The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Emotional Regulation: The Missing Piece in Dog Training
Ever wondered why your perfectly planned training techniques sometimes fall flat, despite your best efforts? The missing piece might not be in your training toolkit at all. It could be your emotional state.
Max Seifert, certified dog behavior consultant and creator of the Connection Over Control approach, takes us deep into the fascinating world of emotional regulation in dog training. While traditional approaches focus heavily on operant conditioning and behavior modification, Max reveals how our nervous systems directly impact our dogs' ability to learn and respond. Drawing from attachment theory, affective neuroscience, and his own extensive case experience, Max demonstrates why the emotional connection between handler and dog often determines training success.
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In this episode I chat with Max Seifert about one of the most overlooked yet powerful elements in dog training, which is emotional regulation. We explore how both dogs and humans experience dysregulation, what it means to co-regulate with our animals, and how emotional awareness can reshape our relationships and training outcomes. Max shares his personal journey and offers practical strategies for building safety, trust and resilience in both ends of the leash, especially when working through reactive or challenging behavior. Max is a certified dog behavior consultant, certified professional dog trainer, certified behavior adjustment training instructor and an AKC Canine Good Citizen evaluator. He is the creator of the three-step connection over control approach and brings a unique blend of science, empathy and experience to his help working with dogs with behavioral challenges. From his early roots in horse training and therapy dogs to his current work in behavior rehabilitation, max is committed to fostering deep, meaningful bonds between dogs and their people.
Speaker 1:And before we jump into today's episode, a quick heads up If you're looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, head on over to AggressiveDogcom, because we've got something for everyone. For pet pros, there's the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available on aggression anywhere in the world, packed with experts, insights and CEUs For dog guardians. Check out Real Life Solutions, a practical course for everyday challenges like leash reactivity, dog-to-dog aggression and dog-to-human aggression, and if you want full access to expert webinars, live mentor sessions and exclusive discounts, the Ultimate Access membership is just $29.95 a month. You'll also find info on the 2025 Aggression and Dogs Conference happening in Charlotte this September. That's all at aggressivedogcom.
Speaker 1:Check it out after the show dogcom. Check it out after the show. Hey, everyone, Welcome back to the Biting Into the Dog. This week we are talking about emotional regulation, which may not be a term that many of you are familiar with, but I have Max Seifert here, who has been really focusing on this topic lately, especially in the work he does with dogs. So welcome to the show, Max. Hey, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Yes, I'm really happy to be jumping into this conversation because I think it's one that is not talked about enough in the dog world. So you are here to explain some of this to us. So let's define it for the audience first, and then we'll get into why you want to focus on this.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So emotional regulation is less of a state and more of a action or a practice that you have of returning to baseline. I like to put it in the context of nervous system regulation. So not just are you happy or are you sad, but are you really worked up or are you calm. The goal is generally to be coming down to a baseline where you're aware of things, not shut down, but you're calm about them, you're able to process, you're able to think instead of go straight to react.
Speaker 1:Good definition, very straightforward and easy to understand that part. So let's maybe think of a couple examples for both dogs and people, because I think somebody just hearing that would be like oh, I felt that way before, but what about like, what does it look like in dogs and people?
Speaker 2:So in dogs I think it's a little bit harder to define because we can't quite ask them. You know, hey, what emotions are you feeling right now? But we can measure biological data or we can look at certain behaviors. I like to look at how stiff are they. Do I see the stiffness decreasing if they're around a trigger? Am I seeing them disengage from a trigger and re-engage with the world around them within maybe three to five seconds? And of course that varies on the dog and the situation. But I want to see them noticing something and not going up the ladder of excitement. They're not going to stiffness, they're not going to growling or barking, they're coming back down. Maybe they're going to go sniff something, even little disengagements where they maybe look to the side or they look to the handler.
Speaker 2:And then, as far as people, I think there's probably a lot more examples there. Meditation is something that people often do for emotional regulation. I think most therapies are probably in some way developed around emotional regulation. But if we were to go further into it, saying that you pick apart a thought so you notice, you have a feeling, you notice it comes from a thought, something makes you feel really offended and then you go. Well, why did that happen? And then you realize that you know, maybe that says more about your beliefs on the subject than it does the situation. You can pick those beliefs apart and then kind of let that settle and sit with it. That's probably broader than you wanted, but that's. I think those are some examples in terms of dogs and humans.
Speaker 1:Yes, and of course, the opposite is the dysregulation which we'll get into. Yes, but tell us your story about this, like why did you get into focusing on this particular aspect in the work you do so much?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I got into this. I'd been doing behavior cases for a while, I'd been working with dogs for a while and then I got my own kind of behavior case. Her name is Gertrude. She, the shelter, is like, oh, like, she's totally fine, nope, comes home, tries to kill the cats, tries to attack her other dog really bad separation and confinement anxiety.
Speaker 2:And I was sort of like, oh my God, and I had, you know, the technical skills to do it. Right, I was already working those cases but I very quickly realized I did not have the emotional bandwidth. And then I realized like, if somebody who has the skills and the background and supports that I have and I'm struggling with it, what the heck are my clients doing? What are other people's clients doing? And that led me down the line of, well, how do we make training sustainable? And then more work in that.
Speaker 2:And then I'm finishing a degree in psychology and those two things I sort of put together and went the training part. There's always a lot of great information on, but how do we help support the people in particular? From what I my own experiences and talking with other professionals, I think there's a wealth of information around training really fantastic information, but not as much about how to make that doable for people. And to me the best way to make it doable was to teach emotional regulation skills to clients for certain. And then there are also training methods that kind of promote that for the dog too.
Speaker 1:So what do you see in some of your clients when you feel they're experiencing dysregulation, so they're starting to. You know they're experiencing something that you're recognizing and then you help them through that process. But maybe we can use some examples to you know the client that's out and about and their dog has pulled them off their feet and their dog's barking and lunging and they're just. You know, both the dog and the person are having a hard time. So we could talk about the dog also, of course, but we do that a lot on the show, but let's focus on the client side and what you might see where you're saying all right, we need to take a moment here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's sort of like in that situation where it's like everything's out of control at that point. That's I almost feel like that's besides the point, cause it's like, well, all we can do is damage control at this point. But once everybody's safe and I do this sometimes for dogs too but like having people pause and do a body scan or just doing like one of my favorites is asking people where their attention is drawn to, you want to be careful that you're not, you know, making it a judgment or anything, just literally like hey, like where do you feel drawn to right now? What do you feel like you need to do? Because that brings everybody into their body. They sort of go oh, it's no longer about the five things in my brain, where are my eyes on right now, like that sort of helps to ground them, and that's a very easy grounding technique for people who maybe don't feel comfortable going into their body yet.
Speaker 2:Sometimes the five senses thing can be too much or just feel scary if you're not ready to connect with your body. But you know, just pointing out where the eyes are Prior to that, like when I'm talking with somebody in the house, or things where it's not quite as escalated as that. I might see sped up speech. I might see a lot of like nervous energy type stuff, like tapping their fingers or you know their feet or whatever. And to be clear, none of that is like a bad thing. Dysregulation is not a dirty word, it's just okay, like that's something we can pay attention to. If that's helping you cope, that's fantastic. But it tells me that there's something that needs to be coped with and so maybe we manage that differently, maybe what you're doing is totally fine, but it's kind of the same thing I think we do in dogs. It's kind of the same thing I think we do in dogs, where we sort of note it. We don't maybe do anything initially, but you want to watch the distant antecedents, if you will, the kind of precursor signs.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I was just going to mention that it's very similar to like what we'd see in dogs before they go, you know, way over threshold, as we would say, a dog is doing when they're barking and lunging.
Speaker 1:So we see the subtle signs lip licks, you know, yawning some stress signals, same thing for people. And do you kind of find that it's difficult to know when to take a step back and steer them or talk to them about how they're feeling? At certain times maybe they're showing those. You know I'm using air quotes here. Stress signals are the same thing we'd see in dogs but we're seeing in the human, like the tapping, the figures. They're breathing a little more heavy, they seem a little bit more tense in their musculature. Do you find that it's difficult to know when to do that? Because maybe somebody is like that a lot right During the whole consult.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good question. I think it mostly comes down to how comfortable they feel with you and how you feel with them. I only do in-home training, which I think helps, so people already have kind of a familiar relationship with me and I work with them over long periods of time. So it doesn't feel at least in most of the relationships I have with clients it doesn't feel like overstepping to say hey, like I'm noticing this about you. I think they also see me do it with the dogs, so it's, it feels like less foreign that way, cause I have, like I'll just point things out I'm like, oh, I noticed this is happening and so it's less jarring than like coming out of nowhere and saying that to them.
Speaker 2:But you do want to time it carefully. But I think that also comes to not having judgment about it. Like I'm very careful not to try and say in a tone that's like oh, you know, you need to stop that. I just say oh. In a tone that's like, oh, you know you need to stop that. I just say oh, like I'm noticing that. You know, you seem a little bit I don't want to say the word agitated. I try not to say stuff like that, but you know, I'm noticing that your breathing is coming up a little bit. Is this something that's stressing you out and asking it genuinely, curiously and openly? I don't want to shut down whatever's happening. I just want to ask them what they're thinking about it and what they're feeling.
Speaker 1:Do you tie in the same language so like, let's say, you're first helping them understand their dog and you see, let's just say rapid respiration on the dog and you use keywords like you know. I think your dog might be experiencing a little stress right now. Do you use those same phrases and words with the client so they can feel connected with their dog, or is that work against you sometimes?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good question. I think it depends. Again, most of the people I work with are pretty familiar, so they don't mind it, but I feel like if I had clients who really saw a divide between themselves and their dogs, I might have to be careful about not phrasing things that way, because that could come off as offensive or judgmental.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think it depends on what phrase we're using. Right, especially angry, we might say, oh, their, you know, pile erection is occurring, or you know we see the muzzle lifting or things like.
Speaker 2:We point out physical signs rather than assigning a state or a moral value to those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's a good call. So big part of this is the client's going to feel a lot of empathy from you when you start recognizing how they're feeling, cause they're probably already saying well, this guy Max, he really started to understand my dog because he's pointing out and recognizing when my dog's uncomfortable. I imagine it takes a little time to build that trust in the relationship with the client where they're gonna be like you can't go in there at the first minute and be like you look stressed. You have to build that trust and a little bit of rapport or relationship. So do you find that happens at a certain stage or do you have like little tips for that as you go along? Is it like the first few minutes or is like after the first consult or what's your average?
Speaker 2:Hmm, another good question. I'm not sure I've tracked it that closely. If I were to think on it I'd say maybe not until the second or third session or so. But it's not. It's not so much intentional as it is.
Speaker 2:I spend the first few sessions really kind of focusing on the dog, because I have to start where people are comfortable and I can't start with like, oh also, I'm gonna do human therapy because a I'm not qualified to be, that's not what they thought they were getting. But starting with the dog side. And then I might start to notice there are little blocks and like what the human is doing, like I might notice, okay, the dog gets really excited when you come home and I think the way that you're responding to it is maybe amplifying that. So I start with modifying the human's behavior in a way that isn't that doesn't feel as close as emotional regulation, that doesn't feel as personal. And when they're sort of used to me saying like here's something you could change about your behavior in a nonjudgmental sort of you know, open, helpful way, once I have that, it's a lot easier for me to say like, oh, like, I noticed that this situation is stressful for you for X, y, z whatever. So this situation is stressful for you, for xyz, whatever.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, makes sense. Now let's get into some of the science of this, because I think sometimes people hear this they're like oh, that's you know what are you talking about. They you know.
Speaker 1:They feel like it's like like woo right so yeah yeah, you get that sometimes, I think, especially in the dog training industry, and people that do a lot of behavior consulting are recognizing that, the science behind this, and then bringing it into the discussion much more, which is great. Yeah, so there was a paper that came out last year looking at behavior consulting, are recognizing the science behind this and bringing it into the discussion much more, which is great. So there was a paper that came out last year looking at how much the person or caretaker impacts the dog's behavior, and not just through training and all the other environmental factors, but through just their own behavior, their own emotions. Yeah, talk us through what you've seen lately and some of the developments from the science side of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so okay, so there's a couple of research papers that I think have been kind of relevant to this and I will say a lot of this is built off of um effect regulation theory, which is pretty much entirely in humans. But I'm using what we know about co-regulation in humans and then what we know about dogs understanding emotional state and sort of combining the two. But there was one I'm going to probably butcher this name Natalia Albuquerque et al, that dogs can infer implicit information from human emotional expressions. That was in Animal Cognition in 2021. And essentially, they understand what effect looks like. And when I say effect I mean like, not necessarily the emotional state, because we can't quite constitute that dogs understand what emotions are, at least in humans. But we can say that they understand facial expressions and that they understand you know what a raised voice or a happy voice or whatever means. But anyways, they understand what that effect looks like on human features and they can use that to decide who is safe to approach. So this was an experiment done. Both groups were allowed to approach the human after to, like, get food, but the dogs watched one human be angry. The experimental group did the control group just watched a neutral human and then they were given the choice to go get food from either of those people, unless dogs would approach the human who had been angry, even though the dog had not been in the room when the human was angry. They just watched the human be angry. Same human was in the room when they went to approach the food. They didn't want to go to that person for food.
Speaker 2:Very often there's also one from this I'm totally going to butcher Brower J it's called Dogs Distinguish Authentic Human Emotions Without being Empathetic, and that was also an animal cognition. So essentially they perceive emotional differences in the human emotion and they'll behave differently depending on that. This was. They were like training a dog to do some agility stuff and interestingly, the dogs gazed up and jumped less often and were less compliant with even the sit command when they were learning a task from a sad owner. So this isn't even about anger at this point. This is just about like effect and like how they, how they feel about it.
Speaker 2:And then there was one measuring heart rate variability. Again, we can't go to dogs and be like, hey, what were you feeling about this? Because we just don't have the language for that, but a lot of times dysregulation is measured in heart rate variability. So this one is that the characteristics of dog owner and the relationship, those all modify the dog owner dyads. So like when I say dyads I'm referring to kind of like a caretaking relationship or just a relationship between. You know, usually in co-regulation theory we say this between like human and caretaker or like child and caretaker. That would be a dyad For us. We're just going to call it dog owner dyads.
Speaker 2:Anyways, the dog's heart rate variability was predicted by essentially the humans, the human's expression, the relationship duration, all of this different stuff. Conversely, for us our heart rate was the only predicting one, for that was the dog's overall heart rate. So that shows it more that dogs influence us versus us influencing them. But I think that's still kind of powerful data to have in terms of what we're looking at for co-regulation, that at least it goes at least one way, potentially two. It's just that for us affecting dog heart rates there's more factors than just us. There's just the emotional side and then the ownership duration.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to touch on co-regulation in just a moment, but yeah, I was just. I just had Chirag Patel on an episode I recorded this week. I think it'll you guys who are listening in now. It probably would have already come out the episode, but we were talking about HRV, our heart rate variability and the devices we wear, the whoop devices. We both noticed we're like oh, we're in the same thing. It just tracks heart rates, heart rate variability.
Speaker 1:Resting heart rate tracks your sleep and all that stuff, and we're like wouldn't it be so cool if they had one of those for dogs and then they can track the heart rate variability like all the time? And the app tells you how's your dog feeling today.
Speaker 2:That would be cool, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, should you go exercise, should you? Did your dog have a bad day? Because it tells me when I had a like you know, if I go out with my friends the night before and I've had a few drinks or something like that, then my heart rate availability is super low, it's off like way off, and it tells you like you better take it a little bit yesterday because you haven't recovered right it tells you your recovery.
Speaker 1:So and sometimes you can be in the red zone, like, oh, that's for. Like the times I'm like flying to europe and super jet lagged and maybe had a drink on the plane to help myself sleep, and like now my thing's like screaming at me, like, yeah, don't even leave your bed today, you know. But but yeah, I think that imagine for for pet guardians, like if they could know how their dog's feeling without necessarily having to look so much at body language in that moment. It's tracking data all day, all night really 24-7.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that and I think for you know, in terms of research, just having proof, because we don't have a good way to prove. Otherwise we have, you know, colloquial stuff. We're able to say like oh yeah, like this seems to work, but we want proof. Yeah, exactly, and oh yeah, like this seems to work, but we want proof.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and it's. I mean, think about the data they can gather. I mean people would have to opt into that, but you know, like the whoop, you can opt into them getting your data. And now you have this huge sample size, right?
Speaker 1:So if they did the same thing for dogs. They could get this huge sample size of like what is it like the dog's life and what are they up to, can also track activities in there, so workouts in there, how much caffeine I had, like all that stuff that you can put in there. And it's just a great way, I think, for science to say dogs need this or that right or need more of this or that. So okay, so co-regulation can you just define that really quickly for those that might not be familiar with that term?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's essentially where the dyads that I was talking about. So, relationship between yourself and your dog, at least in this context, that one of you can regulate the other's emotional state. Now, usually in this context we're talking about the human regulating the dog, because, in this case, because the dog's reactive or experiencing behavior issues. We do know that it works the other way. I mean, that's why we have therapy dogs, but in this context it's really just about us being calm enough to match our dog's state and then bring them back to regulation In that regard.
Speaker 1:How much do you see in your cases that being an issue? So take out all the typical things that we normally would focus on, like somebody punishing their dog, or the overt stuff or the environment impacting the dog's behavior. So in a black box right and you have the animal and the dog and the person. I should say you know how much are you seeing it? Like if you're saying, okay, it's simply just what this person is experiencing that is impacting the dog's behavior greatly or even to some extent where you need to address it.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I'd say that you could take that out to saying all of it. Really, even when we talk about, like somebody choosing to punish the dog or something like that, people make that decision informed on a lot of things, but a lot of it is due to them wanting to feel control over the situation. Or you know, oh, I have to fix this because my landlord is going to kick me out if I don't Like. It's a decision but it's informed by the emotional stress. I feel like that still comes down to the emotional regulation side of it as far as just the you know, the owner being stressed and then picking up on it.
Speaker 2:I do think that happens a lot. And I think it happens because I don't think there's any one way to remove the emotional side of it from what people actually do, because that's it drives everything, even if we're not aware it does. It drives everything even if we're not aware it does. The book Effect Regulation Theory has some really interesting stuff on this where they talk about kind of the split between the right brain or the intrinsic and the left brain and the explicit and how you know we may think we're choosing something, but we're choosing it based on whatever the right brain is sort of feeling and sending us Like we think about gut feelings, but those are still based on the experiences we've had and the emotions and stuff that we're feeling, which doesn't mean we're doomed to repeat it. It just means we have to set time aside to train ourselves to do differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can you give us a maybe case example where you've seen that? And what you had to do to communicate the importance of recognizing that no-transcript, great.
Speaker 2:But part of what we had to focus on for her was just getting herself to a point where she wasn't panicked about even going outside, so like we did all the other stuff. And then we would say, okay, you know, maybe we're not ready for a full body scan, but if you can, like, shrug your shoulders when you go outside, like as a cue. We essentially do a behavior chain where the dog sits and waits for the door Before you release them, you shrug your shoulders and then you both walk out together. And that led to like a quick checking in with her body, like when somebody's stressed they're not going to be able to do a full blown. You know, head to toe, let's take a breath, let's feel everything, but they're probably capable of just a little shoulder shrug or maybe noticing where their eyes are, although that's honestly kind of hard compared to a shoulder shrug.
Speaker 2:And over time what we started to see is that she became calm enough to do something, because we were making good progress. And then what she told me is like I just froze, you know, like she knew what to do, she knew exactly what to do, but she would just freeze, and so having that sort of brought us out of that rut. We were in, where we were like well, this isn't a training issue. At this point, this has to come down to you feeling like you're able to do the action that you need to do.
Speaker 1:So the things that you're talking about, we're focusing on helping the client. It's going to be helpful anyway. So even if it wasn't impacting the dog's behavior, it's still the ethical, proper thing to do is recognizing when our clients are uncomfortable or need some time and helping them through that as best we can with the again, the credentials or information we have.
Speaker 1:So the dogs that are impacted by their human's emotions, so the dysregulation is happening because of the human. How do you track when you're looking at data Again, we use that word a lot here but data or like how do you know when it's actually changing the dog's behavior because you've adjusted how that human's feeling so cause it could be a lot of other factors of course we know, but how do you recognize? All right, this is helping the dog too, because now you're feeling better in these environments. Do you have any like things you look for?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So admittedly I tend to only really drill down on emotional stuff, like I did in that case, if we're sort of at a crossroads and it's not because I don't do it otherwise, it's because I sort of sprinkle it in along the way in other cases. But there are times, like in that case, where we have to really just focus on that, because everything else was kind of dealt with. It was just that piece. So I guess that's part of it is saying like well, if nothing else worked, then this did. But the other piece I see is that a lot of times and this is not like me putting down pattern games or anything I think they're super, super useful.
Speaker 2:But a lot of times I can tell when a dog is looking for, like specifically, just the reinforcement, like they're like oh, this is the game, how do we do this?
Speaker 2:Versus looking to their human for support.
Speaker 2:And usually what I'm seeing there is that, like in a pattern game, there's usually a pretty clear start and stop, like they see a trigger and then they're rewarded for it or, you know, there's steps in between, there's a pretty clear framework to it versus when I'm seeing it sort of develop more naturally alongside the emotional regulation.
Speaker 2:The dogs seem to look a little bit more open. They seem maybe a little bit less frustrated, a little bit less expectant, a little bit more okay, what are we doing now? How are we doing this? Like, you can almost see them sort of sigh and look to their owner and be like, okay, what now? Or they'll look to their owner for input. I think giving choice is really important there too, which is another like facet of this, where you, you know, give them options to say what they need to say, like if you're going to cross a road or something, you wait for them to say like, okay, do I want to go right or left, kind of by where they're looking? Not that that's safe or possible every time, but when it is things like that.
Speaker 1:You know, we're talking about how the dog's behavior and their emotions might be impacted by the human not always, but might be. But we're not talking necessarily about the observable behaviors of the human. Yet We'll get there. But like, let's say, it's something we mentioned, the dog's recognizing the facial expressions, and so we could break it down in ABC contingency right, say, okay, client, does this particular face is the, you know, the antecedent that a particular outcome happens? So the dog might be just responding to that. But you know, we know that it's much deeper than that. So we could look at it that way. But then you also have the connection side, you know. So, you, we talk about the relationship between the client, the dog, the connection, the bond, and of course that influences behavior too. So how much do you focus on saying, okay, we're missing a connection here, there's a broken bond, a broken relationship, or it's because there's a great relationship there but the client's feeling anxious or nervous?
Speaker 1:in this situation, experiencing stress, dysregulation. Now I hope that makes sense, because I'm sort of really diving deep here into my own brain. But, thinking again and what you would do once you start recognizing, be like oh, this relationship's great or this relationship's terrible because the client's afraid of their dog or something like that, but the dog's still recognizing. You know the emotions of the client. It's really impacting their behavior. So you know you need to fix the relationship too. How much do you get into that aspect?
Speaker 2:I think on one hand I'm going back to the answer that it's never really that separable, because I think a lot of the you know bad I say in air quotes relationships that I see are effective dysregulation on one or both sides. So, like the dog's reactive, you can call that dysregulation and that's going to cause some stress and that might cause, you know, the client being afraid of the dog, for example. But as far as, like, if I'm understanding the question correctly, the relationship, they're both kind of co-regulating Okay, but the human is still going into kind of an anxious state.
Speaker 1:Is that the framework? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I think I mean honestly, I don't think I've ever had that happen, specifically because I don't. The relationship may be great on the surface level, Like you know, their needs are met, like they enjoy time out together, but and this is my own definition but I think that if a relationship is going to be good, it has to be built on co -regulation as well, or it has to have the capacity for it. Not that you have to be co-regulating all the time, that's kind of exhausting but in the sense of you both trust each other enough to to look to each other for things. So it is a very broad way of saying that I don't. I don't know that they're ever fully separable. I don't know that. I've run into that specifically.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I will say that when people are really afraid, then or you know where things are like so severely off the rails. The first thing we're starting with, anyways, is management to get them to feel safe enough. Like, safety is a huge part of co-regulation. You can't, you can't get there if you don't feel safe and, more than that, even if you know you're safe, you can't get there until your body feels safe. So it's like a there's no separating them. I don't think.
Speaker 1:Yes. So those two words, you know, safety and trust are the foundation of what we need to do, especially in aggression cases that we're working right.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, I love where this is going. I think we should talk about the dog side in just a moment, but we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. Thanks for tuning in. I've got something really special just for podcast listeners To celebrate the sixth annual Aggression and Dogs Conference, I'm offering a limited time bundle deal that includes the Aggression and Dogs Conference. I'm offering a limited time bundle deal that includes the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, plus over 30 expert-led webinars on topics like how to break up a dog fight, dog to child directed aggression, fear-based aggression, dog to cat issues, genetics and behavior, resource guarding, dog to dog aggression and so much more. You'll learn from some of the most respected experts in our field, including Suzanne Clothier, dr Christina Spaulding, grisha Stewart, laura Monaco, torelli, trish McMillan and Dr Tim Lewis, just to name a few. You'll also get access to live group mentor sessions with me and join a Facebook community of over 2,000 professionals all working with aggression cases. The total value of this bundle is over $3,000, but you get everything the full master course 30 plus webinars, live mentorship and community access for just $595. Only 50 bundles are available and this offer expires on October 31st 2025, or when they sell out, whichever comes first. Just head to the show notes and click on the link for the Aggression in Dogs Master Course and Webinar Bundle to grab your spot.
Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Max Seifert and we've been talking about emotional regulation, dysregulation, as well as the client side of things.
Speaker 1:Now let's focus a little bit on the dog side, because I think that'll also help the trainers and behavior pros that are listening right now kind of thinking about the human side when they're talking about the dog. So a lot of us know about things we can do to help dogs, right, so we look at getting the dog out of the environment, good management distance. You know all the things that we do to help the dog first feel safe. Talk us through some of the things we do after we notice the dog's still in a high state of stress or arousal. Or you know we're seeing the signs, the body language and behaviors, because that's how we observe these changes in dogs. But you know, talk us through when you're starting to see that and you see a pattern of that or you see that the dog's struggling, resiliency issues, that kind of thing. What do you like to do with dogs, especially thinking through what you've learned on the human side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like to take it out of context. So if I know that they're struggling, I like to call it emotional fitness. But I think resiliency is a fitting term too in terms of their ability to bounce back from things. I take it out of context. So animal-centered education, free work, can be a really good choice to improve resiliency, because you're introducing novel stuff, hopefully at a low threshold, but you're introducing a bunch of novel textures, sounds, objects for them to navigate on their own, which tends to improve confidence. And then low-level stressors like that. You expose them. They deal with it well. Great. We're building confidence Onto the side where we're maybe seeing specifically over arousal, like we're seeing. You know this doesn't just go for reactivity, but like excited dogs do where they're like all the time, all the time, like young sporting breeds or stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I really like to do relaxation type protocols, so things like not always care in overalls. I think it's fantastic, but I think it's a little bit better for desensitization than it is for truly teaching them to be calm, at least in dogs that are smart enough to understand that there's a game. Some of them get really good at knowing like, oh, you take four steps away and then I get a treat and then they're in this anticipatory and they physically look calm but they're not mentally settled, like they're maybe laying down, but you can see that they're getting ready to get up pretty quickly, the frustrations building. So I like Karen overalls a little bit more for kind of handling that and then, once they have that sort of down pat, or you can do like a take a breath protocol or even doing like T touch, like that sort of thing where we're doing these sort of calming exercises, maybe pairing it with like a lavender scented mat or something getting them a little bit excited. So you know, play fetch for a little bit, nothing super intense, but getting them a little bit excited.
Speaker 2:Cueing the calm, you know, making sure they're entirely calm. That's very important. You don't want to let them leave this exercise before they're like, fully calm, almost to the point of, you know, being ready to go to sleep. And then pairing that. You know, maybe day two you're going to do a little bit more excitement and then calm them down. If they can come up and down that ladder of arousal, that's great, and then you might do a couple of reps. You want to be really, really careful because they need to be coming back down to baseline. I cannot stress that enough. This doesn't work if you don't do that. But really essentially practicing the rehearsal of high arousal to low arousal and getting that fluent before we go. Put that back in context.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So you're in some senses where when we talk about arousal right, we're helping the dog regulate that or get that cognitive decision-making process honed in at high levels of arousal, which we know that at too high levels of arousal those cognitive processes can be impaired. So it's interesting that you're looking at it in that aspect. Do you find, if we're not talking about arousal, other exercises like you mentioned, nose work or dog sniffing? In the beginning of the episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So other activities do you find those can be helpful in moments where you're recognizing signs that the dog was dysregulated and then you say, okay, we need to take a break or we need to take a step back because I can see some things going on here. What activities do you do in those like posts over threshold moments?
Speaker 2:Yeah, just doing a treat scatter can be a good one if you have the space for it. I do like doing up-down games. Like I said, I don't knock pattern games, I use them, so I think that can be a good one. Some dogs do better with structure, some do worse with it. Kind of just depends on the dog. So if it's a dog who really wants structure, doing more of an up-down thing, if it's a dog who's sort of like you know, I really want to do this on my own, like livestock guardian types, you know dogs that are like that, letting them, where it's safe, pick what they want to do. So if they want to go sniff something, okay, cool, we'll go sniff something, kind of watching what benefits them best.
Speaker 1:Real quick for the audience that may not be familiar with up-down. Can you just yeah?
Speaker 2:So after a trigger, you might initially cue the dog to look at you, but that's the only time you'll do it. You mark when the dog looks at you. You drop a treat down at your feet, you just rinse and repeat that. Some dogs are going to be really fluent about looking back, and that's. I also use it as a data gathering exercise, like if they're really good at looking back to me I'm like of time or if they're, you know, maybe getting the treat, and then they pick up a scent and they really want to go run with it, then maybe that tells me okay, this is no longer beneficial for you. You would benefit more from doing XYZ thing. I hope that's helpful. Yeah, perfect.
Speaker 1:Perfect. So let's think about a case scenario here, because I think it'll be helpful to put it into practice in a sense. I'll throw a little challenging case scenario.
Speaker 1:Let's say you have a client that's very much in the mindset of sit down, stay come walk nicely like that, like everything's training and everything's sort of operant in their mind in terms of how we get a behavior change in a dog.
Speaker 1:So like a dog that's showing aggression or on leash, should be walking nicely next to me or heel position, sit, stay, that kind of mindset of training. And they have, let's say, like me when I was younger, very little EQ. So the emotional intelligence recognizing when either an animal or another human is having a hard time is very difficult for them to see. So where do you start in that, especially when you see that there's a significant issue you have to address it, be like listen, you guys are having a hard time here. It's not about teaching you to do a dog to sit or you to hold the leash properly. It is about you feeling safer, feeling better here. And then you start talking about that. They're like ah, you know, like what are you talking about? Like I want to, how to sit, where's the treat or where's the whatever training method they might be using. But like, how do you get into that conversation with them?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, especially if they come from that obedience background, sometimes it can be worthwhile pointing out like okay, well, you're using that right now because you know how to use it and it didn't work.
Speaker 2:no-transcript can say okay, well, you know, maybe it doesn't work because you know, maybe this dog is whatever, who knows, we don't have that case information right now, but they have this as the background and so then we're able to say you know, that might've worked on those dogs, but this is why it might not work as well for this dog. And then moving into what I know from it, which is that let's say it's frustration based or whatever, if we know the dog is frustrated, putting more and more and more control on it is not necessarily going to make them less frustrated. It will help them think about it, but it will not help them to process the emotions.
Speaker 2:A lot of times I like to say it's like giving your kid math homework and what they really need is like a timeout to go calm down. Like, yeah, the math homework will keep them busy, it'll keep them from getting into trouble, but it won't deal with the fact that their head is on fire right now. Like that, that's a separate thing. So phrasing it as sort of like it's a distraction versus dealing with the real thing. And then is there a specific moment where you're thinking like, like in real life, or is this just like a kind of theoretical how you would handle it Like a theoretical case?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, Kind of just yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I was trying to think like well, if we're talking like, let's say, we're in a behavior modification session and this happens like in the middle of something like that's that I could give a more concrete example on, but I was curious if that was where you were going with it or if it was not going that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, it could happen Like, let's say, it did happen during a session. You know and you find out like whoa, this really we really need to address this, because I can teach you all the fancy tricks of the world you know and teach you the mechanics and how to reinforce and all that. But if you don't address the recognition, I guess helping the client recognize that yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what I said already sort of covers it. And then phrasing is like well, if you want to try something new cause you know why not we're here, starting with like like, especially people like that I like to start them on sort of pattern game type stuff like engage, disengage, Cause it's very easy to grasp and it sort of fits in there. Yeah, they're sort of opera and understanding of behaviors. So that doesn't feel. That's like dipping the toes in the water versus if I were to just throw them straight into. We're going to do behavior adjustment training. Now they're going to be like no, what is that? We're not doing that because they don't feel comfortable enough with that concept of regulation.
Speaker 2:So I can start to sprinkle in like, oh, you see, like now when the dog looks deeper territory, but we're doing it at a pace that they're comfortable with in terms of like handling things like that where it's kind of a big conflict, holding to both yes, you need to have empathy and ask why, and then also holding to your own, like you hired me as a professional. This is the background on why and, as best you can, trying not to sound. You know, setting a boundary doesn't have to be conflict. It just has to be. Here's what I'm doing. If you don't want to do it, that's fine, but I'm here, so we might as well.
Speaker 1:I think much boils down to the client's understanding why you'd be telling them to do something Like. What's the point of you telling me this? I think that's really helpful and on that note, I kind of would love to hear your opinion on. You know, in the dog training industry we're talking about things like connection-based approaches right.
Speaker 1:And it's becoming more talked about, which is great because it's looking at a different lens of how we can help dogs and their people. You know, we've seen a shift, and maybe you're too young to even I don't think you were even born yet when we started talking about some of this, but yeah, I mean, we saw obviously the history of dog training, the dog training industry was very heavy punishment-based to start with, compulsion-based, and then we started to see things like positive reinforcement come into the picture with Karen Pryor, gene Donaldson and so many others talking about reinforcement training.
Speaker 1:And then again it got very heavily operant-based. So people were like, oh, it's Skinner, the ABCs operant based. So people were like art, skinner, the abcs observable behaviors stop labeling things right. So we saw a significant shift towards that. Oh yeah, I think good things. And you know a large part of the industry is still focusing on that. You know the four quadrants and talk that's when we have discussions about behavior. We look at that. But then, with connection-based approaches, it's really looking at a whole different lens when you think about it. I mean, of course we're not just throwing operant conditioning out with the baby, as they say.
Speaker 1:But you have a lot of different sciences involved, like effective neuroscience we could talk about that but do you find that there's pushback on that, because it's always difficult for some new concept to come into the industry and you get pushed back like no, how do you really know what a dog's feeling? Or how do you really know if a human's just right, like you get questions from the approaches of very operant or you know observable behaviors or behaviorism right. So any thoughts on that and maybe even conversations you've had on social media or elsewhere, yeah, I initially thought you were going to ask about clients.
Speaker 2:But yes, too, with other professionals. Some of them are my close friends and so it's pretty easy for us to just say like, oh, like, let's talk about it more and we'll, we'll figure it out. And I've learned things from them where I was like, oh yeah, you know what? That's a good point, I hadn't considered that. But then when there's more conflict, it's tricky, like because they have very good reason to, to really be firmly rooted in the operant approach because it does work. I'm not going to sit here and say it doesn't, like I said I absolutely use those. They're very, very good. I think a lot of the pushback comes from, you know, based on conversations I've had, thinking it'll take too long, or thinking the clients won't understand, or thinking that, sure, it's effective. But you know, the operant training is still going to be doing the heavy lifting, which might also be true, but I think, remaining as open as we can to conversations, which is, it's very Broadway, saying it you know, be open to words.
Speaker 2:These current times, I think yeah, yeah, but challenge, yeah, but I mean, yeah, legitimately it kind of is. And I see that a lot Certain groups on Facebook where I'm just like that is I don't know that I would have approached it that way. There's like a lot of the things that I take issue with mostly are where there's shame around it, where it's like oh, if you're not doing this, then you are assigned moral value of like bad or you know whatever. And that really frustrates me because it's like, well, people make the actions that they know how to make and that doesn't make their actions right. And that doesn't not say it's an excuse, but like we can't sit here and say that you know you're bad or whatever, because that's not going to help. If you really want to help the dogs, then why don't we help with helping people figure out why they made that choice in the first place? Yeah, getting a little bit on the soapbox, but yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree.
Speaker 1:It's hard for people sometimes, especially on social media, to look at other methods or approaches, or when we're so firmly rooted in our belief systems and what we're doing, what has worked for us and things like that, totally understandable. You know we're all going through those journeys and our own training, development right, and what we do for behavior change. So yeah, so you know I mentioned effective neuroscience. Do other sciences or lenses inform? Connection-based and things like we've been talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me personally I have really liked effect regulation theory, which comes a little bit out of like. If you've ever heard the book the Body Keeps the Score, daniel Hill, alan Shore and Bessel van der Kolk, they sort of they started to have this theory of like okay, trauma stuff can't just be handled with dialectal behavior therapy and cognitive behavior therapy. There is something that we're missing. Alan Shore and Daniel sort of took that to the side and said let's look at like attachment theory essentially, and that's where clinical regulation or effect regulation theory sort of comes out. But the somatic stuff, or maybe you've heard of like polyvagal therapy or like bottom-up or top-down approaches, that sort of came from the science shifting and saying like well, we can't deny trauma victims that these things happened, so we can't just say that those fears aren't founded because they are. But what can we do to help them feel safe anyways? So that's part of it. And then going into kind of the counseling side too. Going into kind of the counseling side too Personally, even though I'm not religiously Buddhist, I think also the concept of metta, which is like loving, kindness type meditation, where you purposely seek out loving all of the things that are difficult in yourself and in others, because the thing is that if you can't do it yourself, you can have a really hard time doing it for others.
Speaker 2:But that's sort of all loving, all understanding, and that's not to say again that we're excusing things, but that you can sit with it and say, like this is uncomfortable. I can understand why it's uncomfortable and I can still choose to see the good in the situation or I can still choose to have empathy for you even if I don't agree with whatever it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm digesting everything you're saying in a good way. Yes, and can we back up to attachment theory? Yes, if you could just quickly explain what that? Is and why it's important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so in the lens of co-regulation theory, attachment theory is essentially this idea that different types of attachment you may have heard like insecure, secure. There are three different types of insecure. There is avoidant, hyperfixated and disorganized. So avoidant is the ones that are purposely not seeking anything out because they don't get anything good from it. The hyperfocus, or the hyperfixated, I should say, is generally what we think of as anxious attachment. So it's the like you know you don't want to be apart from whatever attachment figure you have, Like that's where you get your security from. And then there is disorganized, which is that safety cannot be found on either side and so you're sort of bouncing between them.
Speaker 2:It's basically the idea that different attachment styles lend to different outcomes in the adult. So whether that is different mental disorders, whether that is job outcomes, salary outcomes, whatever. But there's a really interesting study. It was called the Strange Situation because I want to say it was Mary Strange who came up with it. But they put these kids with different attachment styles in with a stranger and they measured how long it took them to come back down to regulation and how open they were to exploring once their caregiver left the room. And it was just them and the stranger and that was really telling as far as what they did and how quickly they would regulate, and that was sort of where they started to organize attachment styles from.
Speaker 1:And how does that play into dogs? So between the human and the dog.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this is going out on a limb because we do not have this sort of scientific evidence with dogs and I will absolutely acknowledge that I don't think we can draw one-to-one with you know this dog is avoidant or insecure or whatever. But I do think we can say, you know, this dog is more likely to solve issues on their own. This dog is really like dependent on their owner to fix things for them and neither of those might be functional. I mean livestock guardian dog fixing problems on their own is functional. Sure, until it comes to, you know, maybe biting people who come in the house because they think that's their job. Like there's different levels of function there. But in terms of seeing it like I just use the attachment theory as a base to say like okay, that's sort of how we understand co-regulation theory is in the lens of attachment theories. That's kind of why it has to be there.
Speaker 2:I think to going a little bit deeper and perhaps above my pay grades. Like you know, you're not a therapist, you can't go out and just maybe you are if you're listening to this, I don't know, but you can't go out here and just overstep it. But if you know, I'm noticing my client maybe has like really wants to fix things before they let the dog practice it on their own. Maybe that's indicative of like anxious attachment style type stuff.
Speaker 2:And there are certain things you can use as far as like again, be careful not to overstep the bounds but like drawing attention to it, not by saying, oh, I think you're anxiously attached, but like, hey, I noticed you really want to. You know, step in here to fix this. Some people you will have enough of a relationship with where you can maybe ask them where that comes from, like if it comes from like, oh, they feel like they need to control it because the situation doesn't feel safe. Sometimes people just saying that and getting into the why and saying it out loud to somebody they trust is enough for them to kind of let go of it. For other people it's something they'll be working on that we're not really qualified to help them with. But being the safe space that they can express those things to, it sounds so unrelated because it's like well, this is the client's issue and yeah, sure, but if it affects the dog and we can help them, then you know.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think it's so important for us to recognize when there's a variable in the case that's really impacting the dog's behavior beyond what we can typically control ourselves as trainers or put suggestions in that are more straightforward, like use a baby gate here or don't let your dog that close to that thing. Those are what we typically think of. But what if, you know again, the client's having such a profound impact on the case? And it's a tricky area because, similar to meds, for instance, or medical issues, right, we see a dog that's their gate is off and we as trainers with an observant eye can say, okay, there's probably a case that needs to go to the vet. Or we recognize the dog's having a tough time in a city environment. So we suspect behavior meds might be an option for that dog. As trainers and consultants we can't say you know, go get your dog on Prozac 40 milligrams, you know that kind of that would be way overstepping our bounds. Prozac 40 milligrams, you know that kind of that would be way overstepping our bounds. And similarly we have to be careful how we talk to our clients and using diagnostic language or making suggestions in any particular way. That's stepping over that line.
Speaker 1:What do you suggest for the trainers and consultants? Listening in now to, first of all, resources, like it's not always something that we think about. We think about veterinarians, we have our resources, we know vets and vet behaviors, but the human side we often don't know where to start. Like you know a lot of things like well, I don't know where to get help for this or to suggest the client, or even if I can suggest for the client to to seek help or explore further. So what are your thoughts there?
Speaker 2:I like to suggest books because I think that suggesting you know therapists or things like that like sure great, except you know they take the client's insurance, they get along like that's too much information I don't know and that, frankly, I don't want to know. But the books, as far as, like the body keeps the score, can be really useful if they're nerds, like they really really like deep, difficult to digest texts. The clinical effect regulation theory handbook, which is a lot of what I studied and got a lot of this from. Stuff like that or even just looking at like sometimes this is less of a resource and more of an exercise, but like body scan type exercises or things like that.
Speaker 2:If they like journaling, sometimes doing this is a little bit cliche and I'm going to acknowledge that as I say it. But shadow work type stuff, I don't know that I agree with the name of it, but the idea is like you are supposed to go through these prompts to understand what drove you to do certain things or how you feel safe, and I think the name is a little bit cliche, but I do think it has value in terms of like well, I can't guide you through this, but here is a. You know, some prompts or a workbook or something that might help you to guide yourself through some of this, and maybe at the end of that they decide that they want to go seek out stuff on their own. What?
Speaker 1:does that kind of look like? Shadow work, if you can kind of dive a little bit more into that. It sounds interesting.
Speaker 2:It really is. Just I feel like this is so my generation. So I apologize if it sounds like absolutely weird to the rest of you, but it's essentially down to literally like there's some prompts that I put together for my clients that are like where do you feel the most safe with your dog? Or when you were growing up, what was your relationship with your family dog like, if you had one? What did you understand about discipline when you were growing up? What does you know?
Speaker 2:If your family dog misbehaved, what happened immediately following? Because I think a lot of us have stories where, like you know, the dog barked too loud and dad got really angry and ran after them and that, as scary as it was for the dog, was also certainly scary for the small children in the house who maybe experienced that behavior before to them and are now realizing like, oh, this is, you know, applied here. So it's stuff we don't think is related. But if you go back and we're looking at like emotional regulation and kind of that trauma side of it, that, oh well, of course that's going to spark our dysregulation because we see this happen in the dog and even though we're now adults, we're remembering, or our bodies may be remembering this feeling of fear.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of designed to get their thought process, in the sense of you're asking questions as cues to get them thinking about certain things. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it Interesting, interesting, so fascinating, and I can see how it could be such a useful tool without accusing or pointing fingers, avoiding the hurtful comments that can be elicited if we say the wrong thing. So I think that I imagine that requires some practice too. Want to ask you this face to face.
Speaker 2:It's not something I want to do, at least not if I'm not really close with them. But most of my clients like I don't know that I'd feel comfortable doing that and I don't know that they would. But being able to say like, hey, here's some things that you know other clients have found helpful, that I even found helpful, maybe you'll get some use out of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, message for the audience. Here you know, after our wonderful conversation. What would it be? What would you love to have out in the world?
Speaker 2:As cliche as this is, I would just say empathy.
Speaker 2:You cannot get anywhere, I think, with any of this if you do not have empathy.
Speaker 2:And I'm not saying empathy is like a as a feeling, so much as it is a practice, which is that you look for the good or you look for why somebody did that, even if you don't agree with it.
Speaker 2:And I say that because I know so many of us got into this field for the dogs. We love dogs, right, but the humans are part of it. There's no going away about any of that. So when we want to help them, being able to not look away from the things they do that maybe make us uncomfortable, like if you see, you know, if you're very force-free and you see somebody using, you know, a prong collar, we might initially want to rush to judge or something like that, and you may still have that feeling. That feeling may not go away, but you can modify what you do with it. And that, I think, becomes really important, because if you come at it with conflict, they're going to feel conflicted too. And now we're not moving towards fixing anything, we're just getting stuck in our you know, you're right, I'm wrong type stuff, yeah, or the opposite.
Speaker 1:I should say yeah, yeah, well said, well said. Max, where can people find you if they want to learn more about you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I have Rosie's Tail Training, which I'm sure there will be a link to, but it's spelled tail like dog tail. I offer in-person services in most of the DMV area so I'm based in Frederick, but DC, northern Virginia, those areas and then online or virtual services through both. The community that I have where I post kind of dog training videos, do some. Actually it's a whole workbook I take people through. That kind of goes through this process as well as actual behavior modification and has like weekly Q and A's. That's called Connection Over Control. I'm sure there'll be a link to that too. But those are probably the two best places to find me. And then you can always follow me on Facebook too.
Speaker 1:All right, fantastic, and I will be sure to include all those links in the show notes. Max, thank you so much. This has been wonderful and I'm looking forward to seeing you again in the future.
Speaker 2:Thank you have a great day.
Speaker 1:I really appreciated the chance to sit down with Max and explore the emotional side of dog training, which is something we often overlook in the rush to fix behavior.
Speaker 1:Max's compassionate, thoughtful approach is a great reminder that emotional safety and connection are at the heart of meaningful change for both dogs and their people. His insights on co-regulation, resilience and human-dog dynamics offer valuable tools for anyone navigating complex behavior issues. And if you're ready to go deeper into understanding and helping dogs with aggression, visit AggressiveDogcom. Whether you're a professional or a dedicated dog guardian, you'll find everything from the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program of its kind, to expert-led webinars, informative articles and the Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from September 26th through 28th 2025 in Charlotte, north Carolina, with both in-person and virtual options. And don't forget to check out our Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes, which are solo shows where I walk you through real world strategies for issues like resource guarding, fear-based aggression, territorial behavior and more. Just hit, subscribe or head to the show notes for more info. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends. Bye.