The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
When Dogs Mirror Us: Exploring the Link Between Human Emotions and Canine Behavior
Have you ever noticed how your dog's behavior seems to mirror your own emotional state? It's not a coincidence. The connection between human mental health and canine behavior runs deeper than most of us realize, and Kerrie Hoar is bringing this crucial relationship into focus.
Kerrie joins us to share her groundbreaking work at the intersection of dog training and mental health support. Drawing from her experience working with a tri-county consortium of mental health professionals, she reveals how seemingly unrelated behaviors—a child struggling to wait in line at school and a dog pushing to be first for treats—often stem from the same underlying challenges. Through thoughtful observation and collaborative strategies, Kerrie helps clients recognize these patterns and develop skills that benefit both ends of the leash.
About Kerrie:
https://www.crimsonhound.com/meet-the-trainer-kerrie-hoar/
Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com
Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
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The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes
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In this episode I sit down with Kerry Orr to talk about the deep and overlooked connection between human mental health and dog behavior. Kerry shares how her holistic approach helps clients navigate not only their dog's behavior challenges but also their own emotional experiences. We discuss the importance of trust, communication and tailoring training to fit the unique needs of each dog human team. Carrie also explores the role of empathy, body language and collaboration in creating safer, more effective behavior change. Carrie is a certified dog behavior consultant and a professional trainer who brings a compassionate, evidence-based approach to her work, with a background in science and a commitment to rewards-based training. She founded Crimson Hound LLC to support dogs and their people through one-on-one, relationship-centered sessions. Carrie believes in meeting both canine and human needs through customized plans that prioritize safety, understanding and lasting connection. And before we jump into today's episode, a quick heads up If you're looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, head on over to aggressivedogcom, because we've got something for everyone. For pet pros, there's the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available on aggression, packed with expert insights and CEUs. For dog guardians, check out Real Life Solutions, a practical course for everyday challenges like leash reactivity, resource guarding and dog to human aggression, and if you want full access to expert webinars, live mentor sessions and exclusive discounts, the ultimate access membership is just $29.95 a month. You'll also find info on the 2025 Aggression and Dogs Conference happening in Charlotte this September. That's all at aggressivedogcom. Check it out after the show.
Speaker 1:Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. This week, we're going to be focusing a little bit on the human side as well as the dog side, and I've got Carrie Hoare here with me who is going to be focusing on this topic, because this is her specialty. She really focuses on both the human side and humans that are experiencing mental health disorders or challenges, as well as dogs who might be struggling and how we can really help both sides by understanding both sides of the equation. So welcome to the show, keri.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:So tell us more about the work you're doing, your focus and how you got into it in the first place.
Speaker 2:So I have always had animals, menagerie of animals, so I've always been training chickens and dogs and horses and anything.
Speaker 2:And I taught for 20 years and when I retired there I did a medical retirement I was looking for something to do and in the meantime I was still working with training my own dogs and I kind of fell into would you like to teach some group dog classes? Did that for a while and then I branched out on my own, started my own business about four years ago and one of the people that I had been working closely with at the place where I was teaching group classes happened to be in her office with one of her foster dogs one day and she rented space from a counseling business and she was working with this dog on some of Leslie McDevitt's pattern games and one of the therapists saw her working with the dog and said hey, what do you do on that? And my colleague explained to her what she was doing and she said you know, that looks a lot like what we do with kids for coping skills that have anxiety disorders and we need to develop coping skills.
Speaker 2:Do you think you could develop that into something with people? She contacted me and said, hey, do you think we can do this? And I said yeah, but I don't have a dog that I can bring in. My dogs have anxiety and they're just not set up to be that kind of a dog. But I'm a dog trainer. I would love to go and work with people with their own dog. Kind of the mindset then was how can I help them with coping skills and help keep that dog in the home right, so that they're understanding behavior and things like that and keeping the dog in the home? And it just has grown and blossomed from there with all kinds of levels of can we work with, helping you find low-cost veterinary care and just all kinds of things to help with the welfare of the dog and the welfare of the person. So it's really just continuing to blossom.
Speaker 1:And that must be especially challenging because when we're working with you know we're going in and we're seeing clients that might have an aggression case or some other behavior issues they're experiencing with their dog, behavior issues they're experiencing with their dog. Now you're kind of navigating two sides where there can be some unique challenges and how much the dog and the person might be sort of feeding each other's behavior or patterns, right yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so in what I'm doing, I'm working with a tri-county consortium and they it's called Community Centered Services and what they do is they have all kinds of vendors come in, so they have therapists, art therapists, equine therapy, skills workers, all kinds of stuff, and they come in and the consumer or their caregiver together form a team of their service facilitator, their social worker, maybe a therapist, art therapy, you know all kinds of stuff, and they bring this team together and we meet monthly and we talk about there's a set of goals that that client has. This is what I'm working for, this is what good mental health looks like for me, and so this is what we're working for towards and we all kind of work together. We meet monthly and we talk about what are we struggling with, what are the successes, and we kind of go from there, talk about what are we struggling with, what are the successes, and we kind of go from there and I'll say, well, okay, so I'm seeing this consumer maybe is having some issues with impulse control, just doing things on impulse and not recognizing the long-term consequences. And then I can come back with well, you know, they have a teenage dog. I'm seeing that with the dog, where the dog is rushing out the door. And maybe that impulse control is also seen in leash walking, where they're jerking on the leash rather than calling the dog back, and things like that. And so we kind of all look at okay, what are the struggles right now and how can we incorporate all of this? And when I meet with a client for the first time, I will say you know, what do you like about the dog, what bothers you about the dog? What would you like to change? What are the struggles? What is your relationship like? And I ask the caregiver as well. And so we look at you know, the dog may be fearful, the dog may be. There may be no relationship at all because that child maybe struggles with being physical when they get upset. And the dog has just learned I can't trust you.
Speaker 2:So we work on a lot of relationship building, whether it's making it stronger or looking at it from a different lens. So I try to work everything through the lens of the dog, because the consumer is always being bombarded and they're always the center of it with therapy sessions and stuff. It's always what do you think? How do you feel? What is this, what is that? And so I try to focus it through the dog onto the person. So we may look at, well, what happens if the dog rushes out the door and runs into the street and maybe one day it's fine, but another day it's not and we can't take that back. So what can we do to help with that? You know, and I focus everything is on you can't touch the dog.
Speaker 2:When we're teaching the dog something, there's no touching the dog and there's kind words, and rewards are the only thing you can use Really kind of working with. How can we build that relationship with the dog and then bring it back to the human side. So we're looking at the body language of the dog and how does the dog feel emotionally when they're making those different signals? Well, what does it look like when a person feels anxious or when a person feels fearful or happy, and how can you recognize that and how can you respond to that?
Speaker 2:A lot of let's teach the dog to jump over something and a lot of times they'll set it up too high and so we'll look at. Well, you know, what would that look like with you If your dog walks up to an eye level? Would you be able to do that if someone set it up and they'll oh no, can't do that. So then they will think, okay, how can I help the dog be more successful? And just that kind of building a lot of social cueing and social interactions, kind of viewing it through the lens of the dog at all times, because I'm not a therapist, I'm a dog trainer, so it's always got to come through that lens of the dog as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you feel that resonates with the client sometimes? So they might see themselves you know their dog having similar behavior patterns or challenges even. And do you find that sometimes they might blame themselves, like, oh, I'm like this and now my dog's like this. Or does it help them understand that? Like, wow, this stuff is working here, so why can't it work for me? Or vice versa, so like, what do you see there?
Speaker 2:Both, both. I've got clients who may have social anxiety and they have a dog who's reactive on leash. And I've done this. I know I tense up, I know I jerk on the leash, I know I'm worried about people approaching me and now my dog is like this and now I've broken my dog. But then we work through. So how can we make you feel more comfortable and more confident with that dog?
Speaker 2:All the things we do with reactive dog training the taking deep breaths, going at it where the dog can be successful and I walk along with them. Okay, now there's a dog coming. What are we going to do here? We're going to stop, we're going to take some deep breaths, we're going to play some games with the dog and work that way. And then there's other times where, a lot of times with the kids, they have a lot more trouble connecting the dots. So you've got to be sometimes a little bit more pointed with that. So if we have a child who has difficulty waiting in line or taking their turn and they get upset when things don't go their way all the time, a lot of times they have a dog and a lot of times they have a pug for some reason, and pugs do not want to wait their turn for anything. They want to push their nose and get the treat first. They want to be first for everything and so we work on.
Speaker 2:Again going back to Leslie and McDevitt, we work on volunteer sharing between the dogs. So what does this look like at school If kids are in line and everybody's excited to go to recess and kids are pushing? What does the teacher do to help everybody kind of calm down and what is similar here? What does the teacher do to help everybody kind of calm down and what is similar here? When are the dogs having scuffles? It's always when they're excited. And when are the kids at school having scuffles and pushing sessions? It's always when they're excited and waiting in line. And so trying really to kind of more pointedly push that to them and just discovering a lot of things, like I had one client who was having a lot of the crisis teams were coming in with healthcare workers and the police and stuff and they had two little dogs and people are coming in and out of the house and the doors open, and so I asked one day so where are the dogs when all this is happening and are they okay when dysregulation is happening.
Speaker 2:So well, you know they're running around and they're worried and they don't know what to do. You know. So then we would teach a flight cue for the dog. So we taught those dogs that a really happy kind of almost like an urgency U-turn. When this happens, we're going to playfully rush into their safe space, a mudroom or somewhere, rush in there, throw some treats and then shut the door.
Speaker 2:I find that having that team is fantastic, because those crisis workers are saying, oh my gosh, I never thought about that. What do I need to do? When I come in, I can help move those dogs into the room, and so they're not getting out and adding things to their crisis plan. If everybody has to leave with this person to go to the hospital, what are we going to do with the dog? Do we have it on the plan? Somebody's going to take care of the dog, and stuff like that. So yeah, just like opening a can of worms of oh my gosh, what can we add? But it's so much, a lot of yes, I did this and then a lot of it is they don't recognize it.
Speaker 2:They don't recognize. When I see somebody on TikTok barking in their dog's face and recording it and I climb into my dog's crate and bark in their face and they nip at me we've got to talk about personal space and breeding, body language and things like that because they don't connect the dots at that point yeah, yeah that what they're doing is affecting the dog's behavior.
Speaker 1:So tell us more about this team approach. So you have the human professionals in there, you have the dog pro in there, which is you, and you're communicating as a team about what steps to take forward. So maybe we can use an example you know the child that has a hard time waiting in line, and then you can teach that child how to train their dog how to wait, and so do you find that that's really beneficial for what the human health professionals doing and saying, okay, if we teach this child how to do that, they can be able to recognize in themselves. This also applies to me.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. And the other thing that it helps with is that it removes some of the conflict in the home. So there's less conflict in the home. That it's helping then move other areas forward. If we're not struggling with the child and the dog constantly, we're kind of able to use maybe some of the things that I've taught them to interacting with siblings and things like that. Then it kind of blows out some of those candles that we talk about, you know, under the boiling pot of water. It acts as a glimmer to kind of blow out some of those trouble spots and allowing them to concentrate more on their own mental health or their own interactions at school or things like that. So, yeah, it really does help. And you know I'll come at it with.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm a dog trainer, I'm not a therapist, but when I work with reactive dogs this is where I work from I start where the dog can be successful and then we move forward and it can help with because there's sometimes school representatives on the team and we just all kind of brainstorm about this is where the client's struggling right now. What can everybody on this team do to help right now with what we're struggling with? You know, I see impulse control issues with the dog. So let's talk about working on impulse control and why is it important to teach weight and why is it important to think before you act, and things like that. So it's, it's fantastic. There's so much brainstorming and things that I can just kind of, oh, I can riff off of that and then I can bring it into my general dog training clients as well. You know, I learned this and it works great.
Speaker 1:Where do you start with all of this? Because I can imagine just how complex it gets, especially if there's a disconnect in the relationships in the home between the dog and some of the humans. There's a disconnect in the relationships in the home between the dog and some of the humans. So you have, let's say, you know, a single parent out there with really struggling and you're asking them. Okay, so you have this going on with your child and now you have this going on with your dog and I'm going to ask you to do this, and this person's going to ask you to do that. Like, where do you start?
Speaker 2:And is there any kind of secret starting point that you typically go to with your clients like this I always start with asking them their favorite thing about their dog and if there's anything that bothers them about their dog that they would like their dog not to do. And then we always start from a body language perspective. I tell them you know your dog is trying to tell you things, so let's learn about what he's trying to say. With kids I do anthropomorphize more than I would with adults, because I think it helps them recognize more in themselves what this might look like. So we always start with body language, and so I've got a whole bunch of pictures of dogs that I've printed out on like playing card size decks, and I've got one deck of golden retrievers doing all the body language signals and I will start out with what do they know already. And so we'll play kind of a traffic signal game with here's the set of cards, and what I want you to do is I want you to put in one pile of the dogs that you think are happy and the other pile I want you to put in dogs that you think are maybe scared or anxious or angry, and then in the middle pile I want you to put down the dogs that either you feel that they are unsure or you're not sure what to do with them, and that kind of helps me see where they're at, because so many times and even the research is showing that kids to adults can recognize fear and anger in dogs. They can recognize a dog that is very afraid, hiding, tail tucked et cetera, and they can recognize a dog that is barking and lunging and growling and is angry. But what they struggle with universally is recognizing those dogs that are conflicted or are showing the first signs of being uncomfortable. And that's what I see in kids. They'll take dogs that are doing that real deep grimace where they're almost doing that huge smile and they've got all the tension lines in their face and if you didn't know what the dog was doing, it looks like the dog's smiling, and so they'll put that in the happy pile because the dog is smiling. And so I kind of start from there and then I will pick up the piles and we'll go through each card why did you put it in this pile? What did you see? And then we'll start with just kind of a few general things of this is what dogs look like when they're happy. This is what they look like when they're uncomfortable, and then each week we have one body part that they look at. So then each week we have one body part that they look at. So maybe, and they get a pick this week, we're you know, what do you want to look at? You want to look at ears, you want to look at eyes, you want to look at their mouth, what do you want to look at? And let's say they pick ears, okay. So what I want you to do is I want you to. When Fluffy is walking around, happy and you're playing together, or he's resting, what do his ears look like? When he is barking out the window at a squirrel, what do his ears look like? So then I want them to kind of look at what is the circumstance around that and then report back to me. And sometimes, when they report back, I have to kind of pull it out of them.
Speaker 2:I had one consumer one time who actually wrote me a book report. She actually wrote it all out. This was my homework. I wrote it all out. This was all the times I saw. I think it was. We were working on nose flicks, tongue flicks, and she wrote it all out. This is when I saw it. This is what they were doing. So then I'll say, okay, so we saw, let's say we saw tongue flicks. Did you see it more when you were approaching the dog to give him a hug, or when did you see it? And so we kind of look at body language and really try to get them to understand what fear looks like in the dog and how to approach that. What does it mean? And then I try to start to can you show me your face when you're fearful? What do you look like? I also do an emotion card of the week.
Speaker 2:So, I've got a different set of cards, you know, thicker set, where I've just printed out dogs doing a billion dog things. And I'll say, go through the deck and pick one card, two cards, three cards of a dog that you think feels the way that you feel today. And they'll pick out their cards and sometimes they'll say, oh, you look like you feel growly today or something like that, and do you want to tell me why you feel growly or why do you think this dog feels growly? And so they'll tell me a story of well, they went to school and this happened. And so we kind of go down that emotions road every single week, we talk about that every single week and then we go at.
Speaker 2:A lot of the kids need help with patience and impulse control. So we work on skills and again, you can only use a kind voice and food, and so you've got to be patient and maybe they want the dog to roll over. Wonderful, that's a long-term goal. Right, we can work on the. There's going to be steps. We've got to work through all these steps.
Speaker 2:I had one child who they had been using pushing the dog's butt down so many times that if they tried to put their hand past the shoulder, the dog would growl at them. So I want my dog to roll over, but I can't bring the treat up around their shoulder to do that. So then we have to work on rebuilding that relationship. She doesn't trust me, you know. And just talking about why doesn't she trust me, and just you know. It's okay, I don't, you know, I'm just here to help. I don't care what you did, that's all in the past. We're just here to move forward. And so they'll tell me, yeah, I probably did push her down. So so they'll tell me, yeah, I probably did push her down. So what are we going to do to fix that? How are we going?
Speaker 2:to help her understand that she can trust you when you put your hand back there. So that's kind of where I start is kind of what do you want to work on? It's always going to be based around body language, but then, what do you want to work on?
Speaker 1:no-transcript and in that regard can we talk about what people do that impact their dog's behavior in terms of their own emotions? So we've talked about some of the more obvious things, like somebody getting frustrated or impulsive and yanking on the leash, or the child pushing the dog's butt down. Those kinds of things are really for us as trainers and consultants, seeing that as very obvious interactions with the dog that are going to impact the behavior. But let's dig into some of the more subtle things. You know there's been some recent research even about dogs, like looking at facial expressions and knowing the emotions, and how much of those things on sort of not an obvious level are impacting the dog's behavior.
Speaker 1:And then we can also look at the other side of the coin to how the dog impacts a human's behavior. But let's start with how much the humans, especially in these cases where you know it's a sensitive topic, because we can't say, oh, because of your challenges, this is why your dog's that way. But we also sometimes do have to bring that to light because it can be impacting the dog's behavior in some way. So what are some things you've seen, or your experiences in that regard, or the subtleties, or the emotions?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, one of them is you may think in the home that we have the client Right working through. Let's say, we have a dog who's leash reactive. What do we need to do? We need to do? Find it, we need to call them away, we need to avoid that, trigger things like that. But then, as a dog trainer, oftentimes here's your homework and then we walk away and we come back and they've not progressed and we feel that it's well, they're not complying and sometimes it's a matter of they can do it in the home and they can do it in some situations. But then, maybe on a particularly bad day, they go out and they see somebody coming and they shut down and they don't know They've forgotten everything. So they just the first time I saw it I'm like you're just standing there letting it happen. I know you know how to do this, do it, but she was just frozen, she couldn't. And then, after the dog barked and lunged and I helped calm the dog down, then we kind of come back into ourselves and it's like you know, you're a bad dog, you shouldn't have done that, you know. And so for those clients we have a conversation of what do you think you're going to be able to do in the moment. Do you think you're going to be able to do what I'm trying to teach you? And if you can't, then we need to come up with something different. So can we somehow make a you know he's already got a harness Can we get some material with stop signs on it and cut that stop sign out and sew it onto the harness and have it be kind of those kind of signs of? This is a nervous dog. This is a reactive dog. If you see a person from a block away, are you okay to cross the street right, so that we're not even going to use those skills until you have worked through your own social anxiety? So some of it is just recognizing that right now I can't do this. So what management things can we do in the meantime? Continue to work on the skills in the home so that when they're ready they can do them. The dog already knows them, they already know them and they can take them on the road. But while they're working on their own anxiety and stuff with their human therapist what can we manage with the dog in the meantime? Anxiety and stuff with their human therapist what can we manage with the dog. In the meantime.
Speaker 2:We do a lot of that kind of recognizing that a lot of these kids are in or come from abusive situations. Sometimes they come from and we all did, we all came from parents and grandparents who used compulsion and yelling at the dog and that kind of thing to get something done. And the kids just see it as this is how I do it, so that's why I approach it with no hands on the dog, can't touch the dog, so a lot of that kind of stuff is just kind of how do you feel when you're in your bedroom and your little brother comes in and starts bugging you? Does that make you angry? Do you yell at them? Mom, come and get them out of my room.
Speaker 2:Your dog's crate is like their bedroom. How do you think they feel when they're in there resting doing their own thing and you come in and get right in their face? Because you saw on TikTok what happens when you blow in your dog's face. What happens when you bark in your dog's face? What happens? Why bark in your dog's face? What happens? You know, why is the dog doing that? And they're like oh, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:I can see that.
Speaker 2:And so then maybe we'll make a draw a sign. They can draw a sign of you know Max's room and decorate it, and then we tape the sign to the crate and so it's kind of a visible reminder of I don't go in there Kind. And so it's kind of a visible reminder of I don't go in there, kind of recognizing that, yeah, what I am doing is causing that issue With the child that had the dog that we couldn't touch the behind. We also noticed that the way that the two boys played with each other because they both had ADHD, both on the autism spectrum, and they were both boys and so they were playing boys and they were just loud and obnoxious and it was affecting the dog.
Speaker 2:When mom would come in the house, dog would run and greet her at the door, loved her, come and greet her at the door. Kids come in the house. They are yelling at each other. When they get out of the car, they're banging into the house, they're throwing their backpacks down, the dog runs and hides and so what do you think the difference is? What can we do? And so I came up with a Mission Impossible game with them. I'm going to challenge you. Can you get into the house, put your stuff down, all without causing the dog to leave the kitchen.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:You know, and when are you going to start it? Are you going to start it when you come into the kitchen? Because if you were yelling out in the car or in the driveway, is the dog even in the kitchen when you come in anymore? Probably not. She's already gone and hid. So we have to start out, you know. We have to back it up. We have to start it in the car. Okay, we're on Mission Impossible, we get out of the car, we don't slam the doors, we don't start screaming, you know, and so that kind of how can we just help them see the direct impacts of what they're doing?
Speaker 1:Amazing. I love that game that you made it like something that probably would be very interesting to a couple of boys like that, yeah, to a 10 and 12 year old boy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're into that.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. That a couple of boys like that To a 10 and 12 year old boy yeah, they're into that. That's amazing. That's amazing. So, all right, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back.
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Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Kerry Orr and we were talking about a lot of really unique topics for this show, because we don't always get into the human side, and I want to dig a little bit further into sort of what we were talking about. But going to the challenging aspects of when we have a dog with aggression issues that may be directing it towards family members or towards the person that's experiencing these challenges family members or towards the? You know the person that's experiencing these challenges. How much do you find that's impacting things and when do you need to take a step back and say is this the right fit, is this? You know, how do we get over this huge hill that we see in front of us, sometimes because of the impact on the relationship? So, of course, we talked about what the humans can do that impact the dog's behavior. But sometimes you go in, you're working as a team, but the dog is really presenting some huge hills to climb over for the client, or maybe even something that the dog is aggressing towards any severe aggression cases.
Speaker 2:Knock on wood, thank goodness. So far I have worked with some resource guarding cases. I've worked with some definitely growling and snapping when that person comes around. So really taking it back to that body language of why is the dog doing that and does the dog do it with other people and so how did they approach the dog? That's different than what you're doing and just really kind of again reflecting that lens through the dog to them and kind of back and forth of what is causing this. If you are walking towards the dog and the dog is kind of cowering away from you, what do you see there? And just practicing it all the time. You know, practicing, what am I going to do when this happens? What am I going to do when this happens? And also really building a lot of.
Speaker 2:We do a lot of playing with the dogs Through play, helping them build more trust with one another. So things like I'll bring Cavaletti poles and stuff and, like I said, talking about setting the high and low, just getting to the point where I don't need to say anymore what do we need to do to help the dog succeed, help him feel confident in doing this? Or just a quick reminder of oh, he's not wanting to jump over that right now. What did we change? What do we need to do a little bit different and just really trying to reframe their relationship with the dog of play having fun versus the. I'm angry with the dog because when I try to give him treats he bites my hand, or when I try to get in his crate he growls at me or he barks at me or whatever. And just really trying to reframe it as how is the dog feeling? Again, maybe anthropomorphizing more than I should Granted, I wouldn't do that with an adult client but letting helping them see what, if this was your friend, do you think that they would come back and play tomorrow? Probably not, friend. Do you think that they would come back and play tomorrow? Probably not. So what do you do different with your friend that you don't do with the dog? So what could we do with the dog to help that out?
Speaker 2:So really kind of self-reflecting, back to the relationship of where did it go wrong, what is wrong and how to build that really through fun things and really building a lot of self-confidence in the client as well, you know, because a lot of them are just oh my gosh, and so with the kids that I work with, we save the last 10 minutes, usually with sessions of let's call the family and show them what you've been working on and I mean, just look what I can do. You know, I got the dog to sit and wait. I got the dog to jump over a pole. I got the dog to because a lot of them are like you're never going to get this dog to go through a tunnel. I'll bring a tunnel. And they're like, yeah, that's not happening. And when the dog goes through the tunnel, the parent is more excited than the kid is almost. Oh, my God, I can't believe you got to do that.
Speaker 2:So it really that's kind of the approach I take is what is broken and how can we build it with play and fun?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I always state that all the time is that play is counter to you know, you can't be fearful of something and play at the same time or angry at something and play at the same time.
Speaker 1:So it's a great way. It's not only a great way to repair things, but a great barometer to say are both parties actually okay with each other enough to play right? And what about the cases where there's serious concern? So you step into a case and you're concerned about safety. It's just you know it's not going to be a good fit, or there's so many challenges that you suspect it's going to result in a very poor quality of life for either the child or the adult or the dog. What have you done in those cases, or how do you approach that conversation?
Speaker 2:You know and I've had it in a couple of different instances the fact that we can have an emotional support dog and that we, the general public, doesn't really understand what that means. They see it as just go get a dog. Go get a dog. Any dog, any dog will do. Go get your favorite brand of dog and bring it into the house. I will sign the paperwork. They can't kick you out of your apartment. Now you've got this dog.
Speaker 2:Well, what if that dog happened to be a working lines German shepherd? That its thing is jumping into people's faces and grabbing clothes and barking at people? And now this dog that was supposed to bring you comfort has your landlord putting eviction notices on your door. How are we going to fix that? So part of it is sometimes I can't help that one person, but I can bring knowledge and understanding because I'm on teams. I can bring it to the therapist on my team and they can bring to the therapist that they work with and I can say can I come talk to the social workers as a whole when you have your monthly meeting? And I have on my signature for all of my work with these clients. I've got a free body language webinar link on there Learn about body language. I will talk to the service facilitator and say I had one person that I was going to work with and decided I don't think I'm going to be safe doing that.
Speaker 2:This was a pit bull. That was a single mother with a child that had autism spectrum disorder and she had some substance abuse history and her own mental health challenges and what she wanted was a dog. That would. You know the typical person who comes forward and says I want a protection dog, but I want them to know who to bark at and who not to bark at. And we have to say the dog can't learn that. So that was what she wanted. She wanted the dog who would go after the person who was meant something bad towards her child and not bother anyone else, and she had started sicking the dog on people that were cutting through her yard. That shouldn't have been to the point where, when the child was laughing happily in a high-pitched voice, the dog was going into attack mode.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And attacking. One instance was on a swing set. The dog was in a dog park with a six-foot chain link fence and the child was outside swinging and was screaming and laughing and the dog scaled the fence and attacked the swing. And the dog scaled the fence and attacked the swing. At that point I was. I'm not going to do this because if that child screams in the home I'm going to be the one they go after because I'm not the safe person. So if we can't guarantee that you're going to have that dog tethered or with a muzzle, then we can't do it. But then I do contact the service facilitators and I do talk to the team and let them know that there are issues with this dog.
Speaker 2:This dog has bitten people and when I've gone into the home you know maybe a different dog that was fearful I can see this dog is terrified of people coming in the door but nobody's recognizing it. You know, the first time I met another pit bull is huge. Ted was this big. Took me three months to make great friends with this dog but he was fabulous. After I made friends with him, but the first time I met him I could tell he was terrified and the service facilitator didn't recognize that, the family didn't recognize that, the client didn't recognize that, and I was thinking, oh, I'd really like to put that dog in a different room and they're like well, he just needs to warm up to you.
Speaker 2:Well, the second time I met with this client, this particular one had difficulties putting leashes and collars where they could easily find them, and so I was standing outside waiting for them to come out for our session and the dog came flying out the door, no collar, no leash and muzzle, punched me in the groin and big enough that it left a pretty big bruise. I said to him you know, if he had had his mouth open, you know it would have been a whole different story. But they weren't recognizing that it's the other person's fault. They're leaning over his face and that kind of thing. So it's so much of it is educating of what does the body language look like?
Speaker 2:When is it safe, when is it not safe? I know that someone leaning over him. When you say don't lean over him, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, because at this point they've bit somebody in the face, it doesn't matter whose fault it is anymore. And so really drawing a line of you know, if we can't consistently put the muzzle where the dog isn't going to chew it up, or work with the muzzle once a day in between sessions, we just can't continue working and it becomes really a point of when the client is in a mind space where they're able to, you know, come forward and say, okay, I'm ready to, ready to do this now, and kind of has to be their decision of I'm.
Speaker 2:You know, I realize now I'm not ready to do this yeah I have mentioned to care caregivers and stuff that you know we probably need to look at this. But in the end it's just like with dog training. I can say I'm not comfortable working with a dog anymore unless we do this, this and this, but I can't say you have to blah, blah, blah. So in the end it becomes usually in that instance I kind of share my concerns with the team and with the client and their caregivers and then I have to say I can't do anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and walk away, kind of like we have to do in just standard aggressive dog training.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's important. We all have the option to walk away, whether it's the client from the dog. In some situations we have to give them that permission. The professional working with the case also should have that. Unfortunately, the dogs don't always have the option to just decide they need to walk away. Always have the option to just decide they need to walk away. So you must have had some cases where there's an attachment but you're worried about safety as well. So let's say it's a parent that's like oh, we've got this, as you had mentioned, they want, like this, quote unquote emotional support animal for their child. But then the child that you walk in. You're like, ooh, this is a potential bite risk to the child and maybe nobody's recognizing that. But maybe the child is doing things to intensify that potential Nobody's recognizing. So what do you do in those cases? That's got to be incredibly challenging to navigate that conversation. Be like listen, I'm worried about your child's safety and the parent's like, no, no, this is the therapy dog. Can't you see them getting along?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it it's like no, no, this is the therapy dog. Can't you see them getting along? Yeah, it's educating the, the caregiver, on body language, what the dog is saying, educating the client themselves on what is the dog saying and really working with. What are all the fun things we can do with this dog that don't involve getting in their face, touching them, grabbing, grabbing them, all this kind of thing? So I try to open the window to what are all the things that we can do that are fun games that don't involve touching.
Speaker 1:What if you are at a point where you're not even saying well, I'm not even gonna recommend that because it's not safe for that interaction to happen Like? I've had a couple cases like that where it's chilling, it's really chilling.
Speaker 1:You see, the dog is like. This dog does not want to be near this child and in fact I suspect if we do. You know so I've been in one where the dog was crated and the dog was just hard staring the children. It was the first introduction. Fortunately they didn't introduce the dog to a child. That was a scary case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you have to sometimes break that news. But there was fortunately no relationship. But you might have cases where you're like I'm not going to recommend play. I'll teach them about body language so that they can start to recognize things. Do you ever get yelled at or pushback?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do. And then at that point what really works on my side because I work with a team is I can go to the team with it, or I can go directly to the service facilitator and say, hey, this is what I see, what can we do? Because they have a little more push with the client, because they can say we can't continue services if it's not safe. Right, if the dog in your home is not safe with your child or with someone else coming into the home, we can't have any services. And so there have been cases where they have rehomed a dog or something like that.
Speaker 2:But for me I have a backup that I can talk to and say hey, I'm seeing this, they're giving me pushback. Can you help out? Or I'll bring it up at the team meeting. We're struggling with this right now meeting. You know we're struggling with this right now. So how can we help with that? How can we remind the parents that the dog needs to be behind a gate until we've worked through some of this? And so those clients that have a lot of providers coming into their home can help kind of back me up and say why isn't the dog behind the gate, and that kind of thing. But again, in the end it's one of those cases where I can say I'm worried for the child and let the service facilitator know, and then they can go down the route of talking to their supervisor and moving into child protective services or anything like that. So it takes a lot of the weight off of me because I reported to somebody else and then they go up the line.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I always recommend to the trainers that may not have the same network as you to at least familiarize yourself with what to do and finding the right resources, the appropriate resources, I should say. So let's spend some time talking about what we're doing to help the unique cases that you're taking. Let's say we have for the animal pros listening in. They want to know how to adapt their consulting skills to a particular condition that the client might be experiencing, whether it's post-traumatic stress or ADHD. Can you talk more generally about how you adapt and what you would recommend for trainers wanting to learn more about this too?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think a lot of it is asking questions and listening and watching the interaction between the person and the dog and learning everything you can. So if you find out you have a client with ADHD, go out there and learn everything you can about ADHD and what we're doing to help the human side of it. So then we can kind of extend that to the dog. So things like when we're working with someone with depression or anxiety, I can't have a, you have to cancel 24 hours ahead or whatever I have to adapt that to. I'm going to text you in the morning and say confirm, are you okay to meet today? Because sometimes they're not. Sometimes the day before we've had a team meeting and they're like I can't wait for our session tomorrow. And then I text them the next morning. They're like I can't do it today and if I don't hear from you I'm not going to call, I'm not going to bother you, because I know you may be having a hard day. If I don't hear from you within about, depending on how far I am with you an hour to a half hour ahead of time I'm just going to assume we're not going to meet today, and so that is one thing that I think we all kind of, because we're used to saying this person is coming to me, they're paying for services, therefore they need to cancel within 24 hours, or I'm going to charge them anyway. But now we're working with someone who is in a space where maybe 24 hours ago I was fine, but this morning I'm not anymore, and so that, I think, is a big thing. I think another thing is thinking about what their sensitivities are, because another thing that we have is kind of sensitivities to smells and to tactile sensitivities. And so me, as a dog trainer, I will say well, if it's not going to work for a piece of kibble, use hot dog, or use cheese, or use a stinky treat whatever works, use it. But what if that texture of a hot dog is just completely off-putting and I can't do that? Or what if I don't like the feel of the dog's teeth scraping on my fingers as they take it out of my hand? I don't like them licking my hand. So now, what are we going to do? And so, with those clients, I will do you want to wear gloves? You can wear your own gloves, I will bring gloves. We will take breaks for them to go wash their hands.
Speaker 2:Sometimes in the middle of session they'll say this smells bothering me, so we'll switch to a different treat. Maybe last week it was cheese, this week it's a salmon treat. Some of them are like you know, this smells like beef jerky, right, you know. I'll say, well, I bet it doesn't taste that way. And they'll say will you ever have tried it? And I'll say no, and so we'll each take a little bite of a dog treat. You know just those different things that you're just kind of. I never thought of it that way.
Speaker 2:Sometimes in the middle of the session they'll say can you start doing it? Or we toss the treat instead of handing it to the dog, or they'll use I've got a PVC tube that I keep around for dogs that bite on the leash, you know, to thread it over the leash. What is this? And I'll tell them what it's for. Oh, you know, we could use this to drop treats through, and so then it becomes their habit of. I didn't like the dog touching my hand anyway, so now I've got a tool I can drop that treat through there, and so really kind of, if the person is not complying or you feel like you've broken it down to a point where anybody can do that and it's super simple to really listen for and ask the questions of why isn't it happening? Is it the smell of the treats? Is it, you know? Because Anna Marie Barcelos, who works with Daniel Miller or Daniel Mills, excuse me on some papers, I think she's in Brazil has done some papers on.
Speaker 2:We always look at adding a dog to the home is always a positive influence. It's wonderful. She looks at it from both spectrums. If that animal develops a behavior problem now it's negatively impacting that person's mental health. So she has a really neat valence quadrant thing that she set up with the high and low valence and the low and high arousal and then she puts in dog things like petting the dog, interacting with the dog, and what you see when you look at that quadrant thing is petting the dog falls both in low valence and high valence. And if it's in low valence, sometimes petting the dog is what takes the relationship with the person from low to high valence. Petting the dog's ears may be fabulous. Petting the dog's tail? Don't want to do that. Having the dog touch their nose on me can't deal with that. But me touching the dog's nose when I want to is great, and so it's really interesting how you have to really come down to why aren't they just using hot dogs, like I told them to do?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know. So that kind of thing and breaking it down with the kids with different things is what could we do to help that relationship. So I had a dog that was kind of thing, and breaking it down with the kids with different things is what could we do to help that relationship. So I had a dog that was kind of fearful. So I set up a little free work course from Sarah Fisher's Ace Free Work and we set it up on like an eight by 10 rug in the basement and the dog was doing it.
Speaker 2:The client came in and kind of walked by and plunked down on a chair kind of hard, kind of sat down hard and the dog jumped and kind of rushed away and then she came back and I you know why do you think she did that? And then we got to talking about well, what kind of toys do you play with that the dog might be afraid of? Well, it turns out they play Nerf guns and sometimes when they're shooting each other they also shoot the dog. What can we do with free work on this eight by 10 carpet that is going to keep the dog on the carpet? So can you put your Nerf gun down and add some treats and then, in the middle of this session, walk over, pick up the Nerf gun and set it back down in a manner that isn't going to cause this dog to run away, and so kind of looking at what is the relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so much of it is just off the cuff. Oh well, that's weird. Let's, let's work on that. You know, just really watching the client. When is the client done? I can tell with some of my clients. They start making silly noises, they start wanting to roll around on the floor more and wrestle with the dog versus playing. So then that cues to me we've got to take a break, we've got to do something different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we keep going back to this theme of really understanding. You know, once there's understanding and that's really kind of the next level of behavior consulting right, Getting really good consulting skills is to notice those little cues you're talking about, Like somebody saying, can you do it first, and most of us sometimes sure we'll do it, but if we don't recognize that's their way of saying, you know, I actually don't want to do what you're telling me to do right now, like touching those hot dogs or something. And then if we do recognize that, I find the clients are like wow, Mike gets me, or like he's understanding this. Or Carrie's like oh they, they recognizing that I'm a little uncomfortable with this.
Speaker 1:So that builds, you're showing understanding and empathy as well as awareness of you know what they might be having challenges with, and that builds trust, Right. So yeah, and next level stuff we can do as trainers and consultants that we don't often talk about or think about.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and sometimes, just like our other clients, we say is this going to work for you? Yeah, and they say, oh, yeah, sure, I can do that, yeah. But then when it comes down to actually doing that hot dog, it's like, oh no, I thought I could, but there's no way I'm going to be able to do this. Yeah. And then they're sometimes afraid to say why they didn't do it. And so it's up to me to say, when they're asking me to hand the dog the treats today, that tells me I'm working with the treat they don't want to work with, right. And so I'll say well, what if we used I've got some cheese treats in there? What if we use these ones? And I'll carry different treats in my bag and say you know, you know which one do you want to work with today? Or sometimes they'll go I'll say does the smell of their dog food bother you? And you know okay, well, go get a cup of dog food, let's use that today, you know. So it's really observing rather than kind of and I don't want to say calling them out on the carpet, but kind of forcing them into the spotlight, of saying, because a lot of times, sometimes the caregivers will say well, it usually comes to when, the couple times it happens it's been when the kids have transferred from, like, grade school to middle school and there's that huge transition. They're just feeling like right now I can't continue working with the dog, but I don't want to tell Carrie that because I don't want to make her feel bad, and so the caregiver will tell me that. And so then I suggest, you know what, if we just took a break and let you get settled in with school? And so it's kind of how can I make a suggestion of changing something that I can tell is bothering them, without turning the camera on them and saying you need to tell me what's happening, because they get that so much, and even asking questions like for mindfulness.
Speaker 2:You know, everybody wants to do mindfulness with them and everybody is teaching them deep breathing and I get kids who tell me I hate deep breathing. Everybody makes me do that. And so for mindfulness, we'll again work through the dog. We'll close our eyes or lay down on the floor and just okay, what do we hear? What do we smell? What else do you think your dog is hearing? That? We can't hear this. You know, if we sit down and be really quiet. We can hear the train way off. How far away do you think the train was when the dog could hear it?
Speaker 2:And just that kind of thing. Or let's just lay on the floor and let's just see if the dog will lay down next to us. I take the mindfulness kind of down a different route because a lot of those kids are telling me I Mindfulness kind of down a different route because a lot of those kids are telling me I don't want to do deep breathing.
Speaker 1:Everybody tells me to do deep breathing, and it doesn't work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's really a matter of for us as behaviorists and dog trainers. Working with any of our clients is really learning a lot of that, and Tag Teach has a great class on human body language and really learning what their body language is telling us about what they're not vocally telling us, and we do it with dogs. We've learned to do it with dogs so we can do it with human clients too.
Speaker 1:I want to jump into that topic a little bit more, and also things like recognizing emotional dysregulation, right. But before we get into that, just side question on as trainers we often talk about, you know we can't be saying things like your dog needs Prozac, because then we'd be practicing veterinary medicine, or your dog should eat this particular diet, because unless we're veterinary nutritionists or we have that degree or expertise, we could be breaking some ethical boundaries there. So, given your work with human health professionals, mental health professionals, do you ever get into those conversations about? Okay, carrie, you know you're learning about this stuff. So and I think it's important, I think that's one of the best pieces of advice you can give is like go learn about these conditions.
Speaker 1:So you have an understanding. You can know what to look for and be empathetic. But when does it get into that gray area of saying, okay, we're going to now be potentially practicing therapy or human therapy with our clients. How does that work for you?
Speaker 2:You know, coming from the dog training world and working with youth or the aggression and dog stuff and going to the great big dog aggression workshop and hearing Chris Pockle speak of we all have to stay in our lane. I am so much a stay in your lane person but then I got into this and I am not seen as just the dog trainer. They are asking for input, like can you ask them about this? They're not meshing with their therapist and they're not talking to their therapist, but they seem to be connecting with you. How can you approach it? How can you get them to open up about this? Because I'm very clear anytime I say we're having trouble at school or this and that and the other. If I think of something like the taking a break when the child needs it, not when we have it scheduled, I am very clear when I come up with a suggestion of saying I am a dog trainer, I am not a therapist. But when I work with dogs who are struggling, this is how we approach it and is this something that maybe would work with this person? I've never had somebody say you're trying to be a therapist. I am having people say if you are willing to help this client with the welfare of the dog, do it because they're not going to be able to get it anywhere else. Many of these clients are low income. How can we get this dog spayed? A whole line of the things I do is just dog welfare. If I have a client who is living in an apartment, they don't have a car and they have to walk to the grocery store, take the bus, they're buying a five pound bag of the cheapest dog food they can find in the grocery store because, number one, they can't get to PetSmart or wherever, and number two, they can't carry a 30 pound bag of dog food on the bus, smart or wherever. And number two, they can't carry a 30 pound peg of dog food on the bus. And so I've worked with them on. You're feeding the equivalent of Alpo or whatever I don't want to call anybody out, but the equivalent of a not good, mainly corn-based dog food, let's say, and you're paying a lot for it in the grocery store. What do you think you could afford per month for dog food? And let's look on Chewy. Or let's look at here we have Farm and Fleet, which is like a tractor supply or a Menards, which is kind of similar and can we look on there to find a better quality dog food at that price where they will actually deliver it to you on a monthly basis?
Speaker 2:I have quote unquote diagnosed your dog needs to see a vet. Right, I'm seeing a runny nose, I'm seeing a cough, I'm seeing a limp. They do need to see a vet. Or your dog is not getting its shots. You can afford to go and pay the $15 for the low cost rabies shot, but you can't afford the lepto parvo. Whatever I can buy that. You can go to Farm and Fleet and buy that, because in Wisconsin you can give your own shots. You can go and buy that for $7.99, and I will give it to your dog for you, which is essentially crossing a line In this state. It's legal to do, but that dog would not be getting that care otherwise.
Speaker 2:They're just not. I've worked with five-year-old dogs who've never seen a vet. Never seen a vet for anything. I will help them do grooming, I will help them cut out mats, I will help them clip nails, anything that is kind of considered for the welfare of the dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really great distinction you're making, because when we're looking at from a team framework, we're really also asking the client. You know, help me understand what you're making, because when we're looking at from a team framework, we're really also asking the client. You know, help me understand what you're going through, help me understand your condition, educate me about you know what your needs are, and so we're not coming in there and diagnosing. You've got this and you need to do this for X, y or Z. I'm here to help and you give me the information and we'll work as a team, maybe with the, a human mental health professional, and so, yeah, I, I love that distinction yeah, and I'm always given a set of goals.
Speaker 2:Right, I'm given a set of goals of help with better social cuing or um, creating empathy or impulse control, or you know I'm always getting. This is a set of goals we're working for you. Do you with the dog and how you can work towards those goals? Make progress towards those goals and working with the dog and how you can work towards those goals. Make progress towards those goals and working with the client through their dog. And if it becomes a matter of well, they're not talking to me, so will they talk to you?
Speaker 2:I actually went and got certified as a pet loss bereavement specialist through Pet Loss Partners so that I could talk to kids about pet grief, because we're seeing behaviors in school due to the fact that they've lost a pet in the home. They won't talk to their therapist about it. They won't talk to their clients about it, but they connect with me because I love their dog too. Yeah, so I will have follow-up. You know, building memory boxes and talking through that kind of starting them along the path of grief, that's considered therapy in my mind, but they won't talk to anybody else about it. And so my team is saying, carrie, if they will talk to you, do it, because if they will start opening up to you, then they'll start opening up to other people. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's shift now to what we were talking about earlier, which is the emotional dysregulation you might recognize as trainers. We see it in dogs. We know things to do, like your dog needs a time out or a break. Let's do a treat scatter, let's do some enrichment, let's make sure your dog's getting enough sleep, let's talk to the vet about meds, like we have all of our typical things we do for dogs. But what about the people? So for the animal pros listening in right now, what are some tips you would give?
Speaker 1:You mentioned tact, teaching, learning to read body language of humans in the moment. So let's think about, like during a session, you're recognizing something you can see. You know the child checking out or doing other activities that you can see. They're done with the session, or it's something where it's maybe an adult. They're getting nervous and you see the anxiety on their face. And when they're out, we're about to do a leash reactivity session or something like that. So what are your tips there to recognize it? And then what are just a few different strategies you do in those moments?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes with and I work more with kids and adults in this program and it's talking to them about they'll be kind of getting a little more aroused and the dog is getting more aroused. Maybe the dog is starting to bite their hand and then I can tell that they're kind of getting. Ooh, I don't like that. And so I'll say you know, is he grabbing your hand a little bit more? Why do you think he's doing that? Let's try doing this and we'll do a scatter or we'll change the activity up all together. Or you know, if I kind of see that they're totally done with the session with some of the kids, I've got like a activity that I pull out that they love doing, but we don't do it every single week because otherwise we would just be doing it. That's all we'd be doing. And so, for example, I have one client who, when he starts to, I'm done and he's, I can tell he's he is instigating rough play with the dogs and kind of getting those dogs aroused and stuff. So I can tell he's escalating because he's trying to get the dogs to escalate with him. And so I will say, oh, you know what I brought? My spinner toy. And my spinner toy is a Kong wobbler and the way he does it is he does and maybe not proper to say, but he does more of a spin the bottle kind of thing. He'll fill it with dog food and then he spins it and the food flies out and the dogs just do a treat scatter with it. He absolutely loves doing that. Just do a treat scatter with it. He absolutely loves doing that and it calms him down and it's a really good way to kind of bring him back down, bringing him back into himself.
Speaker 2:And we laugh about the dogs. You know they're getting that one, they're not finding that one, and that's a really positive way to leave the session. Sometimes I'll end the sessions early and say you know, my sessions are anywhere, generally between 30 minutes and an hour, but you know, sometimes we'll go 15 minutes and it's you know, we're just gonna play with the dog today. Or I will be perfectly honest, I have had a session where the client was not ready to work with the dog but wanted to talk. So we talked about dogs. Where did the word hound come from, you know? And just I bring along books on dog breeds and we will look up their dog. What was your dog created to do and we'll talk about that and just anything that I can see them kind of becoming dysregulated, that I can bring them back in before they go over threshold and then end the session and leave it there.
Speaker 1:Amazing, amazing Good advice. And, carrie, thank you so much for all of this information and for chatting. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about what you do?
Speaker 2:So my business is called Crimson Hound so they can find me at crimsonhoundcom. I'm on Facebook and Instagram Crimson Hound Training. I do have a support group for reactive dog owners through Crimson Hound and we do once a month kind of free group sessions to kind of chat about things. Anybody's free to join that Facebook group With my grief support. I've got Pause and Remember. So I have a grief support group on Facebook and I do individual sessions online and I also do free group support sessions with that as well. So fantastic.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, carrie, and I hope to chat with you again in the future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks so much for having me and letting me bring this kind of awareness forward me bring this kind of awareness forward.
Speaker 1:It was truly a pleasure to speak with Carrie and explore how the human canine relationship is shaped by emotional understanding, trust and individualized care. Her insights remind us that successful training often starts with empathy for both ends of the leash. And if you're ready to go deeper into understanding and helping dogs with aggression, visit aggressivedogcom. Whether you're a professional or dedicated dog guardian, you'll find everything from the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program of its kind, to expert-led webinars, informative articles and the Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from September 26th to 28th 2025 in Charlotte, north Carolina, with both in-person and virtual options. And don't forget to check out our Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes, which are solo shows where I walk you through real-world strategies for issues like resource guarding, fear-based aggression, territorial behavior and more. Just hit, subscribe or head to the show notes for more info. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends. You.