The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Not in My House! Stranger Danger Aggression with Lisa Mullinax
What drives some dogs to react aggressively toward strangers while being perfectly lovely with their families? In this enlightening conversation, Lisa Mullinax draws from her two decades of experience working with over 4,500 dogs to unpack the complexities of stranger-directed aggression.
Rather than relying on vague labels like "protective" or "territorial," Lisa focuses on observable behaviors and what they tell us about a dog's emotional state. She shares her own powerful story of living with Mac, a dog who severely bit a teenager, which launched her journey into behavior work. This personal experience infuses her approach with both empathy for guardians and a clear-eyed view of the risks involved.
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In this episode, I sit down with Lisa Mullinax to explore the complexities of stranger-directed aggression in dogs, a topic that affects countless pet guardians and professionals alike. We unpack the different motivations behind aggressive behavior, from fear to conflict to pain, and how our response as caregivers can shape the outcome. Lisa shares her deep experience in shelters and private practice, helping us understand what these dogs are trying to communicate and how we can manage risk while still offering support and compassion. Lisa is a certified dog behavior consultant with over two decades of experience helping families and their dogs navigate challenges like fear, reactivity and aggression. She's worked with more than 4,500 dogs across 250 breeds and has developed behavior programs for leading shelters, including Seattle Humane and the Sacramento SPCA. As the founder of Serenity Canine, lisa focuses on practical, positive and collaborative strategies that consider the emotional needs of both dogs and their humans.
Speaker 1:And before we jump into today's episode, a quick heads up If you're looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, head on over to AggressiveDogcom, because we've got something for everyone. For pet pros, there's the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available on aggression, which is packed with expert insights and CEUs. For dog guardians, check out Real Life Solutions, which is a practical course for everyday challenges like leash reactivity, resource guarding and dog-to-dog aggression, and if you want full access to expert webinars, live mentor sessions and exclusive discounts, the Ultimate Access Membership is just $29.95 a month. You'll also find info on the 2025 Aggression and Dogs Conference happening in Charlotte this September. That's all at aggressivedogcom. Check it out after the show. Calm. Check it out after the show.
Speaker 1:Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. This week we are jumping into the topic of stranger aggression, and I couldn't think of anybody else better to talk about this than Lisa Mullinax, who I've known sort of loosely for years. I've followed her work and we've been friends on social media for a long time, and we do a lot of similar things in our line of work, so I can't wait to dive into that topic, but we're going to first define what stranger aggression is. So welcome to the show, lisa.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1:So stranger-directed aggression, or sometimes what people refer to as stranger danger cases. How do you define stranger directed aggression?
Speaker 2:You know it does frequently get labeled as stranger danger, but that's kind of a broader umbrella and that can include dogs that are avoidant of people. It can also include dogs that are reactive to people but then never display aggression, never bite, never make contact. Then never display aggression, never bite, never make contact. So I define stranger-directed aggression as offensive, aggressive displays and behaviors directed at unfamiliar people, and by offensive I mean this is not a dog that snaps because a stranger presents their hand right for sniffing. These are typically dogs that someone comes into the home and they're charging right in.
Speaker 1:I think that's one of the confusions that are out there too, or misconceptions, is that when we think of strangers, it's like all directed at strangers, right so, whatever they're doing. But it could be, you know, a stranger comes in the home and touches the dog's bone or food, right. So when you say offensive, how do you differentiate that between like defensive aggression of a dog that's just fearful of strange people coming to the home?
Speaker 2:I think there are some dogs that have a lower tolerance for interactions with unfamiliar people and those can certainly be defensive. Like I said, the person comes into the home and the dog is largely avoidant, and then that visitor goes to pet the dog and the dog might growl and snap. While that's still aggressive behavior, I don't put that under stranger directed because it's a reaction to the interaction, not the stranger themselves.
Speaker 1:Okay, I got it. So the dogs I'm picturing then are stranger. Comes onto property and the dog just goes for them because they are in terms of the motivation, right. Well, let's actually dive into that. Yeah, in terms of motivation, we sometimes say it's fear or protection of resources or territory, which I consider sort of a resource. But you want to dive into that side of things, like if somebody says, well, what's the difference between territorial, or a dog that's fearful, or a dog that's maybe a livestock guardian dog protecting what they consider their flock, right, expand more on that. Help me understand that.
Speaker 2:Sure, and this is a question that comes up from clients all the time right, Is he being protective? Is he being territorial? What are the motivations behind this? What I tell the clients and what I have to remind myself all the time is only the dog knows. Only the dog knows if they are protecting their territory, protecting their person or protecting themselves from a perceived threat. So, personally, I tend to skip over those types of labels and just go right into what can we observe? What can we affect?
Speaker 1:And if you're going to find help in using labels for some of the other stuff to use it like. So if you want to help a client, say, well, this could happen to you because the dog's protecting a resource you know. So you see something obvious, like it's only happening around the food or a particular resting spot in the home. Do you then make distinctions?
Speaker 2:I will. If the client is using a label that the behavior doesn't match. They might call it resource guarding or lap guarding if the dog is on the couch but the behavior doesn't fit the patterns of resource guarding Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So then I might clarify that way, but you know, at this point in my career I don't find the labels to be super helpful for me. Yeah, I like to really just focus on the things that we can observe and the things we can affect.
Speaker 1:Spoken like a true behaviorist, looking at the ABCs right yeah and looking at the observable behaviors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, so let's back up then. So then the dogs that you would put in that stranger directed aggression category are the ones that are displaying that behavior of lunging, biting, closing distance to the stranger, yes, the function of making them go away. Right, right, okay, got it, okay. So then you also mentioned the avoidant and the reactive dogs that maybe don't bite. Avoidant in the reactive dogs that maybe don't bite, so we're observing behaviors that are, you know, weight shifts away, moving away, barking, that kind of thing, maybe vocalizing, whining. Okay, got it. So let's talk. Well, maybe give us a personal experience about some of these stranger directed aggression case, then, or some of the cases you've worked Well.
Speaker 2:You know my personal experience starts from the very beginning, when I was just the average pet guardian and you know would have been your typical client. My first dog as an adult was a dog. I got in a box outside of a grocery store, under socialized because we didn't have the internet to tell us about socialization in the early 90s and, you know, started displaying some signs of aggression pretty early on. Had a few incidents that, like the average person, I excused away. Right, well, it was the person's fault because they did this, because they did that. And fast forward seven years.
Speaker 2:I was out with Mac, out in front of my house, and a group of teenagers walked by and asked if they could pet my dog and I said, sure, I shouldn't have, but I did. And, as the average person does, they kind of go with that. Well, let's see what he does, let's see if he's okay. I'm sure it's probably going to be okay, right, and he was with most of the kids. They walked by and kind of briefly pet him, but then a teenage girl walked up and she grabbed him on both sides of the head, looked deep into his eyes and you know this was that moment.
Speaker 2:I didn't know anything about body language, but I had that moment of feeling something was wrong, because now I know he'd frozen. And then he jumped up and bit her in the face and she had over 50 stitches, two cosmetic surgeries to repair the damage. Mac was seized by animal control, ended up with a dangerous dog designation. It was every pet guardian's worst nightmare. Yeah, that experience immediately taught me that dogs are not one thing. You can have a dog that is very dangerous with strangers, that is the most wonderful pet at home and with the people in their circle of trust, and that fit Mac to a T.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sorry to hear about that incident. Of course we know in the work we do just how impactful and emotional and the effects that can have on us as guardians, you know, and of course as trainers. You know we see the effects if that happens under our watch or we have clients that experience that If you get into aggression work you start to see a lot, unfortunately. But that's of course the work we do. So that I'm assuming really affected how much you were deciding to work with training and aggression cases eventually.
Speaker 2:It did, it did, and it wasn't something I set out to do intentionally. I started assisting the behavior consultant who helped me, a wonderful woman named Angie Neal. She's out in Colorado, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I started helping Angie and Angie would approach me and say hey, lisa, you know these students are having some similar problems that you had with Mac. Can you talk to them a little bit about your experience and what you do? And you know I found it really helped people. And then, you know, I kept learning more and one of the wonderful things about Angie was she really, really focused on continuing education. It was like we're going to go to this seminar, we're going to go to this conference, and the more I learned, the more I wanted to help. And it was a few years later when she said, okay, you're going to go see this client now and kind of launched me into this crazy business that we're in. But yeah, it's definitely one of the reasons why I am comfortable taking these cases and why I am comfortable taking some pretty severe cases.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we've lived it and that, of course, allows you to be a very effective consultant, because you can empathize with the clients right and you understand the risks. And speaking of risks, we can kind of look at that next, because your background you have a very strong background in shelter work, shelter behavior. So let's talk about that in terms of assessing the risk, because we have a very strong background in shelter work, shelter behavior. So let's talk about that in terms of assessing the risk, because we have a lot of trainers listening in. We have a lot of dog guardians as well listening in. So, when you're considering risks, what do you look at? And helping clients especially understand, or and even the trainers that are listening in what do you, what do you think about when you're assessing for risks and what people should be aware of?
Speaker 2:about when you're assessing for risks and what people should be aware of. Sure, when it comes to consultants, you know I offer mentorship, a one-on-one mentorship to behavior consultants, and you know their safety is really important Our safety when we're entering these homes incredibly important. Obviously, we don't want to get bitten. Sometimes I think bites are bad, but I think we tend to forget that bites aren't just flesh wounds. You know, a level three bite can cause nerve damage and that can really impact our ability to do our job. So I want to make sure that consultants stay safe, and so what I do, and what I recommend my other consultants do, is we now have the ability to do remote consultations really easily in a way that we didn't before. So I do all of my history taking in my initial consultation remotely with the client, so that I'm not trying to gather information over the noise of a barking dog or worrying about my safety or not getting the information I need to, because I'm having to focus on more urgent things, and it's during that history taking that I can start assessing risk, and I'm looking at a number of things. One of the first things I'm looking at is how successful they've been in introducing the dog to new people since adulthood. Now, if this is an, the dog is as comfortable and affiliative with that person as they are with their people. Not just that, the dog reluctantly coexists with that new person in the home. And if they haven't, if that dog hasn't met anyone successfully since they were six months old, this dog is going to be high risk. This dog is going to be difficult and is not going to be the type of dog that I'm going to walk into the home and start tossing treats. We're going to have to go with a much longer and more structured approach. To me that's a big risk factor.
Speaker 2:Another one, like I mentioned kind of at the beginning, is a dog that closes distance. Again, if someone calls me because the dog was barking, growling, running away and the visitor said, oh, it's okay, dogs love me and approached and backed the dog into a corner, that's a defensive bite. That's much lower risk. If this is a dog that comes charging into the room and goes right to the person's leg and bites them in the leg, that dog's a higher risk. Sometimes I think about it like if you were in the woods and you see a bear. Which bear is higher risk? The one walking away from you or the one moving towards you. Right, you can probably guess the intent there without having to mind read. And in my experience, especially in the shelter, the dogs that were not successfully adopted out were the ones that closed distance to threaten or bite.
Speaker 1:For clarity purposes, that's what you would define as, or label as, offensive behavior versus defensive, because we've used that term in other episodes offensive versus defensive aggression but it's not always clearly defined, but you're explaining it quite well here with the analogy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then the other factor that I look at for the client in terms of risk is how manageable is this behavior? And you know that depends on a lot of factors. That depends on their home environment, that depends on their lifestyle, other family members, their physical ability to intervene and manage that dog. So those are definitely factors that I'm looking at and that I'm taking into consideration.
Speaker 1:And when you see these variables like offensive aggression, high-level bite history, the dog having a very small circle, taking forever to warm up to anybody at all, what kind of conversation does that tend to lead to for you? Do you find it's a poor prognosis scenario? Or are some of those cases if you have one shining part of that prognosis like incredibly manageable right that farm out in the woods kind of situation? Do you still continue to work with those cases or do you find that you have to be realistic with expectations and outcomes?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'll work with all of the cases that people are willing to work with me on, and I think it's important to note that risk and prognosis are not necessarily connected. You can have a very high risk dog Mac, I think a lot of people would say was high risk, but he was extremely manageable. So when I was fortunate enough to get him back, he never had another incident because he was very manageable, and I don't think the public at large realizes how many truly dangerous dogs live in our communities and they never will because those dogs are so well managed.
Speaker 1:Yes, Right, we don't see them Right, right, we don't see them Right, right yeah.
Speaker 2:And so prognosis. I think that's what comes in with the client's abilities, also with the environment, and that piece can change, because you might have a single person living in a house with a yard, and they've got that behavior very well managed. And then there's a life event, a job change that requires them to move into an apartment, or they meet someone, a new partner, that they want to integrate into the home right, or they develop a significant health problem that requires caretakers to come into the house, and so that can really really change how successful we're going to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you were touching upon some of the ramifications too. So obviously, the level of bite, the damage that can occur, the emotional trauma, of course, to the guardians as well as the victims of the dog bites, and insurance, of course, you know, hormonal insurance, right I'm sure you maybe had to navigate that a little bit with your situation as well, but that's a common situation.
Speaker 1:when it comes to stranger-directed aggression cases, if the dog bites, depending on where the person lives, and then dangerous dog designations and those type of that aren't universal, you know, depends on where you live. With that in mind as well. But what other ramifications are there that it's specific to stranger directed aggression cases Can you think of? Do you think of anything that's different than some of the other ones? Then this could be not just the legal trouble that they can get to, but just the lifestyle impacts of. You know you mentioned again what could happen if a person has to move, but you know, let's say they're living with it, and the ramifications that can impact the guardians that are out there.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. It's been a while now, it's been about eight years but I put out a survey on social media about living with difficult dogs, put out a survey on social media about living with difficult dogs, you know, and I expected to get a few responses. And it was any behavior challenge, right. I just wanted to get a sense of what this experience was like for the people who lived with these dogs, especially in terms of the stranger-directed aggression cases. The feedback that I received was heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:In some cases, especially when there's a comorbid behavior like separation anxiety, these are people who can't take the dog with them on trips or family vacations or holidays, but they also can't have someone come into the house to watch the dog. And there was one person who responded that hadn't been anywhere with their partner over the last two years. At the same time Not weddings, not funerals, not Christmases, not any of those events One person always had to stay home with the dog. That's extreme. That's an extreme example. Another person built an extra small wing onto their house that the dog could be secured in and away from visitors. You know that was not an insignificant expense.
Speaker 2:And then there's the everyday stuff the people who stop hiking, who stop having friends over for dinner parties. There's a personal cost that this behavior can take, which is one that I also experienced personally with Mac. I was afraid to have someone come over, in spite of my previous experiences with him, because at the time I didn't understand the behavior. I didn't know where it came from, I didn't know what to look for, I didn't know what was going to set it off, and it wasn't until I learned about body language and all of those important pieces that I was able to get my life back was able to get my life back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm so glad you're bringing this up, lisa, because it's something that we don't see as much as we should, meaning we don't always recognize the impacts on somebody's life. You know that when they're living with a dog like that, separation anxiety combo cases are absolutely one of the most difficult.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they're basically they're prisoners in their home in a way. They are and they're there with their dog and, unfortunately, the dog also. Their quality of life is severely impacted many times because the amount of opportunity to see the world or explore and gain that enrichment and those experiences is very limited, so thank goodness we have Sniff Spot now that we didn't have before.
Speaker 2:This has opened up a whole new world for these dogs and you know they are now having they're getting to be off leash and getting that really important exercise and enrichment and everyone, everyone gets to relax. So that has made a huge difference.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I'm a big fan of sniff spot.
Speaker 2:Me too.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely so. Given your background in the shelter world, talk us through some of your decision-making process or what your thoughts are, because we've talked about so many of these ramifications. We really have to empathize with that. You know folks in the shelter world are. It's a very stressful environment to often be working with because of the decisions that need to be made.
Speaker 1:I think shelter folks are some of the most underappreciated, underpaid, right Overworked people on the planet, because of the love they have for animals is what draws them to that. But then they have these decisions to make and the considerations that we have to navigate. Is we have a dog maybe that does have issues with strangers and it's in a kennel environment and we want to get them out to the home that's somewhere, because we know it's often better than the shelter environment for these dogs, but then we have to think about the ramifications that can have on somebody's life. Right?
Speaker 1:So, they say, well, this dog just needs to warm up to people and toss it a few cookies, that kind of thing. And then it turns out it's not that kind of case and I don't fault a lot of shelter folks. They might be seeing that in the kennel environment. But then once the dog gets to a home, maybe some dynamic changes for the behavior that's going to impact the behavior. So give me some thoughts on that. You know the struggles there.
Speaker 2:The struggle is real and it's a very contentious issue in the shelter world. There is a lot of pressure to adopt out as many dogs as possible and there's a lot of misunderstanding about aggressive behavior. There are those people who want to see every one of these dogs their behavior as a result of being in the shelter and once they're out of the shelter they'll be fine. But that's not necessarily the case. It is for some, and I think shelters that have very well-staffed behavior departments that have the right resources to be able to differentiate between those dogs. This dog is defensive because he's charging the kennel, because he is behind this barrier, but once we get him out, absolute sweetheart. This dog is not a risk. This is something we can prepare the adopters for right. This isn't a dog we want to adopt into a home that has chain, link, fence right, because this is going to continue, could continue to be a problem for this dog. But from a risk standpoint the dog shows a high level of affiliation, so this shouldn't exclude this dog from the opportunity of being adopted Right. Then there are dogs that have a history of this behavior in a previous home and they may not display that in the shelter because now they're in a very controlled environment with skilled handlers yes, skilled handlers. So we really need to consider and thankfully the shelter world is starting to take a much more holistic approach to behavior assessments. It's not just a single test that is used to make a life or death decision. You know which at the time, was important because we were euthanizing for time and space. You know those initial behavior assessments save a lot of lives. But you know, as we learn more, we adapt and so now we have this more holistic approach. Where one of the struggles comes in is it has now become contentious within the shelter, within a lot of shelters, that there are people making these decisions and then there are people in other departments that disagree and there's a lot of back and forth. I have a shelter survey out right now that I've gotten about a dozen responses on asking people about this and so far more than half it's about 60% of the respondents say that their shelter's culture surrounding behavioral euthanasia is either contentious or toxic, that there's a lot of fighting happening and nobody wants to make these decisions. I never wanted to make these decisions in the shelter. I would love to save all of those dogs. I'm there because I love the dogs, I love behavior, I like working with these dogs, and so when there is this type of infighting, it takes a huge toll on everyone. Yeah Right, and so you know, if you couldn't tell, I have pretty strong feelings about this. You know, if you couldn't tell, I have pretty strong feelings about this.
Speaker 2:But one of the considerations we have to have is, if we're going to adopt out dogs that have this history we meaning the shelter world need to take on the responsibility of is providing adequate support for that dog in the home. It's not enough to go into what we call a pre-adoption consult, right? You meet with the potential adopter, you tell them about the dog's behavior history and all of that so they can make an informed decision. And what I have seen happen is the adoption counselor or the behavior person goes in, talks to the potential adopter and tells them about the behavior and then tells talks to the potential adopter and tells them about the behavior and then tells them how to fix that behavior, what they need to be doing for training. But it's not so much the fact that the dog you know we can't change the behavior what I see impact the dog's success in the home is the manageability of that behavior.
Speaker 2:What management needs does that dog have? And can that potential adopter meet them without any B-Mod at all? And if they don't feel they can, if we've presented that to them and said, hey, look, you're not going to be able to have anyone come into the house or you need to work on making sure that the dog is confined safely before you bring anyone into the house, and they're thinking there's no way. I have teenagers and their friends are coming in and out all the time. They can make an informed decision versus if we tell them, hey, this dog has a problem with strangers and what you're going to want to do is, you know, just have people come over and give them treats and have them toss treats to the dog. That gives them an impression that this is going to be really easy and it's not.
Speaker 1:Yes, I really like that distinction because in our behavior cases we start with management, always right.
Speaker 1:We start with management to prevent rehearsal of the behavior and for safety and of course all the other reasons we do it. But I really like that distinction because it doesn't set false expectations. Like you said, just I can toss treats and then just backing up a little bit too thinking too. It's kind of like the shelter teams are like a big family, so when we see a client there's a lot of different opinions and and what the potential outcome should be for the dog and you have lots of contention and sometimes fighting in between family members. So I can totally understand how it can happen when we have a team of people that care for animals and that get attached to the dog Sometimes the dogs are there for a long time and it's hard.
Speaker 1:Who doesn't get attached right, even if it's a dog with pretty significant issues with strangers, people? Maybe that shelter staff member that's worked a year with the dog finally makes them inroads, you know, and then they hear about these decisions being made. It must be incredibly stressful and difficult. So I certainly empathize with, again, all the team members out there making these difficult choices and having these conversations. So I want to get into the reasons a little bit more, but I think what we should do is take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors and we're going to come right back and talk about why dogs display many of these behaviors. So let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
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Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Lisa Mullinax and we've been discussing all things stranger-directed aggression. We talked a lot about the risks and thinking through the decisions, especially when we're talking about adopting these dogs. I want to get to the reasons for this. I know we talked about what it looks like, so oftentimes, as good behaviorists would do, they're going to look at observable behaviors and not try to say, well, this is what the dog is thinking. But just to go a little further with that, because I want to talk about how we treat this behavior, how we work on the behavior change strategies. We know behavior is not static, so kind of backing up to what we were talking about just before the break. You know that's. The other difficulty is that we don't know what the dog's going to be like in a new environment, even if we have history in the previous 10 homes or whatever it is. Sometimes that'll give us a very informed decision but or thought about what could be happening, but it still doesn't dictate what's going to happen in the new home because we know behavior is often in the environment.
Speaker 1:So, with that being said, reasons for this we talked about resource guarding. So you could have the dog directing behavior, growling behavior at a stranger going near their resources. But they're affiliative in other contexts, right? Or you have you know the dog that it's a working line German shepherd bred for police work and bite sports and there's happened to be growling at people that approach their person. So the stranger approaching the person. So this is where I think can get a little bit muddy sometimes for both guardians and professionals assessing these cases. It's not always obvious, but do you find it's important, though, in some cases, to truly assess what the cause is? So, whether it's pain, or I need to guard this resource, or I need to guard my people and my property, because the treatment plans are going to be a little bit different for each type of case in some regard, so give us your thoughts there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm so glad you brought up pain because that is something that I would say. I know there was the recent paper that came out estimating that it could be as high as 80% of these cases have some sort of pain component. Because my cases are primarily stranger-directed aggression. That percentage is much higher. I see a much, much higher percentage and it can be challenging for the pet guardian because pain is still not really well understood or spotted in dogs.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes when people think of pain they immediately think of like orthopedic pain and if the dog isn't limping or something doesn't show up on an x-ray it can't be pain. But we know in people we have nerve pain and we also get migraines which you're not going to see on an x-ray. I don't know if dogs get migraines. This is something that I really hope we can discover someday, because I'm sure you, like I, have seen those dogs where their behavior is inconsistent from day to day and that shouldn't be the case. That's one of my first indicators that there may be a pain component, that the dog has good days that they're up for going for a walk and interacting with people, and then they have bad days that they're grumpy and they don't want to. You know, they're avoidant of the harness, and I'm specifically asking these questions in the beginning. Is your dog ever moody? Do they ever seem like they're in a bad mood for no reason, because dogs shouldn't be that way. You know. This is what we love about dogs, is they're generally pretty consistent.
Speaker 2:You know if all is good in the world in the moment. They're pretty happy, and so a lot of these cases really require us. We're not veterinarians, right, we can't diagnose the dog, but it does require us to be detectives, right, digging in asking these questions that might give us an indication that there's something going on. Big one, I see in my aggression cases are chronic GI issues. Right, the dog either never has a solid stool or has cycles of problems, and I know in humans that's painful. Right, it's not just what we can see, it's what we feel. And so sometimes we're going down a rabbit hole, working with veterinarians, getting referrals to an internal specialist, trying to resolve this issue, because if the dog is never feeling well, that's certainly going to impact their behavior. I've even gone so far I take slow-mo videos of the dog walking so that I can send that to the veterinarian so they can see the gait. I have a dog right now that his little leg, like, swings out and then comes back in. I'm like that's not normal.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and I've had cases where it's like the chicken or egg thing, right. So the dog's been to the vet a million times. They've tried a bunch of different diets. They're, you know, really focusing on proper nutrition. Different meds have been tried. But then you dig into the details of the case and you're like, well, is this related to chronic stress because you have so many visitors over, because you have, like, a home-based business and your dog is having issues with strangers? So sometimes it's like you said I love the analogy of the detective, I use that a lot it's like we're kind of just looking at sort of the crime scenes in a way sometimes and we're asking questions about the history and the environment, the arrangements in the environment, and so, yeah, it's the little nuanced details that sometimes we have to dig into. So pain is definitely. Yeah, I agree, it's one of the most common reasons. What are some other common reasons? You know, you see aggression directed strictly at strangers.
Speaker 2:Certainly, I suspect, a very strong genetic component in a lot of these cases. Lack of socialization can be a problem. But you see, those dogs that are severely under-socialized but just need a little bit of time to warm up to people. We might have labeled them as shy at one point, right, and then it just takes a little bit of time and then they're very affiliative, very friendly and social. And that's another reason I suspect you know that genetic predisposition kind of says which way that behavior is going to go with that lack of socialization. Yeah, kind of says which way that behavior is going to go with that lack of socialization. Yeah, right, yeah, are they more predisposed to an aggressive response? Are they more predisposed to an avoidant response?
Speaker 2:I had two separate cases back when I used to teach puppy classes, two separate cases of litter mates that came to a puppy class. The same puppy class lived in different homes so they had different humans. So two dogs in one class, two dogs in the other class. In both of those right around adolescence, those dogs, which had not displayed any shyness, fearfulness, anything of people in that class, developed stranger-directed, either fear or aggression, and two of the dogs were prone to closing distance and biting. The other two were prone to avoidance and in terms of the sets of litter mates, right there was very clearly. You know I'm not a geneticist so I'm not going to be able to prove that, but in my mind that was a pretty clear sign to me that this isn't just about making sure we socialize puppies.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:Because both of these puppies not only came to puppy class, but they had really great families who were trying to do all the right things, and they still ended up this way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly. And thinking about again going to breeds. We've selected for certain traits and working see the same thing Like no, it could be. Somebody does incredible socialization, and you know what us as trainers or consultants say. Well, that's kind of the same way I would do it if I had a wish list for socialization, but you still see the aggression start to come out towards strangers and again you lean towards okay, genetics, genetics, yeah, all right. So give us some other common reasons. So we talked about pain, genetics, other motivations. I guess, if we're looking at possible emotions or Well, I think environment certainly plays a role.
Speaker 2:right, we talk to our clients all the time about not having the window blinds open for the dog to bark at people going by, you know, all day long, because the dogs really get good at it. Right, they know how to chase off people. And then the one time you have the person come to the front door.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that person doesn't go away when the dog barks and they cross the threshold, that's when the dog escalates. So probably a genetic component there as well. But this is where the environment contributes and so does the learning history. Right, the dog is practicing this behavior over and over. I talk to my clients all the time about, like, if you let your dog practice this, then the one time you're there and you try to tell them no, no, don't do that the dog is basically saying no, listen, trust me, I do this for a living.
Speaker 1:I know what.
Speaker 2:I'm doing, I'm very good at it, just let me do my thing. And that can be a hard one to convince people, right? We all like having our blinds open, yeah, but I think the environment can contribute. I will say, in terms of all the behavior histories I take, traumatic experience seems to be the least common. So even if they came from a home, a known abusive home, some of those dogs are just the most passive, deferential, avoidant dogs that I've worked with in the shelter or in a home, not to say that traumatic experience can't contribute to it. Here's one example Puppies that develop parvo or very serious illnesses and end up spending extended time in the vet's office where they're subjected to a lot of invasive handling.
Speaker 2:We don't think of that all the time as trauma because it's not intentional trauma and it's necessary. But that's certainly, from the dog's perspective, pretty traumatic and I have seen I had one case of a Great Dane that only reacted to people coming through a doorway. I had one case of a Great Dane that only reacted to people coming through a doorway. If they met them anywhere else in any other way they were fine. Turned out, the dog was very ill as a puppy and so they were constantly in these small rooms where the vet would come in and then do something invasive, so people walking through that doorway became a big problem.
Speaker 1:But also that was an easy one to fix. The dog was okay with strangers. It was just this one Manage the doorways, Change the association, Exactly. But those dogs that you find, you know, you described as sort of passive, do you find that there could be like a learned helplessness component or just the learning history? Because you would think the other dogs too, when you think about an offensively aggressive dog, the reason we're not seeing that is like the in terms of the cause is like cause. Most people would be like, all right, I'm not going to stick around for this dog, that's coming after me offensively so you actually see less of those dogs.
Speaker 1:Do you see there's like a learn help this component, or more like a learning history or like how would you describe what's happening in that phenomenon?
Speaker 2:Oh sure, I think that can definitely play a role. You know, I think it's different with every case. If you have those dogs that are a little more predisposed at avoidance, they're less likely to aggress, and that doesn't necessarily have to be a learned component. Yeah, I think it really comes down once we can have to be a learned component. Yeah, I think it really comes down once we can. If we have the luxury which we don't have in the shelter a lot of times, but if we have the luxury of having a very clear and detailed behavior history, then we might be able to identify that. But I think it's going to depend with every dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Do you get into emotions with your clients, meaning labeling the dog or pointing out body language that might be indicating fear versus you know, if we look at some of the other emotions rage or anger, if we're looking at an effective neuroscience model, Right, Do you talk about that with clients to help them empathize with their dogs in some cases? Or is it more of a ABA lens where you're just, we see the observable behaviors. This is what we want the dog to do differently when Uncle Bob comes through, or something like. So how do you get into that side of things?
Speaker 2:You know I used to. But what's interesting and this is one of the great things about all the many resources available to pet guardians you know everything from the AVMA website to everything they go to now is explaining this to them. I think people have a better sense that this is stress, this isn't their dog being mean. So I find that clients now I don't need to go down that route. You know they're not saying this dog is really dominant and stubborn. I mean I can't remember the last time I had someone say that, yeah, so maybe I'm fortunate, you know, in the clients I get, but you know it used to be all the time and it doesn't happen as much. So I don't really find that I need to.
Speaker 2:And you know, back in the early days of my career when I was doing that, it often ended up in a little bit of a debate with the client. Because when you have a German shepherd, you know you've got a 90 pound German shepherd that is flying at the window. You know barking and snarling and growling and you say he's afraid. That's because he's afraid. They're like. That doesn't look like fear to me. He looks mad.
Speaker 1:That doesn't look like fear. To me he looks mad.
Speaker 2:And I always think about these things and think about even my own personal experiences in potentially threatening situations. And I had something once where I was out with a friend and we were driving and we were in my car and the car got surrounded by this group of people and it was a really scary situation and my friend immediately grabbed her phone and started calling her husband, who was in law enforcement. It wasn't a conscious decision, but I rolled down my window and I yelled at them to get the you know what away from my car. And anyone who knows me knows I'm an incredibly passive, not confrontational person. I have no idea where that came from, but I was mad. So we were in the same scenario and, for whatever reason, that's the emotion that came up, and so I also think it's a very you know. Again, only the dog knows what they're feeling, and they can be feeling both. They can be feeling mad and anxious. You know we sometimes try to make emotions the singular thing, but they are capable of experiencing conflict just like we do. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:So in this regard, we're talking about all the motivations and causes for stranger directed aggression. Let's talk about how we treat this or how we work on behavior change strategies. So let's go through kind of like your standard. I'm sure both of us you know. So we talk about management. Right, we're going to avoid allowing the dog to practice the behavior, but then you get into, okay, we've got a decoy coming over, somebody to help us, and we're going to start working with the dog, or even if it's yourself, Sure, what are your usual steps for the typical case? And then we can talk about the more you know the complexities and nuances.
Speaker 2:It's hard to say that there's a typical case, because these are extremely complex cases and the environments, the people, the things that trigger their behavior, their reactions, all of that are so varied. But I will say that what I start with typically is that dog has to be okay with me first. Before we can talk about bringing in other people. I need to know what this particular dog needs to feel comfortable and to eventually let me into their circle of trust. That can look very different. For some dogs that it's a very mild case. They just need to be introduced in a certain way. You know, you put the dog in the other room, have the person sit on the couch, hand them a handful of treats. The dog comes in, the person tosses treats. We're good, right, love those cases because I look like a magician.
Speaker 1:Right, I know how you feel.
Speaker 2:You know. And then I have the cases where I had a client a couple of years ago that we took four months to work up to the point that I was interacting with the dog through protected contact. That I was interacting with the dog through protected contact and a big part of that was because we knew the dog had a bite history. But we had no information about what that dog's body language looked like, what kind of warnings he gave, what his tolerance level was. We didn't really even know what the triggers were, and this was a 90-pound German Shepherd.
Speaker 2:One bad bite can limit my ability to work and you know my employer doesn't have sick pay. You know she's very stingy. You know I don't get paid vacation or sick time One of the downsides of being self-employed. So I had to be very careful and I was very, very lucky with this client because she is behavior savvy, she does a lot of training in other contexts and she was willing and ready to take as long as we needed. And so we did very, very slow, a very slow process of introduction where we met once a week and we might start by sitting, you know, in chairs on opposite ends of the driveway. She has a large piece of property so we had lots of space and I find with these dogs it's very important in the beginning that the treats don't come from the stranger, because that sets up that conflict like we were talking about.
Speaker 2:If I start tossing treats, the dog may want the treats but still be uncomfortable with me making eye contact, making gestures towards them, all of that. So my default is always that all of the food comes from the client at first, until I can assess that we're ready to move to next steps, and then, from that process of learning what that dog needs to be comfortable with me, then I develop a protocol specific to that dog on how we're going to do introductions to new people. That's when I then bring in an assistant and we run through that protocol with them and make sure that the client is both able and comfortable enough with that protocol that they can recreate it on their own. This implementation stage is so important for these cases. I have so many clients that have worked with other positive trainers. They have the one session and then they're given a big write-up on what to do next and then that's it, and I think this also lends itself to trainer burnout. Well, we told them what to do and they didn't do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And with these cases, these are high risk cases. These are high risk for the client in terms of financial liability, in terms of legal liability, and it's also high risk for the dog, because stranger directed aggression cases are, you know, looking back over almost 25 years of doing this are the only cases of mine that I know of that have resulted in behavioral euthanasia. Right, these are the cases that are really high stakes and you know we talked a little bit earlier about the impact that this has on our clients and it's really important that we have as much compassion for our clients as we do for the dogs in their care and that we design behavior programs that support those clients as much as they do the dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, because the strategies we use often are very straightforward in what we think as trainers or consultants. Be like, oh we could do, look at that, we can do counter conditioning. You know it's like second nature to us, but not to the clients, so they need that support, as you were mentioning. So it seems like, oh yeah, if we just write this down, most people can read it and they're going to be able to do it.
Speaker 1:But I tend to also avoid recipes. You know you need to be 10 feet away and mark and treat and all that stuff, because it doesn't also help the client in the long term. It might help them for one session that they do it with, but they I prefer they become sort of baby trainers themselves, where they know how to modify things like distance, duration, intensity of the stimulus, and they know how to modify it based on how their dog's telling them hey, I need more distance today because yesterday there was thunderstorms. Or there's another person that UPS driver that showed up at the door this morning, so I'm a little on edge, and so that person can be like, well, that happened, so I need more distance to modify that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I totally agree with you that the support has to come in a much more coaching aspect and they're not just hoping the client's like and they're not just hoping the client's like I can process this and suddenly be like a great trainer or great athlete, or swim in the deep end of the pool on my first day. Right, and I think consultants who work with these cases should I encourage them to learn a new skill play the guitar, learn how to watercolor, learn how to do something new that you have never done before, how to do something new that you have never done before Because you know you take a painting class. If you don't have a good instructor, you can see how hard it is to be successful. Yeah, right, yes, and this is what we are we are instructors, we are coaches, and then we are dog trainers. Yes, right, yeah, we say all the time. If all we had to do was work with the dogs, well, that's easy peasy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, yeah, it's the people side, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And because of the complexity of these cases, you know you mentioned recipes, something I also feel very strongly about. I have a client that I just started working with also feel very strongly about. I have a client that I just started working with. They work with four different behavior consultants and all of them gave them the same recipes and none of those were specific to the client, their environment or the dogs themselves or even the behavior they were just kind of like. This is another reason why I'm so resistant to labels. Oh well, you have this behavior. So here's the protocol. And this client paid a lot of money to four different people and a lot of time and they're not getting what they need. Yeah Right.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And every one of these dogs I'm going to say this a million times every one of them is so different that, yes, in some cases it is about tossing treats and working up to that counter conditioning effect. But it's important to note that even recent studies have shown that counter conditioning is not a permanent, doesn't create a permanent change.
Speaker 1:Right yeah.
Speaker 2:And I want my clients. I set that expectation that we're not fixing aggression.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:When your dog is in a situation that they are not prepared for and they are overwhelmed. This behavior that you have seen is going to be what they default to.
Speaker 1:Yep Right.
Speaker 2:We can increase their tolerance, we can teach them skills so they are more manageable in these situations. In these cases we can develop an introduction protocol, basically a behavior modification plan of one for each new person, and we can bring that new person in. But we can't just say here's how we treat these cases.
Speaker 2:Yeah treat these cases Because when it backfires, in our training community we have set up this false dichotomy of positive versus balanced, and when we communicate that to our clients or they read this online then if we give them a behavior plan that is not effective, they're going to say well, it must be because this method doesn't work.
Speaker 2:And so we can't get mad if they then go seeking the other method because we've told them there are two choices as opposed to. It's the behavior plan that was the problem. We need to adjust that, not simply switch to another method or another piece of equipment or something like that.
Speaker 1:You are so speaking my language right now. This is exactly how I feel about it, so thank you for saying that and explaining it so eloquently too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's the nuances, right, and the details. It's like you were just saying it's like, all right, we're going to teach you how to swim and the trainer's like, yeah, okay, so tread water 10 feet and you're going to. They're thinking you're going to get to the other side, but they don't realize the client's got a 20 foot length spool, right, right? Or that the client doesn in know what counter conditioning is or should, if they're working on aggression cases. But there's a lot of protocols and people are familiar with the different names. But do you have anything that you use a lot of? So do you use like differential reinforcement, or look at that, or bat or cat, or one of the different hats, or foundational skills stationing?
Speaker 2:What are some of?
Speaker 1:your strategies.
Speaker 2:Well, first, I kind of want to point out that love the trainers that have developed that and look at that. And pattern games. You know super smart trainers, very smart protocols, but they are recipes. If we don't understand the individual components and what's going on within them, then just throwing them at these cases may not help us reach our goals Right. I also find it's really important, whenever we're communicating about these protocols, that we are very clear what we mean.
Speaker 2:Pattern games is a lot of things, and yet I have had mentees who say, well, I have this case and we did pattern games. And yet I have had mentees who say, well, I have this case and we did pattern games. I'm like, okay, which games specifically? In what situations? What was your goal? What is the ultimate goal of this? Are you doing pattern games simply to distract the dog and manage the dog, or is there an outcome you want from this, a behavior change outcome? Is there an outcome you want from this, a behavior change outcome? Also, in talking to them, when I say, what do you mean by look at that? You ask five trainers about look at that and you are going to get five different answers. Some of them say, well, I mark when the dog looks at the person. Another one is going to say, well, I tell the dog look at that and then, when they do, I mark and reward them. Or some of them have said, well, it's when they look at the person and reorient to me, that's when I mark and reward right. So in our own conversations between ourselves and in communicating right, I mentioned the client that got the same protocols from four different trainers. If that client has learned one definition of that exercise, they're not necessarily going to be diving a little bit deeper. So that's my little rant about that. So with my mentorship clients, I ask them to, instead of using those protocol labels, I want to talk about what is our goal? Do we want the dog to reorient to us? And if we do, you mentioned differential reinforcement. Here's something I learned recently. I was using differential reinforcement wrong. I was using it to say, oh, it's when I reward the dog for doing something that is an alternative to or incompatible to. But I don't know if you are familiar with Amy Benane, brilliant, brilliant trainer. She clarified that.
Speaker 2:For me, differential reinforcement is when the dog has many options. They can be lunging, they can be barking, and we're only selecting the times that they turn towards us In an aggression case. I don't want that, right, because you know the dog is already stressed. The dog is already experiencing, they're experiencing that learning history, right. And so, while I do want to reinforce alternative behaviors and incompatible behaviors reinforce alternative behaviors and incompatible behaviors I try to focus on teaching those to the dog first and then setting up our practice sessions where the dog is more likely to be successful, right, some might call it errorless learning. If we try, if we shoot for that you know, nothing is perfect so that the dog has a chance to be successful more than they are practicing the unwanted behavior. Yes, right, and it's. I think it's an important distinction.
Speaker 1:Very important.
Speaker 2:Because there are certainly times that I will do differential reinforcement for something with my own dog, for example, who is the opposite of stranger-directed aggression. He is stranger-directed aggressive affection and I will tell you that is so much harder to work with than reactivity or aggression, because reactivity and aggression you can give them distance. That's what they want A cattle dog-coonhound mix that wants to get to someone and can't is very loud, so you know.
Speaker 2:So in that kind of a scenario I have had to just kind of wait him out until he makes the right choice and then reinforce that. But I may have gone way off course, with all of that, I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1:Well, with your dog, there's less risk of the fallout because positive, balanced emotions are happening there, we assume. But yeah, I think really it all just boils down to when you're talking about especially differential reinforcement and just setting the dog up for success. It's all about ensuring the dog feels safe in the environment.
Speaker 1:So that they don't need to reach for that behavior, and it goes back to what you were saying before. We're not fixing you know, we're not turning off this behavior like a light switch. It's about decreasing the dog's potential to do it, because we're setting them up for success and we're, you know, helping them feel safer about it and we're teaching them some alternative responses, and you know. So all these things that we do to decrease the likelihood of it yeah.
Speaker 1:I love this conversation and just have one more thought that came to mind before we wrap it up is 50 first dates. It's just a little nuanced question here. It's like the dogs that you work with and by the end of the session the first session they're like oh, I love Lisa. Then you go back the second time like who are you and what are you doing in my home?
Speaker 1:And you have to spend the same amount of time like wait a second, just do it, and then, by the end of session, oh, I love you again. And then you go back a third time like who are you Park, park, park, lunch, lunch. Like did you get those cases and what do you think?
Speaker 2:is going on, of course. Yeah, I used to. That's great, yeah. Yeah, in my experience, as I have gotten better at reading dogs and have a better understanding of arousal and emotional valence and all of those pieces, what I will say is that those dogs were never truly comfortable to begin with. They may be taking treats, they may be responding to training cues, but this is where looking at the nuances of their body language is really important. If that dog never comes in and completely sidles up to you, you know, leaning into you for pets or soliciting pets if they're always facing you, they've always got, like you call it, the bitey end is the closest thing to you and that when you move they pivot so that they are maybe always staying a little bit out of your reach and they are always facing you.
Speaker 2:These dogs were never comfortable to begin with. They're doing that. I like your treats, I like what you're doing, but I don't trust that you're not going to change at some point. Yeah, right, and so when that's the thing that's happening, that's where I look back and go okay, what do we need to do differently? And often it's slowing down.
Speaker 2:We sometimes get in a rush to create a positive association to the new person. But we don't think about neutral, right? If you're in a coffee shop, you're not looking around to see who's a threat. All the people sitting around drinking their coffee, working on their laptops they're neutral, you don't have to consider them. And then, if they come up and talk to you, you can go from neutral, potentially, to positive. But if that same person shows up at your bedroom window in the middle of the night trying to get from there to positive, that's going to be a long road. They have already shown themselves to be a potential threat and you're always going to be looking for signs that tell you that they are still that. Uh-huh, I knew it. I knew you were creepy.
Speaker 2:Right, yep. And this is really where how I'm designing my plans is. We can't just jump in and throw treats and hope that the dog forms a negative association to us.
Speaker 1:Yeah Right, we really need to be A positive association. Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we definitely want to avoid the negative association. So and this is where you know, when I was introduced to the concept of emotional arousal and looking at positive and negative valence and just high and low arousal in general, I may not always be able to confirm that the dog is 100% in positive valence, but I can tell if they are low arousal versus high arousal and I'm always looking to work within that low arousal scenario.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, good distinction. And good analogy too, with the stranger showing up at the back of the window. So love that, love that. I've really enjoyed this conversation and I would love to have you back on again at some point in the future. Tell people where they can find you and what you're working on next. Oh, I'm working on lots of things, so you back on again at some point in the future. Tell people where they can find you and what you're working on next.
Speaker 2:I'm working on lots of things, so you can find me at lisamullinaxcom, and you can also find me on my podcast, aggressionbytescom.
Speaker 1:Find that on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and that's with a Y right, that's with a Y yes.
Speaker 2:Because I'm trying to keep these you know to be about the amount of time a behavior consultant needs to drive from home to their next appointment.
Speaker 1:Love it. Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2:And I have my Stranger Directed Aggression series. I offer that twice a year, in the spring and the fall, and so that information is on my website. It's a three-part series for behavior consultants about working with these cases from start to finish and really looking at the practical aspects of these cases, and they can also find out information about one-on-one mentoring. I love, love helping behavior consultants be successful in these and other aggression cases, because we are the first line of defense and we all care, and so it is really frustrating when we don't get the results we want.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, fantastic. All amazing resources, and I'll be sure to link those in the show notes. Lisa, thank you so much for coming on again.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much and I hope to see you in the future. Great, thank you.
Speaker 1:It was such a privilege to speak with Lisa and gain her insights into the nuanced world of stranger directed aggression. Her experience and empathy really underscore how important it is to look beyond labels and behavior and into the emotional lives of dogs and their people. And if you're ready to go deeper into understanding and helping dogs with aggression, visit AggressiveDogcom. Whether you're a professional or a dedicated dog guardian, you'll find everything from the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program of its kind, to expert-led webinars, informative articles and even the Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from September 26th to 28th 2025 in Charlotte, north Carolina, with both in-person and virtual options. And don't forget to check out our Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes, which are solo shows where I walk you through real-world strategies for issues like resource guarding, fear-based aggression, territorial behavior and more. Just hit, subscribe or head to the show notes for more info. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends. You.