The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Crossing the Line: Thresholds and Leash Reactivity with Jessica Wheatcraft
Ever wondered why some dogs transform from perfect companions at home to reactive dynamos the moment a leash gets clipped on? Jessica Wheatcraft returns to discuss the complex world of leash reactivity with clarity and compassion that both dog guardians and professionals will appreciate.
This conversation goes beyond simplistic solutions by exploring the subtle body language cues that signal stress long before barking begins. Jessica expertly differentiates leash reactivity from aggression, explaining how a dog's motivation on leash often stems from frustration rather than intimidation. "The dog's behavior on a leash can be very different than their behavior off of a leash to the same exact stimulus," she notes, highlighting how context dramatically changes a dog's responses.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is the practical framework Jessica provides for understanding thresholds. Rather than viewing them as single breaking points, she describes thresholds as doorways or transitions where behavior changes in observable ways. Learn to recognize when your dog crosses these thresholds through subtle signs like increased respiration, closed mouth, facial tension, or raised tail carriage. This awareness allows handlers to intervene effectively before reactions escalate!
About Jessica:
https://www.jessicawheatcraft.com/about/
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Hey friends, in this episode I'm joined by my good friend and colleague, the brilliant Jessica Wheatcraft, for an in-depth look at one of the most common and often misunderstood behavior challenges, which is leash reactivity. We explore not just what leash reactivity looks like on the surface, but the emotional and environmental underpinnings that drive it, from the subtle signs of stress to the compounding effects of trigger stacking. Jessica shares a wealth of insight into how dogs experience the world on a leash and how we can help them navigate it more successfully. Jessica brings her years of experience and sharp insight into the nuanced world of reactivity, helping us unpack everything from stress thresholds and trigger stacking to vocalization, criteria setting and how enrichment can transform a reactive dog's world. We also talk about the critical role of coaching the human end of the leash and evolving skillset needed to support clients through these complex cases.
Speaker 1:Jessica is also an instructor for the Real Life Solutions Aggression in Dogs course and gives mentor sessions for AggressiveDogcom. She's a certified dog behavior consultant and has loads of experience in these cases. And before we jump into today's episode, a quick heads up If you're looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, head on over to AggressiveDogcom, because we've got something for everyone. For pet pros, there's the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available on aggression, packed with expert insights and CEUs. For dog guardians, check out Real Life Solutions, which is a practical course for everyday challenges like leash reactivity, which Jessica covers, and dog-to-dog aggression, dog-to-human aggression and resource guarding. And if you want full access to expert webinars, live mentor sessions and exclusive discounts, the Ultimate Access membership is just $29.95 a month. You'll also find info on the 2025 Aggression and Dogs Conference happening in Charlotte this September. That can all be found at aggressivedogcom. Check it out after the show.
Speaker 1:Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. This week I have a repeat guest. Jessica Weecraft is back and we're going to be diving deep into the topic of leash reactivity again. We took a deep dive last time. We're going to take a deeper dive this time because we want to really get into nuances of some of the topics and concepts that sometimes don't get talked about enough in this topic. So welcome back to the show, jessica.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Mike. I am thrilled to be back.
Speaker 1:It's great to have you back and, as you guys know, jessica has spoken at the Aggression and Dogs Conference and this is her second time back on the podcast because she is an expert on this topic. So, first thing, in talking to an expert, I'm going to ask them to define what leash reactivity is, because there's a lot of definitions out there for this and I think people will sometimes say well, all dogs are reactive because they're reacting to stimuli in their environment, or the term leash reactivity is kind of nicer to say than leash aggression.
Speaker 1:So you have all these different reasons for either calling it reactivity or not, but how does Jessica Wheatcraft define leash reactivity?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you bring up a good point that, depending on who you ask, there are going to be different definitions for what reactivity means.
Speaker 2:And I think for me, when I think of reactivity, specifically leash reactivity, some of the things that differentiate that from, for example, you mentioned leash aggression, is that the dog's intention or maybe we can think about like the dog's motivation when they're reacting on leash is not always with the goal of intimidating another dog or wanting the other dog to go away.
Speaker 2:And I think, if we're considering when dogs are using aggression or aggressive behaviors, a lot of times their intent is to control something or to threaten or to maintain, you know, a resource or whatever it could be. And with leash reactivity, I often see dogs who are likely experience frustration and they actually really want to get access to whatever they're seeing, and so I tend to think of leash reactivity being more of a reaction that is on leash and it typically involves vocalizations, so it could be barking, growling, shrieking even, and there's typically other reactions as well, such as lunging on leash or really pulling and straining, and sometimes you will see other behaviors like a heart stare you know the commissures of the mouth pulled forward some more threatening gestures. It could really encompass many things, but how I really think of this is that the dog's behavior on a leash can be very different than their behavior off of a leash to the same exact stimulus, and it's the leash that's creating that change in behavior, and so, yeah, so I think that's kind of how I think of it.
Speaker 1:That's a good distinction, I like it's almost like context specific to the leash, because we might have some dogs that are, you know, hate other dogs when they're off leash as well. So then we'd probably label it something else, like dog to dog aggression or, you know, hate other dogs when they're off leash as well so then we'd probably label it something else, like dog to dog aggression or, you know, dog directed aggression.
Speaker 1:So that's a good distinction and that kind of segues to our next topic, which is thresholds. Because when we think typically of thresholds that's another label, that's at all kinds of definitions. So when we typically think of thresholds we think of the distance from something, or might be when the dog starts reacting. But again, how do you define thresholds?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, you're right. Most of the time when people think of thresholds, they think of it as my dog being over threshold, meaning they are, have some sort of reaction on leash, and they often think that that reaction when they see the reaction, it's more outward displays of behavior that are more obvious to them, whether it's vocalizing or lunging, and people will often perceive that as being well. Now my dog is over threshold because I'm seeing these behaviors. And thresholds are far more nuanced than that, because dogs can go over many thresholds.
Speaker 2:Thresholds are really just a metaphor to describe a change in the dog's behavior and sometimes, when I try to explain these concepts to my clients, I will often use the example of a threshold of a door, because a lot of people are familiar with a very physical threshold in the sense of you're inside of your house and then you have this threshold of the door and now you are outside of your house. That's a physical threshold, but then there's also changes in your dog's behavior. I don't know any dog who does not change their behavior from the moment they're inside their house to the moment they're outside of their house. So there's many different types of thresholds and those are important to distinguish or just be aware of, because the more that you have an understanding of what your dog looks like when they are under a threshold or essentially feeling more relaxed, then the better chance you have to set your dog up for success.
Speaker 1:So you kind of look at it as what that individual dog is doing from an observable behavior standpoint for your clients. So you can say for this dog they start huffing or growling when they've stepped over that threshold. Or we can really say the stimulus has stepped over their threshold in a way. But would you say, then there's some observable behavior in a particular dog. That's how you define that they've gone over their threshold.
Speaker 2:Yes, there are often specific behaviors that individual dogs will commonly present when they begin to go over a threshold, and I think another way to even break this down would be one there's a threshold of preceding the stimulus right, and the stimulus could be anything. It could be that your dog stepped out and there was a scent that they picked up on. So there's one threshold that your dog crossed because prior to that they had not picked up on the scent. So there's that Prior to that, they had not picked up on the scent. So there's that. There's also this threshold of where the stimulus becomes more aversive to the dog, and I think that is where we start to see those signs of a dog what you mentioned, like huffing, or I often tend to see things like the dog's tail raised up over their back, so their tail going from a more neutral position to their tail starting to go raised up over their back, so their tail going from a more neutral position to their tail starting to go up and over their back.
Speaker 2:I will frequently see things like the dog picking up their pace and, in terms of them being more relaxed and walking next to you, that they start to pick up their pace. You often see an increase in their breathing rate so that's another one. And you might see some things around their face. So you might see things like they might close their mouths, they might start to have more tension around their faces, meaning like a wrinkle in between their forehead. So a lot of these things can be really, really subtle. But when you start to see those signs, then you know that you're reaching this threshold where your dog is starting to have an aversion to the stimulus, and so that is that part where it's most important to understand what your individual dog or if you're a trainer and you're helping your client like. What does this individual dog start to look like when they reach that point?
Speaker 1:And in terms of the threshold, let's draw that imaginary line, the doorway that you explained. Where would you put the dog in that line if we start to see those very subtle signals and they might be overt signals to some of us but the increased respiration, the wrinkle between their forehead, like are they already at threshold, slightly under it, getting a little bit past it at that point, or does it depend on the dog?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that they have crossed a threshold. Did it cross the threshold so much to now where we're seeing a larger reaction? I guess maybe we can think of it as like a scale right, like they're continuing to go on this scale where when they are crossing this threshold, their response to that becomes greater and greater and greater. And so I would determine that once I start seeing a dog with, you know, their tail going up and over their back, or their mouth was nice and relaxed and open, and then they closed it really tightly, then I'm going to consider that dog is it is technically over a threshold? Is it over the threshold where that dog is already reacting, meaning like we're seeing those really outward displays of barking and lunging? No, but those things are often precursors to those behaviors, which is also why it's really important to take note of those.
Speaker 1:Now let me unpack this a little further. So think of that threshold. It's like one of those old sci-fi movies, I don't know. It's like you get the doorway and it's just up on this big building, a wall, and you can. Once you step out of that threshold, there's no floor on the other side. So you can kind of picture that. Do you think that's a fair analogy to help our clients understand that that threshold is important? Because once the dog steps over there, it's sometimes hard to get them back because they're already falling into the space. We don't want them to.
Speaker 2:So, or is that too doom and gloom? You think? When you start to notice those subtle signs and you're really aware of them, then they are much easier to redirect than when the dog crosses the threshold, where they are in a full-blown reaction. So it's much easier to reach the dog when they're at that point.
Speaker 1:So, in a way too, it's also who's looking at that threshold and determining if it's a bad thing or not.
Speaker 1:So the dog could be saying I'm about to step off, whereas the human's like, all right, you already stepped off that ledge, and observation of the behaviors and how it's feeling for the dog, in a sense. So in that regard, what do you do to help clients where the dog gives very little signaling? So their threshold is, it's hard to see them creeping up to that line, right. So they maybe don't give you a ton of respiration rate changes or they're just, you know, so kind of separating out the sudden environmental contrast. So, like you know, of course, if somebody comes around the corner with another dog, a lot of dogs are just going to go from zero to 60, right, but let's say it's a not so gradual progression, even at a distance. So the instant they see another dog from 100 yards away, they get explosive and it's really hard to see any kind of subtle, those breaths, you know, the increase of respiration or the mouth closing or those little things. When it comes to the threshold topic, what do you do to help clients there?
Speaker 2:A few things. So one of the things that I point out to my clients and help them understand is I do a lot of comparisons of the dog's behavior when they're more relaxed compared to when they're not, and so I call it doing a body scan. And so when I'm out with my clients, they say, hey, let's, we're going to pause, we're going to do a quick body scan of your dog. And this is often when the dog is pretty darn relaxed, you know, there's no triggers around, they feel pretty good about the environment, and what does your dog look like right now? Like what are the behaviors that your dog does when they are feeling more relaxed? Or the behaviors that your dog displays. So I always take note of those things and then, as we, you know, happen to see, or the dog again perceive something. I then point out the changes in the dog's behavior, like, hey, do you see that now the tail is starting to creep up. So I just make sure that I point those things out, because I think of learning dog body language as really very similar to learning any other language, and it's not something that you're going to get the first week or two that you're trying to learn this, and so I think us as professionals, we tend to forget how easy it is to, or we tend to forget how difficult it is for the average person to be able to look at their dog and pull out all of the different pieces that are really relevant, because it just is too many things to look at. So I like to try to point out certain things and then, especially if I see indicators that the dog consistently displays meaning it's usually the tail or it's the mouth, or it's them freezing or it's them staring for more than a few seconds there's usually something that the dog is consistently doing that I can then help my client notice and take note of. So that's one part of helping them understand, you know, understand thresholds with their dog, and the other part is okay.
Speaker 2:Well, if the dog is starting to display signs that they are going over threshold, now what do we do? And that is very dependent on the environment, right, like well, what is happening? Is this a dog who, for example, we're out walking and another dog appears and the direction of the dog is where it's walking away from us at a distance? Then we might just kind of linger where we are so that we're not continuing to go closer in the direction of that other dog, whereas if it's a dog that is not walking away from us and in fact it's turning towards us, then that dog that we are working with is going to need some guidance, and so we're probably going to call that dog away. We're going to change directions, we're going to do something to make sure that we're helping this dog not feel too stressed about that interaction and have the ability to still respond to us and ideally, you know, take food and do the training that we're out there to do, because when I am out there working with my clients, I am reinforcing behaviors that I want to see more of, and so that kind of also ties into thresholds when we think about okay, well, here we are, we are reinforcing the dog, not reacting. If we wanted to put a real big, blanket statement on that, and what that looks like will be very different to any dog, and which behaviors you chose, that's a whole nother thing because it's very individual to every dog. But that also plays into the topic of thresholds. Is okay, well, we're out. And what do we do? Most of the time, we're trying to cue the dog to do something else.
Speaker 1:And kind of in those contexts, we're playing around with that threshold line in a sense, because it's not static, right. So in that regard, sticking on the topic of thresholds I want to talk about antecedents or triggers in a minute, but sticking along the lines of thresholds so we're thinking about again the point at which the dog displays starts to display the target behaviors we find are going to be undesirable for us or for the dog, right? What about when there's thinking more outside just that moment? So when we think about thresholds, we might also think about the dog's tolerance for stress, you know, so that threshold there so this again.
Speaker 1:There's lots of ways of defining thresholds and we can think of the physiological threshold. How do you help clients navigate that aspect? So they maybe saw a trigger two hours ago, or they had a rough night's sleep, or they have some medical issue. You have all these other things that can impact threshold. What do you do to help clients figure that out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up, especially when it comes to, you know, the dog's physiological response to their environment, because that's a huge component of working really with any dog, but specifically with leash reactivity, because before you're about to go out in the world with your dog, you want to make sure that they're in a place where they can probably handle that. And so I do talk a lot with my clients in regards to their dog's routine and what stress looks like and what are things that they can change in their dog's routine to reduce stressors in that dog's life. And a lot of that comes down to exercise, enrichment and sleep. And I do tend to find that for dogs who, for example, aren't getting enough sleep, then they go out in the world and their thresholds are naturally lower because they are sleep deprived or if they happen to have some stressful experiences over the last few days, such as they went to the vet or perhaps maybe they were out and, let's say, they have a neighbor dog that is like their arch enemy. And I tend to see this a lot with my reactive dog clients where it's like, yeah, there's this one dog you know that my dog hates and it lives, you know three doors down and sometimes they're out and sometimes they're not. So let's say they happen to have something where, like that dog really, you know, came along the fence line and really antagonized my client's dog and they had this big rah, rah, rah, you know, through the fence and you know the client's trying to get their dog to move on, and so forth. So let's say that happened the day before.
Speaker 2:Well, in my experience and depending on that dog's level of resiliency, most dogs are going to not have recovered from that stressful experience even the next day.
Speaker 2:And I think that's something that for a lot of our clients, they don't always know how to make that connection between hey, your dog has had a stressful past few days and they might be watching their dog's behavior the day that the event happened, meaning you know that, for example, that fence fight between the other dogs, so they might be watching their dog's behavior that day and thinking, well, yeah, we eventually moved on and they were OK, and then they don't quite see how that might connect to the next day that they take their dog out and the moment that they step out their front door their dog is more hypervigilant, is maybe scanning more, is a little less responsive to some of the behaviors that the dog typically knows pretty well, and maybe even at that point their dog is eating and taking food, but they're using a lot of pressure when doing so, meaning they are being what a lot of us call being sharky, so they grab the treat from your hand pretty hard and that's a change in behavior.
Speaker 2:And those are all indicators that this is a dog that is already starting the walk, being over a threshold. And for some of our clients they might not really see the connection between the stress that the dog had experienced the days prior. They just think well, today my dog is having an off day, or today my dog's having a really hard time with this, and I don't know why.
Speaker 1:Yeah, such an important point you're bringing up here because it kind of has me thinking like you know, if we're working out, we need recovery days, right. So even though it could be something that's you know, we didn't do anything that's injurious or that hurt us, but we're working out, so we need some a day or two to let our muscles recover. Do you talk to clients about that too? Because as trainers, let's face it, many times we're like fingers crossed. The client does this, maybe like once or twice a week, right.
Speaker 1:But what if you have something that's really like, committed and they're like, yeah, I'm going to do this, I've got this awesome plan from Jessica, I'm going to go out and do this training and we're going to reinforce this album behaviors and they start to do like every day. Then maybe the dog still, you know we're not seeing these over-threshold moments, but we know that it's. The dogs need some time to process things, to recover. You know, even if it's not a super stressful situation, there's still some stress involved in learning. Do you ever have to talk to your clients about that aspect versus please do this right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Again, those are things that every dog is going to respond to their routine and their environment differently than the next one, and so I think that's why it's so important for us, as trainers, to really look at that dog's routine and also see how they respond when they're in the environments, and for us to be able to judge whether it's too stressful for that individual dog. And then what I like to do is I like to make some routine changes, but I don't like to have them be permanent, because I also want to be able to collect data. Okay, well, what happens if we just change this part? What changes in your dog's behavior do we see? So, for example, some of my clients I will see them and I will see their dog in action, out and about in public, and I think, wow, this dog is really overwhelmed. And so in that case, I will suggest we need to really reduce the time that your dog is spending in this particular environment. So let's come up with other time that your dog is spending in this particular environment. So let's come up with other environments for your dog to spend some time in that are not have all of these stressors that they're having to deal with, and let's do this for two weeks and let's see what happens with your dog.
Speaker 2:And then we also need to think of okay, well, what does a dog behave like when they're more relaxed? So we tend to see that they can rest more easily at home, meaning they're not pacing or constantly seem like they need something. Maybe they're relaxing more, they're able to sleep more soundly. Perhaps then, when we do expose that dog to the stressful environment again, we're starting to see more relaxed behaviors, meaning the dog is walking at a slower pace. They're more responsive to the training exercises that we have taught them. They also have more tolerance, in the sense which tolerance and thresholds, I think, often go kind of hand in hand that perhaps instead of seeing the dog at 100 feet and having a big reaction because that was really typical for them, maybe they're able to see the dog at 100 feet and having a big reaction because that was really typical for them, maybe they're able to see the dog at, you know, 75 feet and not have a reaction to them because they've had more rest and breaks from the environment.
Speaker 1:Yes, so that's a perfect way to segue into triggers, you know. So we've been talking about the thresholds and obviously triggers are going to impact thresholds. But in that regard of stepping back and thinking holistically about what might impact the dog's day, we talked about stressors and trying to make sure the dog's getting enough enrichment, exercise and sleep, which I love that you mentioned those things. What about helping clients recognize when the dog responds to a particular thing one day and then the next they're not and they're confused and we can get into nuances of how the dog recognizes that. Can they like? For instance, it's just you know, big, white, fluffy dogs that the dog has issues with, but then one day it's not, or one day it seems like it wasn't an intact male the dog could smell, like all these things Like how do you help clients understand? It's not just always distance, the exact distance from something, or the time of day or something, because there's a lot of ways to think about assessing that right.
Speaker 2:Yes, I know so many, so many ways. So I would say, when it comes to assessing the triggers, there's a lot of reactive dogs are reactive to more than just the sight of the dog. It's often more nuanced than that. It's not necessarily just the sight of the dog or the proximity, as you mentioned. So when I do like an inventory with my reactive dog clients, I also look for ways to find other areas that their dog also we can call it being reactive in. Although, for one example that I'll give, with dogs that alert to foot traffic that goes by their house, do we want to say they're reactive towards people that walk by their house? Sure, we can call it that. Or we could call it alert barking or a territorial barking, whatever it is. The dog is having a reaction, they're barking and it's likely a very similar reaction than what they would have when they're on a leash because again, they're behind this barrier. And so I take an inventory of okay, is it happening in the home anywhere? Is it happening in the car anywhere? Because those are also really common places that dogs are reactive on leash. We'll also react from those spaces. So I look for some things there to better determine okay, where else is the reactivity happening? Because we need to make sure that we're addressing that as well, because we can't just go in and try to modify the dog's behavior on leash when it's spending 30 to 40 minutes of every single day barking its head off at the front window. So that also needs to be addressed. So we do take all of those areas into consideration. So we do take all of those areas into consideration.
Speaker 2:Then I also help my clients understand more about the nuances of triggers, meaning when they notice dogs, why sometimes they would react and sometimes they don't. And in my experience it often comes down to a couple of things. So some of it is what the other dog is doing. Earlier I mentioned how if I'm out with a client and their dog and we see a dog but the dog is moving away from us I would say probably eight times out of 10, that's going to be a much easier situation for a reactive dog than if it's walking towards them. So the position of the other dog and what that dog is doing matters of the other dog and what that dog is doing matters. How much arousal or excitement that other dog is displaying also matters. Things like whether that dog is staring at my client's dog or not, matters. The size of the dog, the breed of the dog, all of those things matter.
Speaker 2:I would say that a lot of my reactive dog clients don't like dogs that have pointy ears. So German Shepherds and Huskies and those types of dogs, they don't like them and that's because you know they have pointy ears. They often, you know, can do a lot of staring and their tail carriage is naturally high and so for a dog who might take one look at a dog like that, they might think well, this dog is, you know, displaying a lot of forward body language in my direction, so I'm going to be more concerned about that dog when in reality the dog just carries itself that way, naturally not much they could do about it. So those are some, I think, more nuances that I tend to see with triggers, in terms of why the dog seems okay with something one time but not another, is the actual triggers themselves. But then, you know, we obviously should talk about trigger stacking as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that you call it an inventory you take and kind of determining a list of the triggers, which is so, so important, because sometimes we forget about some and we have to also measure the intensity and the differences. It's funny you mentioned, like the dogs with pointy ears, because my Doberman I adopted my Doberman he was cropped and docked and you know he got yelled at a lot by other dogs, I think just because it's hard to communicate with a Doberman that's been cropped and docked, you know, and there's no tail communication, very little nub. That communicates.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, so let's talk about trigger stacking, but we're going to do that right after the break. We're going to hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. Thanks for tuning in. I've got something really special just for podcast listeners. To celebrate the sixth annual Aggression and Dogs conference, I'm offering a limited time bundle deal that includes the Aggression in Dogs master course plus over 30 expert-led webinars on topics like how to break up a dog fight, dog-to-child directed aggression, fear-based aggression, dog-to-cat issues, genetics and behavior resource guarding dog-to-dog aggression and so much more. And behavior resource guarding dog-to-dog aggression and so much more. You'll learn from some of the most respected experts in our field, including Suzanne Clothier, dr Christina Spaulding, grisha Stewart, laura Monaco, torelli, trish McMillan and Dr Tim Lewis, just to name a few. You'll also get access to live group mentor sessions with me and join a Facebook community over 2,000 professionals all working with aggression cases. The total value of this bundle is over $3,000, but you get everything the full master course, 30 plus webinars, live mentorship and community access for just $595. Only 50 bundles are available and this offer expires on October 31st 2025,. Only 50 bundles are available and this offer expires on October 31st 2025, or when they sell out. Whichever comes first, just head to the show notes and click on the link for the Aggression in Dogs Master Course and Webinar Bundle to grab your spot.
Speaker 1:All right, we're back with Jessica Wecraft. We're going to be talking about triggers next, or what we sometimes refer to as antecedents, as well as the stacking of those things when stressors happen. So give us the rundown on that. How do you define or actually do you use the term trigger stacking, or do you call it something else, and what term do you use and how does it apply to the work you do?
Speaker 2:I like to use the word trigger stacking. I think that it's pretty well recognized in the industry and I've even had clients who really understand the concepts of trigger stacking, so I like to use that and that is something where, again, there's something that the dog is not comfortable with, something that they find aversive, and we can also maybe consider that a trigger. There's a reason why that triggers the dog's behavior or changes the dog's behavior, and so the triggers can be so many things. But kind of similar to what we were talking about was sometimes there's seeing a dog with pointy ears staring at them that that's going to trigger a response in a dog. But then when we think about the concept of trigger stacking, then that's where the dog is experiencing multiple triggers in a short amount of time. The short amount of time again depends on many factors, but I guess I'll circle back to what we were talking about earlier when I was referencing thresholds and how if the dog had a stressful couple of days, then naturally their thresholds are going to be lower. So we might also consider that, hey, this dog has experienced a lot of triggers in a short amount of time and so then therefore their behavior is going to be different, but we might also see something that is more maybe we could call it like an acute trigger stacking, where you step out the door and then another dog just appears suddenly.
Speaker 2:So you begin your walk with your dog, already perhaps having a reaction, and then you continue the walk because, let's say, this is a client.
Speaker 2:Hey, I live in an apartment complex. I have to get my dog out for a potty break. I can't just turn around and go back in my house, I need to get my dog out. So we have a dog who already reacted and then it, you know, it's going down the pathway and then it happens to hear a neighbor dog that's really reacting to it from that dog's apartment, like maybe it's patio or the window and it's really, you know, reacting there. And then the dog gets triggered again, and then they're continuing and they finally make it to their big grassy space where the dog is supposed to relieve itself. And then you have a dog who the dog normally wouldn't react to. Let's say, for this particular dog it's a little dog and this dog usually only reacts to large dogs, but there's this little dog that's here and now the dog reacts to it and it's because it experienced those two other triggers shortly beforehand, which then is naturally going to lower that dog's tolerance and thresholds.
Speaker 1:Let's talk more about that. So, helping clients understand resiliency because that's a big factor here. When we're talking about multiple stressors in the environment or triggers that can happen over the course of a day, over time do you do work with your clients to help the dogs that have poor stress resiliency and for the sake of this episode, we'll kind of define resiliency as the ability to cope with stress and come back to a state of homeostasis. You know, after experiencing that stressor, some dogs and people do really well with it and some have a tough time. So in those dogs that really have a difficult time, they're showing high signs of anxiety or stress, displacement behaviors, things that signal the dog is experiencing a state of stress or extreme stress in some examples, for sometimes a day or two after. What do you do to help those dogs? Do you look at meds? Do you look at particular exercises?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it could be either one of those things, and I think it also depends on the resources available to that individual client, because we can come in as trainers and say, well, you know, I know you live in an apartment, but we're just going to need you to put your dog in a car four times a day and drive it somewhere real quiet so it could go to the bathroom. That's a big ask for people. It's a big ask, a big routine change as well. So it depends on the resources available to that client and I always try to find options that work for them. So we go over lots of options and then see, okay, well, what is most doable for you? So I want to start with that, because if the human end is not able to do the things, then we're just going to be going in circles. So a lot of times, breaks from stress do make a very, very big difference, which is why a lot of trainers will suggest, hey, maybe just don't put your dog in that environment. But that's easier said than done, and so rest from breaks is really, really helpful, and I often like to recommend more things that the dog can do downtime or activities that they could do inside of the home, too, is fun, so sometimes we'll play. We might just do training games in the home. That might be, and even I'm calling it a game. We might practice like loose leash walking and just looping all around the house. So you're doing 20 minutes of practicing leash stuff with your dog, but you just normally go outside. It could be something more fun like indoor doggy agility, where we're working on like jumping up on, you know, the ottoman and crawling under the table or doing something kind of more fun. If they needed to again give their dogs some sort of stimulation that didn't involve them needing to, you know, be outside and be in a really stressful situation, it might be just increasing.
Speaker 2:Puzzle toys. Puzzle toys are chews. I think chews are also really, really, really important for dogs in terms of ways for them to relieve stress, so this might be a chew that they can actually ingest. It could also be a Kong, a stuffed Kong that they're using. But I like to really balance out anything that seems more stressful, that involves more arousal, to things that are much calmer and I guess, on that other note, now that I am talking about this, nose work games are also really fun for dogs because it's a way for them to use their bodies and their mind, but it doesn't necessarily involve a lot of stress or arousal. So those are some of the activities that I will encourage my clients to do if the dog needs to have more of a break.
Speaker 1:And I love that you mentioned the different forms of enrichment or even chewing. I was just out in the UK and Sarah Fisher had a really great presentation on her ACE, free work and getting the dogs engaged in that kind of enrichment activity but using different muscles even just how they chew something, whether it's with the rear molars or the front teeth is really fascinating. She does a great job explaining why that can make a difference for some dogs. You know whether it's using the jaw muscles or the nose or the eyes or how they're moving their body. It's to help with this, all this stuff with dogs that are having a tough time coping out there, so excellent.
Speaker 1:So I love that we're kind of diving into the both the interior and exterior factors of the dog in this situation. So I love that we're kind of diving into both the interior and exterior factors of the dog in this situation. So in that regard, let's shift to criteria and I have to pronounce that because my Rhode Island accent comes out sometimes I have a tough time saying that Criteria because I feel like idea and car and Boston, like my accent Anyways. So criteria, understanding that. So well, let's explain, just in case somebody is not familiar with that term, in the training concept. What does that mean? Criteria in training.
Speaker 2:Can I circle back just because I thought about something really important about helping dogs that when you mentioned, okay, the dog is leaving the house and it's feeling really stressed, and how do we help them when they have been trigger stacked. I think that that's important because I was giving a lot of suggestions. Well, here's what you do when the dog is already inside of the home or you're trying to help the dog come down from experience that type of stress, and this also does play into criteria as well. So I think we could really easily segment into that when the dog is feeling more stressed, it's over thresholds or trigger stacked, whatever we want to say, even if the dog isn't having a full-blown reaction, but we're seeing those signs that this is a dog that's experiencing more stress when they're out and about.
Speaker 2:I will always have some core behaviors that we have taught the dog, and the dog knows it pretty darn well, and sometimes I refer to these as just foundation behaviors. Some people call them like fundamentals, really, whatever you want to think of, but these are skills that my clients of reactive dogs are practicing and know pretty darn well before we start to expose them too much to the things that they are really worried about and some of these skills are also really easy skills for them to do, or easy or fun. I often will ask my clients like what's your dog's easiest behavior or the thing that they know the best? They're really eager to do it us they're really eager to do it. Those are things that, when the dog is starting to feel more stressed, we go back to just asking for really easy behaviors with the dog. Or sometimes I describe it as trying to recenter your dog. And you can recenter the dog by having familiar behaviors and especially if you chain those behaviors together so that way it becomes something that's a very familiar pattern to the dog. So, for example, we might do some treat chases where we do ping pong back and forth and then the dog comes in the center and we ask for a really quick sit or maybe a hand target Again a very brief behavior that's very easy for the dog to do and then we go back to some treat chases and then we might go back to again some sort of easy behavior for the dog to do, and then we might go back to again some sort of easy behavior for the dog to do and then we might end that with, like perhaps, a treat scatter and then we move on. And that can be really helpful for those dogs because we are running through a routine that has been really well rehearsed and it's very familiar to them.
Speaker 2:And I think that familiarity is the part that's really critical for dogs when you're throwing them in environments that are less familiar or that are really critical for dogs. When you're throwing them in environments that are less familiar or that are really overwhelming for them, we need to give them something that is familiar, because that is what, from my experience, it brings them back down. It kind of gets them re-centered. They're eating, they're paying attention, they're engaging with their handler, and that often then reduces stress too, because we're giving them something that they know really, really well in that time. And so that's one of the strategies that I'll use with my clients. When they start to see that their dog got trigger-stacked on a walk but they can't really go home yet because maybe they're far away from home, so it's getting home is not really feasible right away, then what do you do then? So I often have built in little routines like that for my clients.
Speaker 1:Almost like a pattern game, but with a well kind of is a pattern game if you're repeating it, of course, but it's really designed to put in something the dog knows is a really positive experience in those sessions. Right, love it. So criteria in that case, with that in mind, let's talk about maybe you can think of a case example where you really had to think through the nuances of setting criteria and maybe give us that as an example if you could think of something off the top of your head.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah. And when you were asking earlier okay, well, what is criteria? Or how do we define it, I think I define it as has the requirement for reinforcement been met, and that might sound a little trainer lingo, so you might also, if it's a client, they might be thinking should I give my dog a treat right now? Did the dog respond the way I was hoping for it to respond? And should I feed this right now? And so that's part of it, right? Okay, well, what behavior are we deciding that we are going to reinforce? And if we're using food, which behavior are we going to feed? So criteria is something that needs to be kept very fluid, and so I guess some good examples from some cases. Is that really common? Is that when I go in and I work with a client, I will often ask them so what do you do right now when your dog notices another dog? What behavior are you asking for and how do you reinforce it? And these are things that I often like to see in action, because what I'm looking for is A how well does the dog know the behavior? Because that's important. And if the dog does indeed know the behavior pretty darn well and I'm noticing that it's then unable to respond to the behavior that it normally can respond to, meaning it's not quite as fluent. The response is not quite as fluent, then I know that we might be asking too much of the dog. So, for example, I often like to test this out inside of the dog's home first, when there isn't any sort of trigger around, and I test out the dog's responsiveness. So, for example, let's just say we have a client and they say well, when my dog sees another dog, I have taught it to orient in my direction and check in with me. And so I said, okay, great, would love to see what this looks like inside of your home first and I'm looking for how quickly can the dog respond to this? How quickly can they check in? Are they readily eating? If they're using a marker word, you know, what does that timing look like, and so forth.
Speaker 2:But then it's really common that when we get out and about and we are expecting the dog to do the same thing again because we have set that criteria of well, when you see this distraction, the behavior that I'm going to feed, it's only going to be if you look at the dog and then look all the way back at me. But for many dogs that criteria is too high, meaning you're asking too much for your dog in that moment. And that's where a lot of clients get stuck, because they think, well, now the dog's just not responding. And they think, well, now it just doesn't want, it's not food motivated, because now it's not willing to do this for the treat. So that's what the issue is here, and by just changing what behavior they decide to reinforce, that just makes all the difference in the world, and that is essentially changing your criteria but also lowering it.
Speaker 2:So, hey, let's make this easier for your dog, and instead of expecting your dog to notice a dog and look all the way back at you, why don't we just start with the dog, notice the dog first, that's all we're going to change. And then, nine times out of 10, that dog is eating, it's responding, it's staying under threshold, all the things that we want and so that's where you get this interplay between criteria, you know, thresholds and so forth is that we need to always be very fluid with all those things, because when you are working with a reactive dog, the environment is constantly changing. It is not a sterile environment, and so you always need to be quick on your feet and to have a lot of different ways in which you can adjust what you are doing.
Speaker 1:I love that you're making that distinction too. So do you do anything to help clients or do you break it up into? This is what we do if your dog is over threshold, or this is how we can use food as a distractor and work on those things individually so it doesn't get muddied Cause if we're starting to be like this is how you reinforce this desirable behavior, but this is what you do if your dog is distracted. This is you know. So that can get confusing, especially if many of those things require food or we're asking to use food. So do you spend a lot of time on each component food or we're asking to use food.
Speaker 2:So do you spend a lot of time on each component? I do, yeah, I. I like to prepare my clients, truly, and and I want to prepare the dog too. So we do review a lot of these things ahead of time, and I do. I guess we can call it. We'll call it stages, so I will explain to my clients if you are in this situation with your dog, history tells us that that's going to be too difficult for them. And again, these are because we've evaluated the dog, we've understood what their you know thresholds, triggers are, all these sorts of things. So I will give them really specific feedback.
Speaker 2:If you're in this situation with your dog, you are going to ask for this behavior or you are going to use food in this way, and it might not be something that we would consider more operant, meaning like, okay, we want the dog to notice the dog, and then we're going to mark and then feed. We might just jump into management mode, which is you're not going to ask the dog for anything, you're just going to take food and you are either going to just throw it on the ground or you're just going to take food and you are either going to just throw it on the ground, or you're just going to lure the dog, you know, in some other direction as you're feeding it, and that is a one way that you can. You know, obviously, lower criteria, but it's also a way where we are making this really easy for the dog to do something else besides reacting, and you can use food as a management tool in those scenarios reacting and you can use food as a management tool in those scenarios.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's when we talk about as trainers. We talk about things when we're using food, like capturing, shaping, luring or just straight counter conditioning we might. It's making me realize just how much we have to help clients understand the differences if we're using food in that kind of process. So, like, a distraction technique could become problematic if it's used incorrectly, but the client might not understand. Wait a minute, I'm using food here to distract or is it to reinforce? Or am I just capturing behavior? Like they're not going to know the nuances? So, yeah, do you have any tips for that? Like, do you go into the terminology? Or just like, this is why we wouldn't use food here. Do you explain, like, why, like luring a dog towards something scary would be you know not the right use of food? But then they're like, wait, I'm just distracting and then, oh wait, I'm reinforcing this behavior. Do you see a lot of confusion there when we're starting to use food in so many different ways?
Speaker 2:I do, I do, and that's why it's really important to help them understand the differences between that and I. It's a really really common thing that you hear with people with reactive dogs is I don't want to just be distracting my dog with the food. It's like such the common thing that I hear in regards to that. Well, I'm just distracting him with the treats, and then when I look at the process that's occurring, I'm like I help them understand. Are you asking your dog for a behavior and then you were therefore reinforcing that behavior with food? That's not distracting the dog, whereas if the dog barely even had a chance to perceive that another dog happens to appear in the environment and you're already feeding them, then that is distracting the dog and that can very easily backfire. Because if we're trying to think of doing more effective counter conditioning, but they are presenting the food first and just feeding the dog and the dog has not had a chance to even be aware that there's another dog in the environment, the food can then predict well, shoot, I'm eating this, but oh my gosh, now a dog appeared. And I think that really undoes the power of food rewards if they are presented in that way. But if they're presented more in a way of, for example, some treat chases or some just treat scatters and stuff. I tend to find that that works really well.
Speaker 2:If dogs are used to eating treats in a variety of ways is another way that I'll describe this to my clients are, like you know, there's a variety of way that your dogs can be eating treats and here's all the different ways and here's why we might choose one or an over another. So I might just be like now rambling on and not quite coming back to your original question. It was like okay, using food as management, we're helping them understand, like the differences between the treats. I think another big one for me is that the vast majority of my clients were using a marker word, marker words or a clicker, some sort of marker signal. I don't use that when I'm using food as management because there's nothing specific I'm trying to mark. So that's a really big distinction that hey, you're just going to throw the food on the ground, you're not marking anything, whereas when we are looking for more specific behaviors, then we are indeed marking and feeding those things. So that's, I think, one of the biggest distinctions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good way. I'm sure that's very helpful. And speaking of markers and food, and as we're going through all the different ways of using food, cueing and capturing and shaping all this other stuff, do you find that only certain clients you're going to use something like a location specific marker with something more advanced like that?
Speaker 2:Well, I just don't tell them that it's a location specific marker.
Speaker 2:Again it's here's all the ways that your dog can eat food and why some ways are better than others or more effective. So I will describe things. So, for example, treat chases I really like because I find that a lot of dogs, when they're stressed, getting them in motion is the best thing that you can do for them. I'm not always a big fan of having dogs be stationary, and so I do find that for again, some of these cases that I work with, they will tell me well, I tried, using the food, you know, I tried to do, or even, for example, I do the treat scatter, you know, after they've noticed another dog, and then I come in and I watch that dog's body language and I'm like when your dog is starting to feel stressed, they don't pause and go sniff the ground on their own. Your dog picks up the pace and wants to be in motion. So if I see a dog, in terms of the way that they naturally respond to stress, be one of it probably wants to be more in motion, I'm not gonna choose to do a treat scatter at that moment, because I feel like that particular dog might even find that to be more aversive, more aversive way of getting food than if you were to do some treat chases so they can be in motion, get further away from the thing that's causing them stress, and then maybe do a treat scatter. So it's the way that you feed can be very impactful to the dog. So treat chases can be very fun.
Speaker 2:I do cue treat chases because I want the dog to know when it's going to happen, and I'm very clear that treat chases have one word and a treat scatter has a different word and when I'm going to mark, simply mark and feed eye contact, that's another word. But I just call them all cues. So, like that way, the client doesn't actually know that it's a location specific marker. I don't think that they need to know all that, I think it just goes over their head. But they do really understand the concept of oh, now I want let my dog know that we're gonna do treat chases now and then you can use the treat chases, for example, in more of that operant sense.
Speaker 2:So let's say we are walking and we're on one side of the street, there's another dog that's gonna pass us on the other side of the street and if you change how you deliver the food reward, I do often find that that can help keep dogs under threshold. So that's often where I might use treat chases. If I know that that proximity for this individual dog is probably cutting it real close, like their threshold is really thin in that moment. I do find that treat chases to get past that other dog rather than feeding to the mouth or just feeding like dropping it on the ground right below their nose. I do find that that's more effective, that I can keep dogs who might be going over threshold. I can prevent that by just simply how I'm reinforcing the behavior.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and as you're talking through all of this, I can imagine there's a lot of coaching, of course, because you're looking for all these details where the food is, how the food's being delivered, the environment.
Speaker 1:So I can't think of any other types of cases in the sort of aggression case umbrella dog displaying undesirable behaviors towards things in the environment than leash reactivity. Because when you think about, like, if I'm working with a dog that's guarding their food ball, there's not a whole lot of mechanical skills as compared to leash reactivity, right? So do you find coaching through video format really helpful? So the client sends you video because I know you do some remote consults too. So do you find that that's the way to go now and do you have any new pro tips or anything that you've seen with technology in that regard?
Speaker 2:Oh, good question, Well one. I just want to say thank you for recognizing that leash reactivity is, in my opinion, the most complex behavior issue to treat, because you are working with the dog in public and there are so many conditions that you are trying to work with and around and it's very difficult and that's why people struggle with it, because there's so many things that go into it, and so I do a significant amount of coaching with my clients. If possible, I always love to do it in person because that is where I get the most information. But I will say, with my clients, some of the things that's really helpful for me to see if I'm working with them remotely are the environment, in addition to what they are doing with their dog, because, again, the environment is such a what they are doing with their dog, because, again, the environment is such a big factor in these cases, and so I'm looking for anything that could be occurring in the environment, but I think more specifically what the environment actually looks like. So there's a big difference between a suburban street where you have like pretty wide streets and designated sidewalks, and a house that's more in like a rural community where there's no sidewalks and the streets are often more narrow. That's a big difference in environment that most people don't think of of. Hey, I'm across the street from this dog, and what most people think of across the street might mean, like you know, I'm not the best at measurements, but maybe we'll say 60 feet, but when you're in a rural environment maybe that's only 25 feet. That's a big difference. That's half the distance. That's a big difference when it comes to how close your dog might be to something. So the environment is huge and I'm always very interested to know with the client when I'm working with them remotely, like what that environment actually looks like and so forth.
Speaker 2:And so I, when I'm working with them remotely, I will do several different things. So, yes, I do like for them to send me, you know, video clips of these types of things. But I have found that some of the most valuable coaching for my remote clients is teaching them the concept of working with their dog around a distraction that's not another dog at first and how they should be adjusting their criteria. Because, again, that's that concept for so many of our clients that they get really stuck with, and a lot of times I'll just practice with the front door being open. Hey, we're going to practice you know XYZ behavior and we're going to use your front door. Hey, we're going to practice you know XYZ behavior and we're going to use your front door.
Speaker 2:And I really help walk them through the different steps of this, in the sense of if you were just to have your dog unleashed and you just fling the front door wide open and your dog is standing right there and you ask for a behavior, your dog's response is probably going to be pretty slow, which is not what we're looking for. You know, when we are asking for a behavior and we want the dog's response to be pretty quick, especially if we have the goal of eventually leaving the house. And so I show clients how do you work around this? What if you just cracked the door and then you were standing 15 feet away from that door with your dog? What's the difference in your dog's response? And can we be reinforcing these behaviors, because I'm looking for quick responses? And then can we go a little bit closer to the door? And then, okay, what if we open the door a little bit more?
Speaker 2:And so, again, it's always this interplay of like increasing and decreasing criteria, so that way they're seeing oh, I get it. This is what my dog looks like when you know they're getting a little bit more stuck. This is what my dog looks like when you know they're getting a little bit more stuck. This is what my dog looks like when they are responding very quickly, and those really quick responses are really important when it comes to getting your dog out and about. If they are not responding quickly to you, then there's not really a whole lot of point in trying to train out there, because you're just either A just going to get a lot of latent responses or, b the behaviors aren't really useful, because you can't call your dog away from another dog and then they end up reacting anyways. So it's really important that they just understand how to work around a distraction.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's really what I shifted to sort of as I was going through my career working with these kind of cases is, you know, people want that sort of plan laid out for them or that prescription. You know, start at 20 yards away and for 20 minutes and feed X amount of times with this particular treat, which is super helpful and something we have to help a lot of our. It's like somebody, a trainer at the gym. You know you're going to do this, many pushups, this, whatever exercise for somebody that has never done it. But at the same time we want them to be their own coaches, because they really are coaching and helping their dog and they have to understand how to navigate and shift the criteria, like you mentioned, you know, based on that environment.
Speaker 1:I can't again think of any other type of case where there's that much needing to understand the nuances, how to shift things like the distance, the duration, watching for the intensity, the environmental factors, the internal factors. Out of all the types of cases, there's not many that compare to leash reactivity. So in that regard, to kind of wrap things up here, I think a lot of what we've been speaking about seems so precision and be like, oh my gosh, somebody listening to the show is like, oh, I've got to watch out for this now and this and I've got to really pay attention to this body language and it can feel overwhelming. But at the same time, again, out of all the types of cases and you and I have even talked about this is that when we talk about any problem behaviors, we don't want to see rehearsal of it. So if it's like a dog guarding their food bowl, the last thing we want is the client to keep practicing sticking their hand in the food bowl, doing things we don't recommend. That's going to elicit that response.
Speaker 1:But leash reactivity is different, because most of the time you're still going to see it once in a while. Our goal is to reduce the frequency, the intensity, help the dog feel better, but it's something that's almost impossible to avoid, especially in some environments. So talk us through that, as well as the nuances of like, maybe, breed, and how some breeds are going to be. It's normal for them to do some of the things they're doing, and what are setting expectations, I guess, is kind of where I'm going with this. What would you say?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, when a dog is reacting on leash, then we know that that is a behavior that's in their behavior repertoire and we know that with the right conditions, that dog is going to go back to that behavior. So it is impossible to just eliminate it from the dog's behavioral repertoire. So that is something that you know. I make sure that my clients understand your dog is going to react at some point again, it's just going to happen. And that, I think, is helps them feel better, because I think they know that their dog isn't supposed to react. And then when their dog does react, they feel guilty or they're, you know, feel ashamed because they feel like it's something that they did. And you know there's so many emotions that our clients of reactive dogs are having to experience, and then it's on full display in public. So of course you're going to feel, you know, more, more, like all the eyes are on you. So I do make sure that they understand this is something that, as you said, we can decrease the intensity, we can decrease the frequency of these behaviors from occurring, but it's still going to be there. And then for some dogs, as you mentioned, like who might you know be of a certain breed, vocalizing on leash is quite normal, because vocalizing for these dogs is quite normal. So, okay, I guess I'll tell you about one dog that I worked with. It was an Icelandic sheep dog and those dogs are extremely vocal, they vocalize for everything. And I will admit I didn't have a lot of experience with those dogs because in Southern California they just weren't very popular, so I didn't. I mean, where am I going to come across one? This dog just vocalized for every single reason that you can think of, and so he felt okay. Well, my dog is super reactive on leash and, yeah, he was doing a lot of barking on leash. But guess what, when this dog was not on a leash, it was also very vocal about everything. Hi, I'm happy to see you, I'm going to vocalize. Hi, I want to play, I'm going to vocalize. Oh, I'm excited, dog, I'm going to vocalize.
Speaker 2:So it became almost impossible for me to use not vocalizing as a metric of success, of thinking, well, he's not vocalizing, so we're under a threshold. I just kept working with the dog hey, okay, he's barking, but he's eating, let's just keep working. And I had to really change my own assumptions about what we think about certain dogs, like whether they really are under threshold or not or kind of what metrics we're using to determine that. Because there are many breeds of dogs where it's very natural for them to vocalize. I've also seen, for example, german Shepherd, german Shepherds or Malinois, who they will naturally alert to something initially by vocalizing Doesn't mean that they carry on. Some of them, of course, carry on, but it's very normal for them to let out a few barks. In that moment would I say, oh my gosh, he's over threshold. We need to, you know, increase distance by 50 feet? Probably not. I'd probably just stay right where I am and just continue working the dog right through it.
Speaker 2:And kind of same thing with coonhound that I worked with, that just again vocalized, but I didn't really gather that he was under really a significant amount of distress because he was still able to do.
Speaker 2:You know, there was so many other indicators that he felt good about what we were doing, but he was also vocalizing as we were doing some of these things. And again, that's because that's what they're bred for, a lot of these hunting dogs, you know, that's how they're alerting, that they're on the chase or the scent of something. And so I think we also need to normalize vocalizations in dogs. You can't expect to take your dog in public and then it never makes a peep. Sometimes they are just going to vocalize. That is normal. And again, I think you know that goes back to knowing your dog. You know do they vocalize for a variety of reasons, even when they're happy yeah, what you're seeing on leash could be just part of that. Or if you have a dog who is indeed pretty darn quiet until they get really worried about something and then they vocalize, okay, well, that's different. So that's why we're like, really understanding your individual dog is the most important piece here.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's a really great way to wrap up this topic because I think a lot of the pet guardians out there will feel more understood as well, as the dogs are going to feel more understood now after hearing what you just talked about. So I would also love to hear more about what you're up to. I know we have the dog guardian course. That is out because it's at the time of the recording. We're working on it, but it'll be out by the time this episode is released. So and.
Speaker 1:Jessica is doing the leash reactivity section of that course, so check it out. It'll be on the aggressivedogcom website. What else are you up to these days, jessica? What other projects or other exciting things you got going on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I have my leash reactivity for professionals mentorship, and that is a really comprehensive course that I designed for dog professionals. So dog trainers, dog behavior consultants, even, I would say well, shelter staff and even just behavior enthusiasts who really want a super deep dive into leash reactivity how to take leisure activities from beginning to end. So that is really probably like my most like flagship thing that I do in the sense of teaching that, and I have different versions of it. I have an on-demand version and then other versions where I have a small cohort of students and we go through it together and they get live mentorship sessions with me. So that is one, and I also do a fair amount of mentoring of other trainers. So I will help them mainly with their tricky cases. If they need help with a case that they're feeling really stuck on or maybe even a case that they want to prepare for, that's another thing that I do quite a bit of.
Speaker 1:Amazing. What's the best way for people to get ahold of you?
Speaker 2:You can get everything on my website, which is jessicawheatcraftcom.
Speaker 1:Fantastic, Jessica. Thank you so much for joining us again and I look forward to seeing you in the future.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:A big thank you to Jessica for sharing her deep expertise and compassion around working with reactive dogs.
Speaker 1:Her thoughtful approach to training, balancing science, empathy and practical experience, is a powerful reminder of the importance of meeting dogs and their humans where they are. If you'd like to learn more about Jessica's work or her mentorship programs, be sure to check out the links in the show notes. And if you're ready to go deeper into understanding and helping dogs with aggression, visit AggressiveDogcom. Whether you're a professional or a dedicated dog guardian, you'll find everything from the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program of its kind, to expert-led webinars, informative articles and the Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from September 26th through 28th 2025 in Charlotte, north Carolina. Happening from September 26th through 28th 2025 in Charlotte, North Carolina, with both in-person and virtual options. And don't forget to check out our Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes, which are solo shows where I walk you through real-world strategies for issues like resource guarding, fear-based aggression, territorial behavior and more. Just hit, subscribe or head to the show notes for more info. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends, I love it.