The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Laughter, Lessons, and Legends. A special episode with Patricia McConnell and Karen London
When two legends of dog behavior sit down to share their wisdom, you listen. In this special mid-season bonus episode, I'm joined by Dr. Patricia McConnell and Dr. Karen London, two pioneers whose books, research, and teaching have shaped modern dog training for decades.
What makes someone successful in the challenging field of professional dog training? As we discover through candid stories and genuine reflection, it's not about perfection but rather creativity, adaptability, and a healthy dose of humor. From Karen's emergency "tissue treat" that became an unexpected jackpot reward to Patricia's memorable response when her demo dog peed on a client's pants: "And you too can have a dog who's as well-trained as mine!"
Beyond the laughs, we explore the profound reality of working with aggression cases. Patricia shares her experience with nightmares featuring dogs' teeth that counterintuitively helped desensitize her to fear, while Karen reflects on sitting in on severe cases during her training. Their insights reveal the complex psychological aspects of this work rarely discussed in training circles, and highlight what every dog trainer needs to know.
Pre-Order Away to Me:
Amazon:
Barnes and Noble:
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/away-to-me-patricia-b-mcconnell/1147476852?ean=9781496757111
Bookshop:
https://bookshop.org/p/books/away-to-me-patricia-b-mcconnell/22714340?ean=9781496757111&next=t
About Dr. Patricia McConnell:
https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/about-patricia/
Dr. Karen London's books:
https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B0045AV5G4?ccs_id=4c59d237-8569-47af-aa48-6a2441fda383
Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com
Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
Subscribe to the bonus episodes available here:
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes
Check out all of our webinars, courses, and educational content here:
Webinars, courses, and more!
I have a special surprise. This week, in this mid-season bonus episode of the Bitey End of the Dog, I had the privilege of sitting down with two legends in our field Dr Patricia McConnell and Dr Karen London. We talked about what both new and seasoned trainers should know about the profession of dog training, and they shared invaluable insights from decades of experience of dog training. And they shared invaluable insights from decades of experience. Dr McConnell is a world-renowned applied animal behaviorist and author of the Other End of the Leash, while Dr London is a mythologist trainer and author of Treat Everyone Like a Dog. This episode is filled with wisdom, perspective and practical guidance that every trainer and every dog lover will appreciate. Hi everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. I have two very special guests for this special episode. This is an off-season episode, but when they reached out to me I couldn't hesitate to do a special episode. So welcome to the show Dr Patricia McConnell and Dr Karen London.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much for having us, and we really appreciate being put in off-season. It's a real treat.
Speaker 3:I sort of feel off-season most of my life, but we are very grateful. Thank you, michael.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and this is going to be a focus that's going to be around, hopefully something helpful for new trainers coming in and wanting to learn more about the work we do, as well as seasoned trainers and folks that have been in the industry a long time hearing about sort of the decades of experience that both of you have and how you started working together and all of the nuances that this profession brings. So first let's just dive into how you guys met, because you have. I was looking actually at the books that you've authored together and it's quite a few more than I realized, because I have one of my. Actually, one of the first books I ever got was Feisty Fido. It's on my bookshelf. That's why I was looking behind me. It's still there, shamingly right next to one of Cesar Millan's books.
Speaker 1:That's not on purpose, it's just. That was the error at the time, and so actually thanks to that book that was part of my crossover journey, which I think we've talked about in the past, but that was 2003 that one came out Feisty Fido. Is that correct? It's?
Speaker 3:been a while, yeah, long time it time it has been a while yeah.
Speaker 1:So 22 years. So tell me about how you guys met and how you started working together and authoring books, and how everything came about.
Speaker 3:Well, Karen, do you mind if I just jump in quickly?
Speaker 2:No, go ahead, and I'll just feel free to interrupt you whenever I want, because I'm like that and that's your job in the best of all possible ways.
Speaker 3:So, just quickly, karen and I met at the University of Wisconsin in Madison and she turned out to be a teaching assistant for the class I taught. I taught a class called the Biology and Philosophy of Human-Animal Relationships and I called her the radar of teaching because she was fabulous, she was phenomenal. I mean I had this huge class, 150 people and they wrote essay exams. I mean it was a really, really intensive teaching class and I would meet with Karen and I would turn to her and I would start to say, karen, it would really help. And she would say, yep, I've done that already. She was amazing. She was absolutely a phenomenal teaching assistant. And then it ended up. Karen, I'm going to leave it to you to talk about how the fact that you took a job in Wisconsin after getting married on the East.
Speaker 2:Coast. Yes, yes, it was a little crazy, but I do want to say something about teaching in your class, which was so wonderful. I really enjoyed it. It was great, except for grading all the essays, which was important but not everybody's favorite part. I one time took like 50 essays to a coffee shop and they swore they gave me decaf and gave me regular and it was. I have barely recovered and that was like in 1994 and 1996. But I remember that one time you said to me, oh, it'd be really good to have some exam questions, and I think this is when you started calling me radar, because I said, oh, I wrote four or five multiple choice questions after every lecture, for each lecture, and so I remember you being very happy. I'm a little obsessive that way. Well then I started, I think, helping out with classes, just volunteering as a training assistant, because I became very interested in the work that you were doing with the business Dog's Best Friend Training. I remember one time I actually taught a class because no trainer could substitute. Somebody was sick and someone had been in a car accident and I think Pip was about to have puppies or somebody and you couldn't leave the house. So I did that and then I moved to New Hampshire.
Speaker 2:My husband started his PhD at Dartmouth. Then Tricia wanted somebody to. She wanted to train somebody up to see her aggression cases while she took her sabbatical to write the other end of the leash. And so I was living in New Hampshire. I actually went to Portland, oregon, to get married. That's where I'm from, my family lived, and then I my husband and I honeymooned in Alaska and then I flew back home. My husband flew to Louisiana for his fieldwork and moved to Wisconsin I think three weeks after I was married. It was kind of funny.
Speaker 2:People would sometimes say did you live together before you were married? And I always said, oh, yeah, before, but not after, because we were four years long distance, which was sort of amusing. But yeah, it was just such an opportunity. I mean, this is something I would say to anyone that's interested in entering the field you have to take an opportunity when it comes, because they're not.
Speaker 2:It's not like dental school where you go and you have your four years and then your rotations or whatever. I don't know dental school exactly, but it's not a very specific path. So when Tricia said she wanted to train me to do this, I sat in on cases with her all of her cases for four months, about half of her cases for the next couple of months and then started seeing my own and I mean it was terrible to leave your honeymoon and then no offense Tricia, but then to come somewhere else, but it was worth it, yeah, so that's how I started working for Tricia and then we both have always had an interest in writing and so it became natural to do. I think we've done five books together and I hope there'll be a sixth, but we just haven't got there yet.
Speaker 3:That's amazing, yeah, and I think one of the things. But besides, I mean everybody was overwhelmed at Karen's dedication of like I want to. This is important to me. I want to do this and you know one thing I will say about this field is sometimes that really happens.
Speaker 3:You know one of the challenges of being a professional dog trainer. You know who makes a living from it, or an animal behaviorist. You know it's not like going to dental school or medical school, or you know an animal behaviorist. You know it's not like going to dental school or medical school, or you know a veterinary school. You have to create your own pathway and that's one of the challenges. And you know things like.
Speaker 3:You know the conference, michael, that you and so many other people are working on at 26 in Chicago. That's a great consortium of so many different organizations. It's. There's just still no path. You know there's no like you do this and then you do that, and then you come out with that and then you're ready, and so you have to create your own path and it's wonderful because you end up with these phenomenal, unexpected situations like me and Karen becoming colleagues and writing together and becoming best friends. But it's also challenging and people need to know that you know if you want to really make a living at this and get really, really serious although you can do it part time, very seriously, don't get me wrong but it's not always a easy path to take.
Speaker 1:You have to be very intentional both of you are part of my path. But imagine if I had taken other paths and because I wasn't exposed to your books and your work and positive, reinforcement-based methods it's a question I have a lot Imagine if I'd gone down a different path or learned from other people. You're right, there's no one set way of doing it, so people have journeys and sometimes that path or that ship's going to steer itself in one direction and it can go all kinds of ways in this industry.
Speaker 3:Michael, how did you end up being who you are? How did you end up on this path? I mean, you're so important in our field right now. You've done so well. I'm just so curious about your story. I'm taking over the podcast here.
Speaker 1:I feel like I need to get that printed on a T-shirt, because that's such an honor to hear that from you. It really is, I think, just having good mentors. Then you have the other side, people that are open and willing to share information, even when they see you doing things wrong or that they might not agree with. They recognize that hey, here's this young kid, he wants to learn about training and might be doing some of the things that I don't agree with, so let's kind of try to gently steer him in the right direction. So I've had lots of great people, I guess. To answer your question, I give credit to all the people that helped me in my journey, all along the way and still to this day. You know, even the people I collaborate with. They're all kind of wanting the same thing. We all want the best for dogs and their people.
Speaker 3:So yeah, and our journey is never over, right, you know.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so we have to keep at it, yeah, you.
Speaker 1:You know, speaking of challenges, you're mentioning challenges and one of the things that can happen with relationships in general, right, whether professional relationships or our own relationships in our personal lives. But what's your secret? So you two have been working together, our colleagues, for three decades now, close to that, or a little over that, and so and here you are, both sitting on a podcast with me. So what's been your secret? What's kept you guys working so closely together?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm going to rudely jump in because Karen is probably the funniest person I've ever met and I'm really, I'm absolutely serious about that. She's so quick-witted. She's the person who always says the thing you wish you'd said but think of in the shower later Maybe you know or never would have thought of. But I will admit, I love funny. I do. I just I love funny. It's just a wonderful way to get through the world and to learn things. So when she's just delightfully, joyfully funny, she's smart as a whip and she's a really good, nice person and we just we just clicked so to me so easily, because who would not want to work with somebody who's smart and funny and a really good person? I mean, what's wrong with that equation, right?
Speaker 2:And this is why I have Tricia do all my PR.
Speaker 1:She's very good at it. I will say that.
Speaker 3:I should say, we also don't. You know, we also live far apart, we do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know we also live far apart. We do, yeah, so you know, but we I mean we worked together in the office for for several years, you know, and got along really well, I, you know. Sometimes, you know, it's sort of like. I mean, it's not unlike other social species in which some dogs get along great and other dogs don't. And you, you know, you can work with things. You can, you can decrease aggression, you know. I mean, I've I've had people in my office who were just toxic. We've all worked with people who were toxic. I think one of the things I would like people getting into the business to know is how important it is I'm not saying I'm an expert at it, but knowing who is toxic, who is really helping you, who gives you joy, who teaches you to learn more, who pushes you to learn more, who is your back and who feels like, oh, this is not quite right. And it takes a while to learn that. Don't you think I do, karen? I didn't want to take over here. You go, girl.
Speaker 2:Oh no, it's fine. Well, and thank you for all the kind words. I really appreciate it so much. And I have this little problem now that you've said so many things that I want to respond to and in my mind there never is a non sequitur because everything's related and I've got like five things I want to say. But one of them I want to say is that working with Trisha has been so great because she trained me.
Speaker 2:I was working on my PhD, studying know canine aggression cases and doing dog training, so it was quite a switch. And there's the generosity with which she trained me and that was in 1999 when I started with her and just continues to be a source, like as I've written and as I've, you know, done some little TV things and some podcasts and just everything's always such a like the best cheerleader ever, which sounds belittling. I don't mean it that way. I mean she just always is on my side and I think it's rare to find someone that is so generous with what they want to teach you without ever resenting or feeling funny about anything that you might do. That's successful, no matter how much. Obviously, trish is so much better known in the field and a larger figure so, but even so, people in high status. I don't mean status in the field and a larger figure, but even so, people in high status, I don't mean status in the dog way, god forbid, but just very well known in the field. Even people that come after them can be like they want to help you up to an extent, but not too much, and Trisha's not like that, it's just completely generous. So I appreciate that. And then I mean we do seem to find I mean it's something about this work is that you have to have a little bit of, I think, of a sense of dark humor sometimes, because sometimes it's very emotional or very difficult.
Speaker 2:And like I remember one of the early cases I went on with Tricia and I remember that we were, we got there on time but we would get chatting in the car on the way to house calls and then miss our exit. On the regular it was, it did not happen just once and we went to this house and it was a very difficult it wasn't actually, but it was a huge marking situation, like four or five cats, you know, vertical, spraying all kinds of things, and we were literally like on our hands and knees like sniffing it out. You know, and I remember Trish had said to me like you too can get a PhD and sniff around on the floor for the smell of urine. And I don't have a super strong nose, trish, I think your sense of smell is much better. So I was at one over and she's like God, like you think, like you know, like I almost killed her and I'm just you know, like I think I sent this in a little bit of cat pee here, so just like kind of laughing about it.
Speaker 2:And one time Trisha introduced me at a conference about play. She spoke about play and then I did a whole bunch of people did it at a symposium and she introduced me with a picture of me doing a play about to a dog and it was like a thousand people in this room and this giant picture of me with my butt up in the air. And I've kind of since collected all the times as a behaviorist that you have your butt up in the air, like when you're playing, when you're sniffing cat pee, when you're reaching for dog toys. It's just kind of a thing. So we'd like, in the midst of all these sort of serious cases, you kind of laugh about just silly things. I did have to live separate from my husband for four years, but I still think most people would envy it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think humor and finding humor sometimes in the work we do is so, so important to balance things out really. So tell us something that you've both encountered in that regard Do you have any funny stories that have been memorable to you? But also balance out all the hard work we do, Because we can talk about the difficult stuff in a moment, but can you think of anything that pops out at you?
Speaker 2:Well, I can think of one.
Speaker 3:That's so us. That's so us. You go, karen, I know, get out of my mind, well, I was thinking of one.
Speaker 2:This was something that happened to me and it's only funny because there was no serious damage. But I was fostering a puppy. It was an English Springer Spaniel and her name was who, and she belonged to one of the trainers at Dogs Best Friend. His name was Michelle and she was planning to keep this puppy. She bred hunting Spaniels, but spaniels. But she wanted it to go out for basically a homestay so that it had new experiences rather than just growing up at her kennel.
Speaker 2:And the dog was not an easy house training case. It would pee and poop in the crate but wouldn't pee on a leash. So, and of course it was February in Wisconsin it was 20 below. I'm outside at night for that last. Everyone can relate to this when you're out with a puppy and you're like, for the love of God, will you just pee so we can please go inside.
Speaker 2:And I was dressed, wearing everything I knew, everything I own.
Speaker 2:So you know, basically like a little bowling ball and right as who squatted to pee and it was a big success because it had taken kind of weeks to get there right as she did that, I slipped on the ice and gave her, like by accident, the leash correction from hell and what I remember about it was so distinctly well, I wasn't that worried about getting hurt because I was wearing so much clothing, but I remember literally seeing my feet silhouetted against the sky and thinking, oh my God, when I hit, this is really going to hurt, slam.
Speaker 2:And it was awful, because that really was a terrible. I mean, if I'd wanted I don't use punishment, but if I'd wanted to punish this puppy for squatting and peeing my timing was, you know, french kiss, you know perfect, and I just think it's so ridiculous. Like I'm a professional trainer and this is the kind of crap that sometimes goes on. I thought that was sort of you know it's not one of my shining moments and the puppy was not physically injured and you know there was some training setbacks but we got there. But I just think, like if people could see me at home actually trying to train a dog I'm really good most of the time, but not today.
Speaker 1:And you fell and you were okay, because you're dressed like the Michelin man.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, yeah, only bigger and more powerful. Yeah, no, pretty much like that. And I remember I came inside and I said to my husband I was like whose idea was it to get this puppy, which it obviously had been mine Just because house training a puppy in Wisconsin, who's really a difficult case in such cold weather. It was not a good time but all was well. The puppy did eventually get her house training and the guilt that was probably in 19, or maybe the year 2000. I think I'm almost done with the guilt over what I did to her. I felt terrible. I slipped on the ice in case I didn't say that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you did you did.
Speaker 3:I love that story, karen, but I have two, and one is actually your story, except it's one of my absolute favorites.
Speaker 2:Oh, is this a tissue? Yes, okay, yes, I could tell that one. Yes.
Speaker 3:Yes, it does.
Speaker 2:I know you love this one. Can I tell that?
Speaker 3:one. May I? Oh sure, Do I have permission? Yes, so I use this all the time because any trainer can use this, because it's so perfect. It was a really simple setup. So perfect, it was a really simple setup.
Speaker 3:So Karen is outside with a dog named Bugsy, who was not always the easiest dog to deal with. They're outside in the country, in Wisconsin, there's no fences. Bugsy starts running away. Karen has been working on recalls, but Bugsy is not the easiest dog to recall. So Bugsy is running away. Karen is like, oh wow, so she does a recall and maybe I get this wrong. But to her happy surprise, Bugsy comes running back and then she's like oh no, here I am standing in a field in the middle of Wisconsin, I have no treats in my pocket Running away from him he's not a German Shepherd, right? He's not going to be quite as reinforcing. What am I going to do to reinforce him? So she goes into her pocket and she finds a used Kleenex that she has used because this is Wisconsin and your nose runs A used Kleenex. And she gives him the used Kleenex and he was just thrilled with it. And I have used that story over and over again because it's just so important to be creative, so you know what is reinforcement.
Speaker 2:Well, the reason that I didn't have treats in my pocket I just want to say is that I went outside with Bugsy. I was going to work on recalls with him, calling him off deer, and I'd been doing it where I called him before he went, but I was ready to do it when he'd already started running. But I went outside and I was like, holy mother of God, it's freezing. So I had pockets laden with treats, a stuffed Kong, all kinds of stuff, and I threw that jacket on the bed and grabbed a warmer one and then went out and the Kleenex it was used. Well, there were actually two of them, but when I reached in my pocket I found a Kleenex. So it was freshly used because I blew my nose, gave it to him, blew my nose and gave him the second one and it was amazing because his recall got so much better after that. And I think it's because, you know, normally I didn't let him have tissues. So I mean, thankfully my nose was running because it was Wisconsin. But yeah, it's just crazy to me how that obviously wasn't what I had planned, but it actually turned out better than if I'd done the toys and treats that I had planned because it was so special, and I never, never, reinforced him with tissues again. It was a jackpot of quality, not of quantity, and I think it really made a difference for him and I'll never forget the look on his face.
Speaker 2:And you know the kind of dogs like I know Trisha talked about her dog, fudge, growing up and wondering what he was thinking. My husband and I used to talk about Bugsy and I say I wonder what he's thinking. My husband was like I know what he's thinking. He's thinking duh, because he was not a super smart dog. I mean everyone's like, oh my God, my dog's so smart, like he really wasn't. But the look on his face, like the sheer joy, like when I and you know I haven't had this dog in a long time, I mean I think it was 2004-ish when he died. I still picture that look of joy on his face when he got to eat these tissues. Of course I'm there like dry heaving and gagging because it was pretty disgusting.
Speaker 1:Well listen, karen, if the training and writing thing doesn't work out for you, you could always open your own line of Karen's nose-tripping treats or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, I know, I know, right, I know, I know. Now I live in Arizona, so not as much nose-blowing.
Speaker 3:You know, the reason I tell that story so much is that I think it's so important we can get so so stuck in a routine. You know we give them dried chicken. We give them. You know we play tug with them. I was just reading about happiness in humans and about how one of the things that helps people be happy is to do something new and different. And yesterday I got to do something new and different. I went fishing for trout at Devil's Lake in Wisconsin. You know, I don't have a boat. I never get to do that and it was so fun to do something different.
Speaker 3:So, thinking about with our dogs, you know, I think all of us as trainers and behaviorists and owners, need to think about okay, what can I do that my dog would really love? That is really really different. So that's one of the reasons I love that story, besides the fact that it's funny but, if I can, I had another funny story. That I also think leads to something we should all talk about, which is humility, yes, which is you don't have to look forward to dog training. I mean anybody who's ever taught a class or worked individually with a dog. There are times we all know if you're just in a class, and Karen and I have done a lot of that. Michael, I don't know how much you've done that, but it's a great way to make a fool of yourself and to be really humble Because, especially the first night of class, all the dogs and all the people are distracted and can barely focus.
Speaker 3:I remember thinking every single first class I thought this is never going to work. And somewhere around class two or three I literally was like oh my God, this works. I'm shocked, it's just amazing. So my story of humility is I actually wasn't teaching and having a dog not doing what I wanted it to do, which is going to happen to everybody but I was outside in the parking lot greeting people for a new puppy class.
Speaker 3:I had a Border Collie who was wonderful with puppies, absolutely great with puppies, super socialized, really just excellent with puppies. He had boundaries but he'd enforce them very appropriately. So we're outside in the parking lot, somebody comes up with a puppy I have my border I think it was Cole Ham, luke beside me and this woman comes up and says oh, I'm so excited about puppy class and we were chatting and we both looked down at the same time and Luke had his, lifted his leg and was peeing on her pants on her leg, on her leg, and I just looked at her and I said and you too can have a dog who's as well-trained as mine.
Speaker 2:if you come to my class, I mean, what else are you going to say? What else are you going to?
Speaker 3:say so, yeah. So I mean, I'd love to talk about the fact that you need to be ready as a trainer for things not to go well, you know, to get stuck in a class or to be with a client where you have this expectation and it's not working, and there's a moment of like, what the? You know, michael, that must happen to you too.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I think back to, actually, when I did teach group classes. I was teaching group classes at one of the facilities. I was learning to be a dog trainer, so I was very new and green.
Speaker 3:It's a great entry, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Definitely definitely Because you will stay humble and you learn humility. Because it was kind of at a shelter. It was like a double as a shelter where trainers could go learn. And we had our one demo dog right, this Malinois, this old Malinois, mickey, and just a probably 10-year-old, rock solid, just well-trained dog, but not for me, for some reason. He's like I'm not going to listen to you. I'll listen to everybody else, because everybody took turns, like sort of using him as the demo dog and you teach like a class of like six or eight other handlers, people coming in with their dogs, and I was trying to teach just a basic stay and he made me look like such a fool because he went and stayed. He just kept getting up, going off and doing all his own thing. So, yeah, that made me realize that, hey, you're going to have days where the dogs are going to call you out and say, yeah, not for you today. The other people, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I've so had that happen. I remember this one incident and I remember one of the other trainers at Dog's Best Friend was in the class, which made it even more embarrassing. But we were doing working on having dogs sit politely in greetings and not jump up, and I know there's a lot of discussion in dog training classes about using like the demo dog. That's really good, but I really did and I still stand by this, even though signs that makes things not go well. Try to use everyone's dog as a demo dog at some point.
Speaker 2:I just would always err in favor of making people feel comfortable and having the relationship than like showing off my dog training skills and, for whatever reason, I had used every other dog except this Commodore, which was a mistake, and I swear I was just molested by this dog. It was just like all over me, it was up over my shoulder, it was in my hair, like it was just. It was like, if you want to see, like exactly what not to do with a dog and keeping them from jumping up. This is what it looked like and you know how they look so moppy anyway. It literally looked like it was mopping the floor with me. It was so incredibly awkward and I was like, well, you know, like some dogs take a lot of time to do it, or not all dogs have read the books, and it was just like such a poor choice on my part. But the owner was like, thank you for using my dog. He's like that we did.
Speaker 2:And I don't know exactly why this happened to me, but the puppy had pooped and I had stepped in it and I didn't notice, and I'm walking all over the floor or whatever. I was like, oh, you know what? I think somebody must have stepped. Let's find that dog poop. Someone must have stepped in it. Could everyone just check the bottom of their shoes? So I check my shoes and sure enough, you know it's in mine. And I was like, oh, and I'm thinking like, oh, my gosh, it's like ready to go to the next section. And Julie Vanderloop, who is a trainer at Dogs Best Friend, was like Karen, I'll just quick go clean that off in the bathroom sink, and you know. And then she wiped the floor. It's like, oh, my gosh.
Speaker 1:I mean she's in there taking you know. Again, funny stories will come up and I think it's very important for trainers to think back to the fun moments or the humorous moments and the mistakes we make too, cause we're all human. So I kind of want to shift into the challenges we face, but then I also want to get into the rewarding aspects of it, because we talk a lot about challenges and this, of course, is an aggression podcast, so we're talking about bite stories and really difficult scenarios and the emotions involved. But Trisha's got a story about teeth. I think you had mentioned.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah, when I first started early on, very, very early on a long, long time ago, I started having nightmares and my nightmare was lying on the ground being attacked by dogs who were biting at me. Imagine, literally, you're on the ground and there are like 10 huge dogs and all you can see are huge white teeth biting at you. And I wake up terrified. And that was not good, right, I had have PTSD from a variety of things that happened to me earlier, and so this was like oh, you know, the night terrors are back. But then so I'd go into the office and then dogs, would you know, sometimes show their teeth at me and I hear about all these bite cases and I hear about all these really serious bites and I started thinking like, okay, these things are related, these are related, these are related.
Speaker 3:And then and I don't know how this happened, but somehow I managed to desensitize myself in the dreams. So, rather than them being real night terrors, they gradually became like oh yeah, it's dogs and teeth. And I felt like somehow I was internally desensitizing myself to seeing dogs show their teeth at me, to being in a situation in which dogs might bite me, and it correlated with me feeling more and more comfortable working with aggressive dogs. I don't understand the psychology of it. I have no idea, neurologically, what really happened. I've never heard of anybody having nightmares that desensitize them, but that's sort of what happened.
Speaker 1:You know, it's interesting too, because we don't talk about it in the aggression space, or working with aggression is that's one of the aspects that we have to kind of get used to, because and actually something's in my mind where I think it was an article one of you had written over the years, but talking about how we're sort of hardwired as primates to be worried about things with teeth, like it's just actually unnatural not to be somewhat cautious or automatically get away from something that's showing teeth to you. So and we don't talk about that in the aggression space it's going to be part of your work. You're going to be experiencing dogs that show their teeth, growl, lunge, bark, snarl, snap all those things. And how do you prepare for that? Right, yeah, we can't. You know, desensitizing yourself in the dream is really interesting.
Speaker 2:But that's something when you think about it, it's something we have to do in the work we do. So what are your thoughts there? Well, tricia told me about this teeth dreams very early on in my interning with her, and so I was sort of waiting for my great desensitization and fearfulness and of that, and I mean definitely, I'm afraid sometimes. But what's interesting to me is that two of the very early cases that I saw with Tricia you know it was just whatever was on the schedule the days I started, but in the first week one of them was this dog that had bitten many, many people and it wasn't comfortable on anybody but the owner Really, really extreme. And I remember sitting in there the first day I think it was an Australian Shepherd or Australian Shepherd Cross and you know hard cold eyes glaring at us. You know hard cold eyes glaring at us.
Speaker 2:You know Trish I could see, because you know she's not only dealing with the client and dealing with the dog, dealing interaction with the client and the dog, and then she's got this like green intern in there, like God forbid, I'm sure she's like I hope she doesn't do anything that makes this any worse. And you know, and she trained me not what to every other dog I've ever seen. And I remember that the dog had bitten so much and the woman was in such peril from like lawsuits or whatever that the dog had bitten her really severely and she had sewed it up herself. And she had never and she she had not, she was not a medical practitioner of any kind she had just like, got out her sewing kit, like I might sew a button on, and sewed it on herself. And I remember sitting in there thinking, wow, like what have I got myself into here? Like I left my husband in New Hampshire and I'm here and oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:But because those two cases were so serious in the first week that over the next six months of course there were some other serious cases, but you know there were a lot of like the dogs growling at strangers or the dogs lunging at other dogs on works, and I don't mean to make light of those. Those are serious cases but they aren't the kind that have you lying in bed at night with your covers up to your neck like worried that the devil is coming down your chimney with a dog like that. And so I feel like, because Tricia was sort of my guardian angel and she was in the office with me with her cases for so many months. I don't think I experienced the same kind of Like I felt so well cared for and so safe and protected that I just didn't quite have that, although I still occasionally am sitting in a case and think like, wow, this is a pretty serious situation.
Speaker 2:We've got here Like again. I mean here I've been doing it for you know better part of 30 years and I still sometimes have like, what have I got myself into? I still have that thought occasionally and I'm not sure, michael, if that's the question you were actually asking.
Speaker 1:I was just sort of addressing what we generally talk about yeah, no, just open-ended kind of question and trying to just get your thoughts on that, because it's actually a topic I haven't talked about much with anybody the fact that we have to think about things like that.
Speaker 3:And Michael Kiernan and I saw and I know she still sees a range of problems from separation anxiety you specialize in aggression. I'm really curious about your path in that and sort of what it. Separation anxiety you specialize in aggression. I'm really curious about your path in that and sort of what it feels like. And you know I basically, after I don't know how long, a certain amount of time, I got to the point where I think is a great place to be, which is like anything a dog would do. It was like oh, thank you for showing me your teeth. That's information you know. Thank you for growling at me.
Speaker 3:You know All of those things were like information for me and I think that's a great place to get to, but I had to work through. I should just quickly say parenthetically, the Karen Karen worked with wasps really closely.
Speaker 1:She's way braver than I am, so.
Speaker 3:I should just make that point. So I worked to the point where I was like thank you for growling, thank you for showing me your teeth. So what was your path like? Because if you specifically work with aggression, you are putting yourself in danger. And obviously we're smart, we know how to set up situations, we know to be proactive, we know to make things safe, because nobody wants a dog to bite for the dog's sake, much less ours. But I'm curious about your path and all that and your experience.
Speaker 1:You know it's interesting because I think there's multiple motivations for me focusing on aggression. You know I liked it. I thought I kind of understood it as best as I could back then when I first started just doing aggression exclusively. I like that when you focus on one thing, you just get better at it, naturally right.
Speaker 1:So that's your one thing that you do all the time and that's kind of how I do things in life. I would get really hyper-focused on something. So I actually, when I started wanting to do just aggression cases, I went on Dogwise and bought every single book that had the word aggression in the title or had to do with aggression, and I just took the deepest dive into learning about it, just because you know I really liked it. But the other aspect too, in terms of staying safe and getting used to the growly dogs or these dogs that you know, there could be weeks that could go by and you can't pet a dog. You know, and as trainers we want to spend time with dogs, we want to play with puppies at least once in a while, but there'd be sometimes weeks I would not be able to get next to any of the dogs.
Speaker 1:It'd be all like first time, stranger danger consoles and those kinds of things get next to any of the dogs would be all like first time, stranger, danger consoles and those kind of things. But I realized that also when I was doing a lot of different cases. I'd see a puppy client in the morning and I'd see like a leash pulling case in the afternoon and then I'd go to aggression case. That's a lot of gear shifting. So you go from okay, I'm just being able to pet this puppy, then you can kind of forget sometimes. So I for me, what worked for me was just that if I stay with one kind of just with aggression, I'm always prepared, I'm always going in with the same mindset versus having to shift. So that's another motivation over the years that caused me to go just with aggression cases.
Speaker 3:So yeah, yeah, that's a really great point. I didn't think about that kind of frame shift that you had to make from a dog with separation anxiety to it's hard you know, I mean, obviously there's a ton of different motivations for aggression. You know, aggression, right, she says with finger quotes, but nonetheless, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's really interesting, the idea of specializing, because one thing I really like is I like doing different kinds of things because I feel like I love my work. I love it so much but it is emotionally draining and I feel like I have to protect my emotional health. I have to have, you know, love and cheer and joy to give to my you know friends and, of course, my husband and my kids and and I I like the kind of the switching of it and doing different things. But then I mean I'm, you know, I'm a trainer, I'm a behaviorist, I so I teach at the university, I work a lot as a writer, I've done some coaching. I think I'm always been more a jack of all trades, master of none. I do consider myself an aggression. Well, aggression and play would be my two specialties, but it's really interesting.
Speaker 2:I really like the idea of different people being either hyper-focused or more broadly. We were talking earlier in the podcast about how there's no direct path to what we do. One of the things I love about that is there's so many different perspectives that people come with. Some people come really through like training and people that showed in 4-H as kids. Trish and I both came through research and ethology, and there are people that come through psychology and I don't know. I think it's kind of interesting how our field is so naturally interdisciplinary, and I think interdisciplinary areas is sort of where the magic happens. But now my brain is troubled because I haven't considered this, how the value of specializing is so like you save all that energy of, like you say, the gear shifting. Oh, now I have something to think about and it's going to like next time I'm out running, I'm not going to be thinking about my times, I'm going to be stuck here.
Speaker 2:Trish and I and this is a joke that we used to joke about a long time ago because when I was learning Spanish, I got the words quesadilla, which is, you know, tortilla and cheese or like a cheese sandwich, and pesadilla, which is a nightmare, mixed up. And we had a little issue when we were writing one of our books where we changed the order of the chapters, but there were various references in there. So then the whole thing had to be reworked and I had always joked about like quesadilla and pesadilla. So I think Tricia was the one that was like yeah, it's a total cheese sandwich because it's, like you know, like quesadilla and quesadilla. So even now it's been a long time since we've collaborated writing a book, but whenever we'd have something bad happen, like it would be like oh, we got a little issue, or like, is it a total cheese sandwich? Which I just think is funny, because when you spend a little Wisconsin talking to you, I think, right, oh yeah, don't you know for sure.
Speaker 1:So so we could go on all day long about the challenges and the bitey dogs and the scary things, and we've certainly done a lot of that in the bitey end of the dog. But you know, we should, I think, shift gears to the rewards we get, the joy we get, the satisfaction we get in the work we do, Because we sometimes forget that we forget that a lot, actually, because of all of the challenges we face, it's not an easy career sometimes to follow. So let's jump into that. What you know, if you had a takeaway message about what you really love about the work, what satisfied you, what's you know? So, yeah, let's go, let's do it.
Speaker 2:You can't see me on the podcast, but I'm raising my hand like a kid in the classroom like oh, oh, oh Well. What I love about it is that, well, there's two main things, but I really love the connection you make with people because it's a very intense situation. It's different, like you know, teaching a puppy with no behavior problems other than just puppy issues to like sit and stay and come and, you know, go in their crate and making it. So people can, you know, go on vacation because somebody can take care of their dog, or that they're. They no longer have to walk their dog at midnight or they're no longer thinking of not having their dog. So the way that people I mean I love to feel close to people I just and I think, trisha, this is something we share Like we're not no one's going to ever call us aloof, right, I mean it's just not our way. And the closest that you go with people when you really are really deeply in their lives, in like kind of a strangely intimate situation with their fears and worries and challenges, and how life-changing it can be for people and how validating that is.
Speaker 2:And I was just thinking I had a client maybe. I've been seeing them since last September actually, and they have a very large dog that's aggressive and it's a young man who owns this dog and his parents live in town and they were saying like we're afraid to leave town, what if something happens to him? Like who would let the dog out, like you know? And he has a dangerous job himself and we've got to the point where now I could go in and the dog might not be thrilled to see me, but I could safely let this 200-pound dog out of its crate into the yard. You know, feed him, give him water. You know we're not going to snuggle on the couch and we're not going to probably play, but I could take him for a walk and I could let him out in the yard. I mean they were saying like they feel now that they can travel there, this retired couple. They actually had sent me a text like thank you, this is life changing for us.
Speaker 2:And really what's life changing is somebody can go to their son's house and safely let their dog out, should that be necessary. And I mean I actually I don't usually like dog sit, but obviously if something happened, I'd be more than happy to do this. It's not part of my business, but the idea that we've gotten to that point since September so you know. So that's the better part of a year that it's taken to get here, life-changing. And people that have never had a dog with those challenges can't imagine what it's like to be like. I'm the only person, and my mom and dad, who could be around this dog safely. And now there's actually my husband and me and both our kids, because my kids are over 18 now, so I no longer have to worry about child protective services both our kids, because my kids are over 18 now, so I no longer have to worry about child protective services. And I say, oh yeah, they helped me with an aggressive dog console. The dog needed to get used to kids crawling or doing handstands.
Speaker 1:Now that they're adults it's better, so I just love how gratifying it is and how close it helps you feel with people. Yeah, yeah. What about you, Tricia? What's your takeaway?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I think you know all three of us and I think so many people listening and hopefully people who are listening who are thinking about getting into the profession, so many stories that are so heartwarming. You know it's based on the fact that our emotional connection with some animals dogs especially, but also horses and cats and you know our emotional connection is so profound. We've all written about it and talked about it. It's so profoundly important and, like Karen's case, is trying to finding a way to help people either deal with a profoundly distressing emotional situation or to alleviate something that could be an emotional situation. My story at the moment is I'm not seeing clients but I'm still really active and I have a friend who has severe allergies and has to give up her dog and it's breaking her heart and I don't say that lightly. It is breaking her heart and I have been helping her through the process of finding another home, had a prospective family, another dog, come to meet on my farm to have the two dogs meet. I've been there. I've answered a billion emails. I told her to call me at three in the morning. She had to because I knew how hard this was and she's written me. I know she won't mind me talking about this. She's emailed me I can't tell you how many times like thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I don't know how I would get through this without you, and being able to be in a situation like Michael, you are, karen, you are, and I still am to some extent, of being able to help people through these profoundly, potentially painful situations is so gratifying. It's so heartening and so worth all of the there's a lot of garbage, but so worth it. And relates to one of my, one of the things, I think that is hard for many of us in this, in this profession, which is that what we do is so important from a health standpoint, from a safety standpoint, from an emotional health standpoint, psychological standpoint. I mean, we've all seen families that are about to get divorced. How many couples have you seen who are about to get divorced? Right, we're not therapists, we know we're not, but we play huge roles in trying to help families get out of really profoundly difficult, life-changing situations, and so being able to do that is so heartening.
Speaker 3:One of the things I think people getting in this field need to know, however, is that even though companion animals like dogs are so critical to the emotional health and the family life of so many people, it is still a profession that has very little status associated with it. Right, it's, oh, you're a dog trainer. Right, you know? Even, oh, you're a PhD animal behaviorist, I mean, you know. And so one of my goals years ago like in 1988, literally one of my stated written goals was to raise the profession of dog training higher so that it has more respect and is more professional. And a lot of that has happened, which makes me just incredibly happy. You know, for people like you, michael, and so many other people have done so much to raise this profession into something that is science-based and knowledgeable and thoughtful and so very important. So it's incredibly gratifying.
Speaker 3:But do know that you're not going to be thought of as a medical doctor or a plumber. In some cases I got to say I worship the ground. Plumbers walk on. I am the first to say I think the trays are so critically important, but when you do them out of the bed. But you get my point, you know you get my point is that I see being a professional dog trainer or behaviorist as being a vital role in the health of the community and individual people.
Speaker 3:You know, karen's point is so important is like if you don't love people, do not get into this field. I've had people's point is so important is like if you don't love people, do not get into this field. I've had people come up at the university and say I love animals so much, I just love them. But you know, I don't really like people. But I want to be a behaviorist or a dog trainer. I'm like, no, you don't. No, you don't. So I think you need to ask yourself do I love working with people? Because that's who you're going to be trading most of the time, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah text you probably would never really click, but I always try to think of it like no matter what, and maybe it's nothing, I even tell, but no matter what, every time you work with a client you're creating a story, and I love stories and sometimes they're ridiculous and sometimes they're amusing, and sometimes they're, like you know, heartwarming and amusing and sometimes they're sad. But I always think going through life and viewing the world as a story is an important way that I sort of process how emotional it is. I mean, it's not just a funny story like oh funny thing, blah, blah, blah, but sometimes it's, you know, difficult. And if I do have a difficult situation I'm just like okay, it's just another story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So we've had lots of great tips for people coming into the field and even season trainers that have more takeaways from this. You know, between finding humor in the work we do, sometimes to revisit that, to lift us up out of a slump, finding good mentorship, as you two have found, and good colleagues and supportive networks is also really important and remembering what we love in the work we do right, remembering and having gratitude for all the beautiful relationships we can make with clients and connections. And so if you had one other message for new trainers so let's say, somebody's new to the training industry, maybe a year or two or something, and they've been doing it and they're getting into aggression cases or something like that what's the takeaway message for them?
Speaker 2:if kind of rounding out everything we've been talking about, I think that the best thing, that I think this is true for anyone at any stage of their career, but maybe even especially for people that are just on the newer end is learn in all the ways you can Read, listen to podcasts, watch videos, go to conferences. If you're blessed to find a mentor, take advantage of that. So every single way that you can learn. We should all be doing that and I still, sometimes, when I think about how long I've been doing this, I'm sort of surprised because I still just am so excited about how much more there is for me to learn.
Speaker 2:I, you know I'm always trying to read and listen. I mean sometimes, you know, I mean honestly, when I had kids under the age of two. I don't think I learned a single new thing in that time because I had no time. But you know, normally you're just always learning and, I think, taking advantage of every opportunity that you have and if you know that you learn better some people are not, maybe, readers but take advantage of every way that you know you can learn. Don't skip a single one, because there's just so much to know, and that's probably true for any field. But the idea that and I think, tricia, you were the one that said to me that medical people will say there's a reason they call it a practice like a dental practice, a medical practice. We all a practice like a medical, a dental practice, a medical practice. You know, we're all. We all have our own business, our own practice. But you're still learning and if you stopped, it's really time to get out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's a great question, michael. I think, building on what Karen said is one is um, it's just so important to start at the beginning. You know, I mean I remember the first time Michael and I talked, you started, you had mentioned, michael, that you sort of read everything, and I remember literally thinking, my God, this man has read everything. It's just quoting everything you know, and all of us stand on the shoulders of giants. I mean, I learned so much. You know, karen Pryor. I mean I had lunch with Ian Dunbar and he rocked my world and completely changed, you know, my understanding of what you could expect, and I saw people who trained the way I didn't want to train.
Speaker 3:So one, yeah, diving in to as much knowledge as you possibly can and I think following the history of dog training is actually really an interesting thing, really an interesting thing.
Speaker 3:But I think, along with just soaking up as much knowledge in so many different ways you know, books, videos, podcasts, conferences, every way you possibly can one of the things I think that will help you get is an ability to align your expectations, because I have seen people who want to get into the field who literally seem to think that what we do, michael and Karen and me and all of our colleagues is that basically we spend our days running through fields of daisies with puppies Golden retriever puppies, usually right and that is not our life. It's incredibly enriching and important and valuable and empowering. And it's hard, you know. I used to go home some nights and just cry. I just sit down and cry just because I just seen three clients who were talking about getting rid of their dog, or you know, their dog just figured their daughter's face, or you know so, you know. So I think aligning expectations, all of the joys and the humor and the downsides, I think are really, really important for people, because then you can choose. This is really what I want to do.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and I think this would be a good time to make a note about perfection, because we see a lot of that, especially with social media. We're always just sharing our best work most of the time, and so it can create this culture of everything's got to be perfect, your timing's got to be perfect all the time and the client's got to be perfect, and you can't step and poop and all these things that can happen.
Speaker 2:Wait, let me write this new rule down can't step in poop, and you know all these things that can wait let me write this new rule down.
Speaker 1:So do you want to just speak about that for a moment for the new trainers? Because I think there's this unrealistic expectation about being perfect all the time, and none of us are not even remotely close, so yeah, I would.
Speaker 2:I would love to something that I decided. It was in 2008. There was a play symposium, trish and I were speaking atDT, and I decided a couple months before I gave my talk, which was about using play to treat aggression, that I think it's so important to when, especially if you talk about case studies, to talk about case studies that didn't go right Not all of them, I mean, no one wants to hear me go like, well, here are six things I fouled up royally, but you know, I mean I think I talked about seven or eight cases that this is what I did and this is how it went, and yay, you know, happy, happy. And then I talked about one that didn't go very well and the reasons why and why it was instructive. And ever since, whenever I've talked about case studies, I always try to include things that didn't go quite as planned. There's some exceptions. Like I know, I did a webinar for you, michael, that was about hopeless cases that turned out not to be hopeless. Well, that was the whole point of it. Like they all had to be happy endings. That was the point of the webinar. But I think doing that's really important because I think, especially with social media.
Speaker 2:Seeing life as a highlight reel is a problem and I have to say I am not at all a perfectionist. I'm a very much a good enough kind of person. I take great pride in my work and I have high need a dog, that is a therapy dog. They need a dog where their kid's friends can come over or they could have a house guest or, you know, they can kennel their dog or different things. So I think the field is not necessarily great for perfectionists, but there probably are a lot in the field and as a result, I think they suffer a great deal. I would say, if that you really love dogs and you're really great with good enough, then this is a great job for you, because that's how I am and I don't mean to say my standards are low, but perfection is just an absurd bar.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, anytime you're dealing with something with a brain, you can't have perfection, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Dogs, people. You'll be disappointed quickly if that's the case. So we've gotten a lot of tools out of this or concepts that I think people can take away in helping them in their work, especially newer trainers coming into things to think about. But one more thing for just to round out the topic here is how do you both stay positive? Because, especially in aggression work, there's so many challenges, there's many down moments. You could have a couple weeks of just having a lot of cases not going well or terrible outcomes. That's one of the most significant struggles I see or hear from trainers, especially working a lot of aggression cases is there's a lot of compassion, fatigue and burnout, and I think it's important we talk about. You know, besides what we've talked about, you remember those humorous moments, have good colleagues you can rely on to talk to, good support. But what about you too, individually, like if you were to one or two things that pop out at you for yourselves over the years? You know over the decades that you've learned.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's so important to find you know it's so personal. You know each one of us needs to find you know the things that feed us. You know the things. I think it's critical to get away, I think it's critical to take like a break. I think everybody needs to know their specific things. I mean I, you know, I do yoga, nidra, which is a kind of a meditation, body awareness, mindfulness kind of thing, and I garden and I have dear friends. I had lunches with girlfriends and we don't talk about my profession and I just had been watching episodes of Friends. Remember that TV show, friends? Right, I never watched it when it was a big deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so, yeah, we watch Big Bang Theory. I think everybody needs to find their own, very personal way of feeding themselves, getting away, nurturing themselves, because it really is easy to burn out in this. Yes, really really easy, yes.
Speaker 3:And I think it's critical to not try. You can't fix everything. There are dogs that I mean I think the hardest for all of us are there. We all know, we all see dogs who if we took them, would be okay. Oh, we can't take them because we're full right and no professional dog trainer is going to take them and it's not going to end well for that, necessarily, you know it's just. You just have to give up that you can't fix everything right.
Speaker 1:Yes, that makes sense, you guys, very important advice, yes, yes. What about you, Karen? What keeps you positive?
Speaker 2:I mean I don't know that this is going to be very helpful or instructive, but I think I just have really happy brain chemicals. As long as I can get my run in and keep those chemicals going like I mean I can leave a very, very intense consult and you know, I feel it deeply when I'm in there. But then as I walk to my car and, you know, go on my way, I'm just I don't know if I'm like I can connect and disconnect, maybe more than as healthy. I don't know how I am. But enough about my therapy situation. But no, I mean I just feel like I just have a really naturally happy brain chemicals and if I get enough sleep and I can run, those are the two that otherwise I don't have happy brain chemicals and I just I really I love the work. I mean I really do.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean that every single consultation is like uplifting and joyful and I wish I had a hundred more like them, but I just really like it so much and I'm, I guess, obnoxiously happy, although I, I guess, obnoxiously happy, although I mean I was hearing a joke about somebody who's like a historian and someone talking about putting things in context and people have been referring to her as their emotional support historian, which I think is so funny, and I feel like being able to talk to other people who understand what we do dog trainers and dog behaviors. It's kind of unusual, like both of you are. You know, tricia has been for a long time, but Mike, you're just going to be joined in the club. You're my emotional support. You know dog behaviorists and you know dog trainers.
Speaker 2:And I just think, talking to other people that do what you do because it is hard for people to understand when they think, as Trisha says, we're just running through a field of daisies with puppies, that it's also happy and joyful, like I do feel happy and joyful about it. But it is nice to talk to people who that the seriousness and the weightiness of it can resonate. But I sometimes wonder like sometimes people say like if you're not like upset and worried, you're not paying attention, and I'm like I must always not. I might not be paying attention because I just generally say happy and not upset.
Speaker 1:Well, I think there's a very important takeaway message from what you both said is that when especially new trainers and myself guilty, 100% guilty of this is you get into a business, you're running a business and that's you're like all in, so you forget to take the time to do all the things you're talking about to go running, to go gardening. That's so crucial and I find that happening a lot because, let's face it, aggression. When people are taking an aggression case, sometimes people get very busy very fast because everybody's desperate for help.
Speaker 1:So they're like, oh my gosh, this is great, my business is doing well, I'm making all this money, but they forget to take personal time. And the next thing you know I hear from them about a year or two later Mike, I'm really burnt out. Well, you've got to make sure you're taking care of yourself, because from an ethical standpoint too, we have to show up as the best version of ourselves for our clients, and if we're not doing that, we're not helping them and we're not helping ourselves. So, yeah, very good advice.
Speaker 3:And yeah, and you know, I just want to jump in and credit Karen for something. Karen, you taught me you were always better at knowing your limit and your boundaries. So Karen would be like you know, somebody would call 5.30 and say my dog's going to be euthanized tomorrow. Can I come over, you know? Or can I come at 7 in the morning? I know you're booked starting at 9 or 8.30, but can I come over at 7 in the morning? And Karen was way better than I was at saying like I'm full, I can't do that. And I was like oh, oh, oh, I have to help them and then would get exhausted and overbooked, you know. So one of the things Karen helped me with is learn like I can't, I just can't. I can't do my job well and see every dog, every person every time.
Speaker 2:You know I actually had written a note to myself. I don't know if you can see this. I'd written well, I can't, but anyway I'd written boundaries. I was going to mention that with Happy Brain Chemicals. I'm so glad.
Speaker 2:I think boundaries are really important and I think of it very much like like I used to work, like in on Catalina Island and worked as a lifeguard, and one of the fundamental things is don't become part like okay, but I have to get a drink of water and sit down and use the bathroom before I nurse you.
Speaker 2:It's like I got to take care of me before I take care of you, and that has since become very common in the world of.
Speaker 2:You know, put on your oxygen mask first is the version of it, although that's not the way I knew it.
Speaker 2:You know I was going to say something that when I worked for Tricia you know I was doing clients full time then and also doing one or two days of training classes but she always encouraged me to schedule one day a week.
Speaker 2:I like to do Friday, but I do Thursday where I didn't see clients, and she taught me that's so critical to have a day where you don't see clients, and not just on the weekend when you're, you know, like doing fun things, but also like you're on your grocery shopping and whatever, and obviously sometimes we'd put emergencies in on that day, you know. But to have a day and you know you'd catch up on your case notes and you'd make phone calls and you know when we were writing. We do a lot of writing on those days. And I mean, I remember one day, you know, we people always offer people coffee and I remember one day it was like a Friday and I didn't have any clients and I just went to go wash the week's mugs and I was like like there's nothing less intense than just washing the mugs compared to the aggression cases to see all the you know, things have to get done and Tricia was always.
Speaker 2:This is only slightly related to this, but one day Tricia was doing all this photocopying and it was like and and and it just the way things had happened in the business. You know, obviously that's not the best use of the owner and boss, or she's like, some days I'm the one doing the photocopying, like everybody's got to do it, and I just. That's not related to anything except in my mind, but just different things, michael.
Speaker 3:what is what is your? What is your takeaway? What is the one thing you want to say?
Speaker 1:To trainers or in terms of remaining positive.
Speaker 3:To trainers, yeah To trainers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think now I have to think about this. I'm on the spot.
Speaker 2:Welcome to our world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's taking moments. Give yourself some time to think. Because, in this hectic life we live with these little snippets and these little dopamine fixes we get from social media and scrolling through things. It doesn't give us time to think really deeply. Because that's what I actually miss about when I was driving to so many consults. I do my best thinking driving On the way home from a consult. Sometimes it'd be like an hour or hour and a half away.
Speaker 1:You know I used to drive these crazy distances to see clients and that I would do my best thinking because then I would do my best thinking, because then you can, I would process a lot of what I did in the consult. What did I say? Could I change that a little differently? Could I have done that differently? What are my future plans? Like, I really did a lot of thinking and we don't get that time these days. We don't have much time to really just sit in our thoughts as much as we used to, so make time for that. That's my advice to new trainers is don't get caught up too quickly because you it will come fast and hard if you, especially if you just get into aggression cases.
Speaker 1:No kidding, it's just you're going to be nonstop and going, going, going and you're running a business and you're learning and you're doing all these things we've been recommending throughout the podcast, but you need to pause sometimes. So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's really smart. I actually used to give and for clients very often not always, but I would say okay, here are a couple things I want you to take home right now. We're going to work on this with your dog and I want you to take that home and work on it. I'm illustrating it, I'm training you to do it. You do it in the office, but I'm going to think more about your case and I'm going to come up with a whole plan for you after I've had a day or two to mow on it, because I'm a bit of a mower, so you don't have to fix everything right away. I think that's such an important point, michael. Yes, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:So let's take a couple minutes just to plug a couple things. Now that everybody's listened to how amazing you two are and all of your life experiences, we have some additional life experience information to share and one of them is actually it's called the art of the graceful save finding the right words to ease awkward moments in dog training. That webinar is coming up on october 9th, so probably about a month or about, or a little bit more than a month, from when this podcast episode will be released and that can be found on aggressivedogcom. Karen's going to be talking about all of the witty things because obviously we've heard how witty Karen can be during this episode All the witty things that we can do during a console to help ease those awkward moments, like somebody peeing on your pants or a dog peeing on your pants, I should say.
Speaker 2:Not someone.
Speaker 1:And both of you have books coming out as well. So, karen, do you want to talk about what you have coming?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I also want to say related to the art of the graceful save. I've often talked about things that you find yourself saying in consults just to ease the awkwardness or make people feel better so you can move forward, and I've always called them just spiels and phrases. And then Mike comes along and beautifully names it the art of the graceful save. It's such an upgrade at the art of the graceful save. It's such an upgrade. So I appreciate that that was your day. But I have a new book coming out. It's a collection of 50 columns that I wrote.
Speaker 2:I write a column called the London Zoo, which is about my name not the actual London Zoo in the, my local paper, and it's about all kinds of animals. But 50 of the columns were about dogs and I put them together in a book called my Dog's Mystery Adventure and other stories from a canine behaviorist and dog trainer. And, if you'll indulge me, I would like to read the dedication, which is to Patricia B McConnell, phd, who changed my life when she began teaching me about dogs in 1997 and continues to be my mentor even now. Her wisdom and humor are gifts I can never repay. So that's my dedication for my new book. So that's the most important page. So if you don't read it, the book, at least open it up sometime and read the dedication. I love it, I love it.
Speaker 3:Well, thank God, all the money I sent to Karen paid off. That's all I can say. Karen, that's insanely sweet and I can you know if my husband could attest? Like you know, sometimes I'm just a stupid idiot.
Speaker 2:Your husband's free to think that, but he's wrong, thank you.
Speaker 1:That's very kind of you Graceful save. So, Karen, that book is not out yet, right?
Speaker 2:Oh, correct, it's not out. I just have proofed the copy and it's sent to my editor and hopefully will be out sometime this fall. But along with my non-perfectionist tendencies are like if I don't have a specific deadline, then it's like soon enough, good enough.
Speaker 1:It all is all very on brand for me. Okay, well, we'll keep an eye out for that, and Trisha also has a book coming out on a date.
Speaker 3:I do. I'm looking forward to Karen's book. I'm looking forward to your podcast, karen, with Michael. I'm looking forward to that conference, that kick-ass conference in Chicago in 26, michael, that you're working on. But I do. I have a complete reboot for me. I wrote a novel, I wrote a mystery novel. I started writing fiction years ago. It's really fun. It's really hard.
Speaker 3:Yes, there are dogs. It's yeah, it's real dog-oriented. And I will tell people. It's called Away to Me. Away to Me is the cue a shepherd gives to a dog to run counterclockwise around the sheep. But it's also a bit of metaphor for the protagonist, maddie McGowan, who pushes people away but really wants them to come in closer. So it is available now, just as of a couple of days ago, for pre-order. Its launch date is February 24th to 26th, but you can pre-order or order it on Bookshop Barnes, noble and Amazon. Yeah, the one thing that I have to say to this particular group is that, of course, no dogs die in this book. I will tell you there are dogs that are in a certain amount of danger, but of course and don't tell my editor, I said this no dogs will die in the making of this book, I promise you.
Speaker 1:And a lot of people are thanking you as they listen. That's a big question. I should tell you that people do?
Speaker 3:People do, but dogs don't, because I'm not an idiot.
Speaker 1:Amazing, and I'll be sure to link how to pre-order those books in the show notes. So if you're interested, go to the show notes for this podcast and you'll see those links. Dr Carol Lunden, dr Patricia McConnell, thank you so much for coming on. It's always a pleasure chatting with you both and I'm sure I will see you both soon in person. I know I will see at least one of you in person soon. So thank you so much and I hope to see you again.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, Michael.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having us. It's always nice to talk to you both. Great pleasure.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:As always, what an incredible honor to sit down and chat with two legends in the dog training and behavior world. I hope you enjoyed listening to their insights and I look forward to continued collaboration with Karen and Tricia. And don't forget to pre-order Patricia's upcoming book A Way to Me, where you can find links in the show notes too, and keep an eye out for Karen's upcoming book my Dog's Mystery Adventure. Thanks for tuning in and, as always, stay well, my friends.
Speaker 2:My friends, you too can get a PhD and sniff around on the floor for the smell of urine. Yeah, I think there's some here.