kubler Ross, he co-authored a book with her, and they sort of came up with this sixth stage of grief that nobody really talks about. But for David Kessler, that sixth stage is finding meaning. So taking this loss or this trauma, and what sort of meaning can you pull out of that? So when I talk to my dual clients, I'm I'm often trying to get them to shift from grief to gratitude. How can we be grateful? Obviously, no one's ever grateful that a bad thing happened. And that's that's Jill's main point is like, I wish this never happened. But because it happened, all of this beauty and and positivity came out of that. So there's definitely this shift of finding meaning from this trauma. And even without having big trauma like that, I think when we lose an animal or we lose any relationship, we can try to find something that we're grateful for because of that experience. So even when I'm working with clients who've gone through something traumatic, like a behavioral euthanasia for a really difficult, you know, animal that had significant behavior issues, often they can be thankful for the fact that that animal maybe taught them patience or taught them empathy or taught them how to read dog body language better, how to more safely interact with dogs. Um, and that's something that that person maybe would never have learned. And now that they've learned that, they carry those lessons with them into future relationships, whether it's with other humans or other other dogs.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Yeah, yeah. Let's let's circle back to the incident, the inciting incident of the story.

Supervision And Dog Bite Prevention

SPEAKER_01 29:09

What are your thoughts about a child being put in such a predicament? I know you have thoughts on this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Uh I have I have a lot of opinions. Um, so yeah, this is something that I talk to clients about. I do a lot, I'm a family pause licensed educator. And so I do a lot of dog kid situations, whether it's pre-baby prep, meaning there's a dog at home and the family is bringing home a human baby. So I'll help the family prepare the dog at home to accept the newborn. Um, but I also do a lot of dog kid aggression cases. So I am constantly talking about the role of supervision. And we tend to think of supervision as like black or white, either we're supervising or we're not supervising. But FamilyPause has five stages of supervision that they talk about. And it runs from sort of fully awake, aware adult supervision, which is active, to absent supervision, which could be you think you're supervising because you're in the same space, but you're sleeping. And if you're sleeping, you're not fully awake, you're not aware that whatever's happening between the dog and the kid are happening. So I feel like this situation, and then there's gray areas in between. There's reactive supervision and passive supervision, and there's there's other steps in between. But I feel like this situation was an absent supervision case where Jill thought she was supervising from her kitchen window. She very clearly pointed that out in the story. But as we can see, bites happen in a fraction of a second. And if you are not physically there, not six feet away, not five feet away, a lot of people make the mistake that they think they're in the same room. They think they're supervising. I'm right here, I'm right in the kitchen, and my back is to the dog and the kid. So if something's gonna happen, I can intervene. But bites happen so quickly that if you are not physically between the dog and the kid, you're never gonna be able to stop it. So being a house away looking out a picture window over her sink as she's doing dishes or whatever she was doing, that is not good enough supervision.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Um, but I don't think she even knew the dog was there, though, right?

SPEAKER_03 31:26

Well, she pointed out that that the dog was often tied to the shed.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

So I think they knew there was a dog, but maybe they just thought it was away. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

There's she didn't see the dog, it was around, right?

SPEAKER_03 31:42

Yeah, she didn't know it was around. And clearly it was it had probably been in the house. And then when the kids went in the house to get the juice boxes, he slipped out. And you know, management always fails. That's something else that I that I talk to clients about. Like people think, like, oh, we'll just keep the dog inside, we'll just manage that situation. But we're humans and management always fails. Like it might be okay for a long period of time, but at some point a door is gonna be left open, a gate's gonna be left open. Humans make mistakes, and so management cannot be your only solution if you're living with a dangerous or an aggressive dog. Yeah, even well socialized, quote unquote, good dogs should not be left unsupervised with kids. So I think we come from a place of thinking that dogs should, good dogs should put up with whatever kids throw at them. They should be able to pull their tail and pull their ears and they should be able to climb on top of them, and the dog shouldn't react at all. But that is not realistic and it's not safe. And when we look at dog bite statistics, over 50% of dog bites that happen happen to children. And the most, the largest percentage of those cases are boys between five and nine years old.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

So having young kids, they may not have fully developed motor skills. They are certainly not going to be able to read dog body language. A lot of adults don't know how to read dog body language. So we can't entrust that a kid is going to be able to read warning signs that a dog is getting stressed out. But I don't think that that piece doesn't necessarily apply to this case. It sounds like the dog was probably already aggressive and saw an opportunity and got loose and just sort of rushed out and was not social or or friendly with strangers. So that sounds like that was the underlying sort of cause of this situation. But whenever there's kids around, there needs to be heavy focus on management and separation and supervision.

Pet Death Doula Work Explained

SPEAKER_01 33:43

So you mentioned a couple of times your your doula work, but to be clear, we're talking death doula, end-of-life doula, not like birth doula, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Right. And for pets, not for humans. So I am a companion animal, end-of-life doula, death doula, we like to call ourselves. It's shorter and cleaner. Um, that means that we do las, death doulas provide emotional support in this case, even though it's surrounding the pet loss. The support obviously is for the people. We can do lots of take on lots of roles. We can focus on sort of quality of life assessment, helping navigate that before period, that anticipatory grief period leading up to the animal's death. We can help with arrangements like coordinating a vet to come to the house to do that at home euthanasia. We focus a lot on sort of legacy work and memorialization. Um, and I think for this story, it's really interesting because all of these dogs in their family, the the ones that they fostered and eventually adopted, and certainly the Akita that caused this tremendous injury, all leave this long-lasting impact after they're gone. This trauma that this one dog caused left this legacy of beautiful things behind, you know, in that wake. Um, and that legacy isn't just those physical scars that he has, but the emotional scars. And that's something in my dual work that I help especially with stigmatized losses like behavioral euthanasia. And I'm gonna assume in this case, that Akita was euthanized. He should have been if he wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Yep. And that's another little clip I have. I I asked Jill exactly that question, and this is what she had to say.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

And in case you're wondering, the neighbors put the dog down. They were immigrants to this country, so I'm not sure they knew some of American cultures. About a week after Jacob got home from the hospital, they came to the door with a fruit basket that had like fruit and crackers and cheese and a bottle of champagne. It was just it was just really weird. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Yeah. That's bizarre.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

That's bizarre, yeah. You know, I people people in general don't know how to process death and grief. That's part of the role that duelists play as helping.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

People and animals.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

Exactly, is to sort of help people normalize this. And we're we're we're trying to bring death work and talking about death into the forefront so it's not a taboo topic. So I clearly these neighbors knew they they were responsible for this trauma inflicted on Jill's son and her family, and were in some way trying to make amends or or apologize for that. Um, and if there's a cultural difference there, you know, they just didn't quite know how to properly do that. Um, so it came off a little awkward, I think. But people don't like to talk about death, they don't like to plan for death.

Planning Ahead For Pet Care

SPEAKER_03 36:59

That's one of the things that doulas do is try to help sort of, for lack of a better word, get your papers in order. Um, so thinking about if your 15-year-old dog has cancer, what treatments are you willing to do or not willing to? Are you willing to do MRIs? Are you willing to do CAT scans? Like talking about these things, not when they're 15 and you're in the crux of making these big emotional decisions, but talking about these things when they're a puppy, when they're, you know, two or five, and constantly evaluating quality of life over, you know, that dog's lifetime because it changes year to year. Um, and not waiting for a big crisis to start having these conversations. So I think I've got some free downloads on my website. I have sort of the equivalent of a living will, like an advanced care directive for pets, for people to start those conversations. And I like to say that those are living documents that they should be revisited sort of every year or two so that you can figure out what's changed. Um, making a plan for your pets. What if your pets outlive you?

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

We think about this for senior citizens, but anyone can get in a car accident or anyone can lose a job or anyone can have, you know, a serious illness. So, what is your care plan for your animals if you are physically or otherwise unable to take care of them? And not just assuming that friends and family are going to step up because that's not really a fair burden to place on these people who didn't choose to take on a pet. So having a care plan in place, I know that I am in two of my clients who have turned into friends' wills to be caretakers for their dogs if something were to happen to them. And they are young people, they're in, you know, they're in their 30s. So they have proactively made arrangements for their dogs in case something were to happen. And I think that's something enough that not a lot of people do.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

And you said you have those available somewhere. People can download them.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Yep.

Free Resources And Listener Feedback

SPEAKER_03 39:04

I have on my website rescued by training.com. At the top, there's a free resources tab, and there's a whole bunch of free downloads in there. Um, I also have a free dog body language course in there. Um, so if you like dogs or have a dog and you or just want to get to know dogs better. Exactly. Just want to learn language how to speak dog a little bit better. It takes about 30 minutes to go through it. But it's a really great, if I do say so myself, free resource to um learn that, you know, kissing, dogs licking you, what we call kissing and wagging their tail is not always a sign of a happy dog. Common misconception.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

So that's what Kate had to say. It went on for like two hours because you just won't stop talking, but I had to cut it down to the mere the minutes that you heard. But more importantly, I want to know what you, the listeners, have to say. Weigh in. Come tell us what you thought. Share your dog stories, even the ones that don't bite. You can email me at john at risk-show.com, or even better, post on our private Facebook fans discussion group, or on the R slash risk podcast subreddit, or Spotify, whatever scritches your britches. I don't know. Whatever scritches your britches. And if you're gonna post on social media about it, just hit it with the hashtag IHeardItOnRisk. Now listen, I set up top, this is just one episode coming out this week called Still Dog People. On Thursday, there'll be another one. And that one will feature a story from a different podcast called The Bitey End of the Dog, which I just happen to also work on. And it'll feature a not too different story, but from a very different kind of perspective. Tune in. You'll see. But that'll be Thursday. Whereas today, well, today's the day.

Next Story Teaser And Sign Off

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Say it, Kate. Take a rest. That's right.