The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Your Dog Bit Someone—Now What Happens? With Attorney Heidi Meinzer
The unpredictable nature of dog bites creates a legal labyrinth that can overwhelm even the most responsible owners and professionals. Attorney and dog trainer Heidi Meinzer pulls back the curtain on what really happens when teeth meet skin, revealing critical insights that could save your dog's life and protect your financial future.
From the moment a bite occurs, you're facing a cascade of legal consequences few people truly understand. Animal control's immediate focus on rabies verification is just the beginning. The parallel tracks of dangerous dog proceedings and potential civil liability cases unfold with dramatically different timelines, procedures, and outcomes depending on your jurisdiction. Meinzer expertly guides us through the stark differences between states like Virginia, where a court must deem a dog dangerous, and Maryland, where animal control makes this determination subject to appeal.
The financial stakes have never been higher. With average dog bite settlements skyrocketing from $18,000 to over $54,000 in recent years, insurance companies often choose to settle quickly rather than fight—even in questionable cases. For professionals working with dogs, Meinzer outlines three essential protective layers: forming a separate business entity, securing appropriate insurance from providers who understand the industry, and implementing comprehensive contracts that clearly define responsibilities and limitations.
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In this episode, I sit down with attorney and dog trainer Heidi Meinzer to explore the legal landscape surrounding dog bites and dangerous dog laws. We dive into what really happens after a bite incident, how jurisdictions define dangerous versus vicious dogs, and what trainers, shelters and guardians need to know about their responsibilities and protections, and what trainers, shelters and guardians need to know about their responsibilities and protections. Heidi also shares her perspective on the growing financial liability in dog bite cases and the steps we can take to reduce risk and advocate effectively for both dogs and their people. Heidi is an attorney and dog trainer based in Alexandria, virginia, specializing in animal law and small business non-profit law. She began her legal career as a public defender and later transitioned to civil litigation before opening her own practice focused on animal-related issues. Heidi serves on the boards of the Virginia Federation of Humane Societies and the Association of Professional Dog Trainers International, and she enjoys canine nose work with her dogs, sophie and Boomer.
Speaker 1:Before we jump into today's episode, a quick heads up If you're looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, head on over to AggressiveDogcom, because we've got something for everyone. For pet pros, there's the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available on aggression, packed with expert insights and CEUs For dog guardians. Check out Real Life Solutions, a practical course for everyday challenges like leash reactivity and dog-to-dog aggression. And if you want full access to expert webinars, live mentor sessions and exclusive discounts, the Ultimate Access Membership is just $29.95 a month. You'll also find info on the 2025 Aggression and Dogs Conference happening in Charlotte this September.
Speaker 1:That's all at AggressiveDogcom. Check it out after the show. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. This week, we're talking about how to keep ourselves out of jail, as well as our dogs out of jail and keeping them out of trouble, because I've got Heidi Meinzer here and her specialty is she's a lawyer and she knows dogs, so I couldn't think of a perfect guest for this particular topic. So welcome to the show, heidi.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, Mike. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:So what area of law do you practice and kind of, what got you into what you're doing now?
Speaker 2:One of my main areas of law is animal law and small business nonprofit law as well, so I represent through my own law firm. I've been representing a lot of dog owners, shelters, rescues, dog walkers, trainers, doggy daycares you name it Because I'm a trainer as well. I especially love to do work with trainers and trainer contracts, helping them maybe be experts in a dangerous dog case, etc. How I got into it was actually pretty interesting. As a kid I thought maybe I wanted to be a zoologist or I didn't know what, you know what exactly, and it just didn't pan out.
Speaker 2:I went into the humanities, went into law school, was a public defender for six years or so, went into civil litigation and right around that time at that law firm I got a very shy, sweet German shepherd mix from a rescue and she brought me into contact with about every trainer in the Washington DC area where I am. I'm in Northern Virginia. Right around the same time those folks started having questions, legal questions, and one of the people called me one day about a dangerous dog case and I just realized oh my gosh, this is what I'm supposed to do. That moment really helped me focus my practice. I stayed with that firm for about seven years and then in 2013, I set up my own law firm and when I first opened, it did nothing but animal law and it was great, really really got to do a deep dive into all things animal, especially dog, with the law.
Speaker 1:And so your area? Did you see? You're kind of defending clients when their dogs bite as well as the other side, or were you concentrating on one side?
Speaker 2:I really concentrated on one side to do the plaintiff side of dog bites. A lot of attorneys do contingency rates and it's very hard to do that. You're either going to do almost all of that or none of it for it to pay off, and it's not really the side that drew me right. So I would often be on the side of the dog who bit and the owner, and usually in the dangerous dog world instead of the civil liability world, because usually there was some kind of insurance and some a law firm who typically works with the insurance company would be representing in the civil liability case and I might be helping, but there would be a separate dangerous dog case that would not be covered by insurance. So that would be primarily my piece of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've kind of been paying attention to the figures that come out. The Insurance Institute, I believe, releases the average dog bite lawsuit and when I started looking at them, even just six or seven years ago, it's around $18,000 or something like that, and correct me if I'm wrong here. And then the most recent statistics, I think it was around $54,000, and it's even gone up since then. So is that the trend you're seeing, as well as you're seeing just much more interest, so to speak, in the litigation around dog bites and the awareness that, hey, this could be sort of a way for people to kind of say all right, because I've heard of stories like people that go into yards and they purposely get bitten because of the potential for the lawsuit, the amounts that are happening. So are you seeing this trend and it's just much more the lawsuits, amounts going up and all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think the amount it's just much more. The lawsuits amounts going up and all that. Yeah, I mean I think the amount it's just. It's just the nature of our civil liability system. Here in America we have chosen what's called the American rule, where pretty much everybody pays their own attorney's fees and if a plaintiff brings a frivolous suit, a defendant usually doesn't have a way to collect those attorney's fees. Versus in England or other places, if it is a truly frivolous suit or a truly frivolous defense, you may be able to collect your fees.
Speaker 2:So when that happens, it's kind of you know, people are willing to gamble, right. And if you know, some insurance companies will just say, well, let me just get out of this, right, the damages aren't that much, I'm just going to pay off this claim and get out Right. And some insurance companies are known for being very not afraid to litigate. But if you litigate you're going to have fees involved in that. You're going to have positions and court hearings and motions and pleadings, and that's where I think that 18,000 or 50,000, I mean to even get to that point before trial you're spending that much money, right? It's not a pretty fact, I think, about our system. It's just not. It's not perfect, but that's what happens, unfortunately, with our system. So plaintiff's attorneys will file something that maybe doesn't have significant damages, because they know they might get 20,000 just to go away.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah yeah, and so that's just talking about the financial ramifications for dog bites. So let's get into some of the other things, because a lot of our listeners, of course, are either working with dog bite cases or their own dog has bitten. So what are the most common outcomes or ramifications of sort of bad stuff that can happen when a dog bites? Now, I know it's jurisdiction dependent, but you know, can you expand more on that?
Speaker 2:Sure. So if somebody calls me in a panic, going oh my gosh, my dog bit, what happens now? The very very first thing is you're almost certainly going to get a visit from animal control. Even if there ends up being no dangerous dog case, no civil liability case, there is a emergency right off the bat of making sure that dog had a rabies vaccination. That's the very first thing everybody's going to want to know. A rabies vaccination, that's the very first thing everybody's going to want to know. Because, as you know, there's no cure and whether it's dog on dog or especially when it's a dog on a human, especially if they're skin broken, at least each jurisdiction has that threshold of when they're going to put the dog into rabies quarantine. It's usually, you know, broken skin, obviously for a human. At that point they're going to have probably like a 10 day quarantine or so. You might be able to quarantine in your house, you might have to take the dog to a vet or the shelter to quarantine, but the animal cross is going to want to see that rabies vaccination certificate. So that's the very first thing I tell everybody cooperate, cooperate, cooperate. That is nothing you want to mess around with.
Speaker 2:And then my brain goes to the two civil things that can happen, right, the second thing being might there be a civil lawsuit for damages? And again, every jurisdiction is very, very different, especially on the dangerous dog side. Sometimes it's local, sometimes it's state. It can vary locality to locality Within a state. That can look very different. And then the civil liability. Oftentimes there's a statute of limitations of somewhere around two years could be more or less, depending on the state. So that civil liability thing won't necessarily kick in immediately. But some decisions that you make, you know, do I pay the medical expenses or other things? You know. You can have that in mind. You can think ahead as to how that might look in the dangerous dog case or the civil liability case, even though that proceeding may not pop up for another year or two.
Speaker 1:And then can animal control stipulate some things like your dog must be on a muzzle, or your dog has to be on lesion or containment. Is that also jurisdiction dependent?
Speaker 2:It is jurisdiction dependent. And some places during the quarantine obviously it can be very strict right. They do not want that dog to have any contact with any other animal or human during that quarantine. If you have the rabies certificate right there and they know that dog is vaccinated, there can be some loosening of that depending on the jurisdiction. But that can be some loosening of that depending on the jurisdiction but that can be very tight.
Speaker 2:Regarding the dangerous dog, let's say there's a dangerous dog proceeding. That can look very different from locality to locality. For instance, where I am, I'm in the Northern Virginia area, so I have DC, maryland very close by and then Virginia. In Maryland I'm going to get a little geeky with legal stuff here they're a home rule state so each locality can pretty much do what they want, absent their general assembly saying, hey, you cannot do X Y, z. So they each have.
Speaker 2:All the localities have their own dangerous dog ordinances and oftentimes in Maryland the animal control can deem the dog dangerous and then you have to go appeal it with an administrative hearing and I think ultimately in some or all of the jurisdictions you could get to a court too. In Virginia very different. In Virginia that dog is not dangerous until a court says that it is and they have to prove it up. That said, animal control does have the right to seize the dog pending trial. Oftentimes, in a case that's not too egregious, they may not choose to do that, but then they may give you some of those restrictions. We won't take the dog from you and put the dog in the shelter pending trial. But, pending trial, make sure you do X, y and Z, and that again can look different animal control agency from animal control agency about what they want to see pending trial, and that term, dangerous dog, is also sort of interchangeably used.
Speaker 1:I've seen vicious dog. There's one other one that I'm forgetting here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are the two I hear the most.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so they have different designations, but they all kind of mean the same in your experience, in terms of either the courts are placing that label or an animal control is giving that label to the dog.
Speaker 2:In Virginia and in other places it is quite different. So there's a if the dog gets in a first incident and bites a human or bites a dog or cat bad enough to ring the bell for dangerous dog, and they are deemed dangerous. After that, if the dog attacks again, then the dog is vicious. So that we have two very different levels in Virginia and it makes a huge difference because in Virginia if the dog is dangerous you can still keep the dog, with a lot of different conditions you have to meet. If the dog is deemed vicious, euthanasia is the only outcome. So it's in Virginia. It's quite different. Now other places again can. They may use them interchangeably or have a different system. There's also if the dog bites bad enough, you sometimes can go bump straight to vicious. If there's a life-threatening injury to a human, you may bump straight to vicious also.
Speaker 1:When they're putting stipulations in place. What are some of the more extreme cases you've seen? Because we tend to hear about, oh, your dog must be on leash and with a muzzle on or contained on your property. But I've seen cases where it's the dog must be contained only on property, in a kennel that's with a chain link fence on top and a concrete slab underneath so the dog can't dig out and like all of these really high level stipulations. Have you seen that in your area?
Speaker 2:In Virginia. Again, our statute is very specific. So if the dog is deemed dangerous, there are a list of conditions that have to be met and they're the typical ones you're talking about Muzzled while off the property, on leash while off the property. Must have a fence that people can't stick their fingers in. They'll give you some leniency based on if you already have a fence up, posted signs on the property warning about the dog. You have to be registered on our dangerous dog registry. I might be forgetting a couple other things, but those are the main things that have to happen. It's interesting. So that's for dangerous those things have to happen and there's not much more. The's for dangerous those things have to happen and there's not much more. The court can do. There's not really flexibility and, like I said with vicious, it's euthanasia. There's no other option.
Speaker 2:The interesting thing this is something I worked hard on in Virginia several years ago.
Speaker 2:I worked with one of our local delegates who carried a bill that allowed for what's called a deferred adjudication in a dangerous dog case.
Speaker 2:So if the facts show that the dog is dangerous, but the court believes there are conditions that could be met, for a year or two years, they will hold off on finding the dog dangerous and kind of put the dog and the owner on probation. And what's fascinating about that the way that we phrased that bill, which is now the law is that the court has total flexibility so it doesn't have to do all those things in the dangerous dog statute. The court can do whatever they see fit. So they could order training, behavior modification, behavior modification with a positive, reinforcement-based trainer who isn't going to use prong or choker shocker. You can do whatever creative things you want for that deferred adjudication. And the other thing I failed to mention with Dangerous Dog that is part of that and is often part of a deferred adjudication is restitution. If there are direct medical expenses for a human or veterinary expenses for a dog or a cat who's been bit, then the court can, and usually does, order restitution if those costs haven't been paid already.
Speaker 1:And that's separate from like a civil suit, correct?
Speaker 2:Correct. So it wouldn't preclude a civil suit because you can get other kinds of damages in a civil suit. Correct, Correct. So it wouldn't preclude a civil suit because you can get other kinds of damages in a civil suit pain and suffering and that kind of thing. The court will not order pain and suffering, or I missed a day of work or whatever. In the dangerous dog case it's just going to be, at least in Virginia, what was paid for medical expenses? What was paid for veterinary expenses?
Speaker 1:Okay, so we've been talking about the civil side of things. For ramifications, what about criminal cases? We're seeing more of that happening in the news across the country, I think, where somebody's, for instance, their dog has been labeled dangerous by the courts or by animal control and then the dog gets out again, the person's very careless or negligent and that person's charged criminally. So talk more about those cases.
Speaker 2:And that is the case in Virginia as well that if your dog is deemed dangerous and you're sloppy and you don't muzzle the dog, whatever you do, leave the gate open, the dog gets out and attacks again. Not only can that dog be deemed vicious and then euthanized if found vicious, you, the owner, can and probably will be charged criminally with a misdemeanor for failure to comply with the dangerous dog statute. So that definitely happens. And there are other code sections again, like that instance where the dog may really do something horrific to a human being if it's deemed intentional from the human or at least grossly negligent, without even having that dog having been dangerous beforehand. You could find yourself in the criminal realm that way as well find yourself in the criminal realm that way as well.
Speaker 1:What are some of the outcomes you've seen in these cases? Are you seeing long sentences being dished out, or is it more sort of slaps on the wrist when you're talking about these, and I'm sure there's a varying degree, but what have you seen?
Speaker 2:It really does vary. I mean, if the dog gets out and doesn't create that much mayhem, right, they may just bring you in on a criminal charge and just give you suspended jail time just to kind of make the point right and make it known that this is serious. Don't do this again. I've seen a case where a young lady got pretty severe injuries from a pack of dogs and there was some indication of the fact that those dogs might be problematic, were left well off of the property wandering, and the person didn't do much to get them back and that did involve some substantial jail time. So it really is fact specific. But you know the court just wants people to know hey, this is serious. And oftentimes I've seen the person charged criminally and the dog deemed vicious and euthanized and usually the court and animal control feel like that euthanasia is so emotionally taxing that they don't necessarily, unless there's big injuries or something else. Usually that's enough to make the point right.
Speaker 2:So, it just depends case by case, really yeah.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of the legalese here, so we also hear about the strict liability and one-bite rules, depending again on the jurisdiction. Can you walk us through that?
Speaker 2:There aren't that many, although Virginia is one of them. There aren't that many one-bite rule, one free-bite rule states left. Virginia is very, you know, common law based. We are hanging onto that one free bite rule. But even with that rule, if you knew that your dog had propensity to cause an injury, that may be enough, even if the dog hasn't actually bit. So a lot of people don't realize that the dog's barking and lunging and going crazy and going crazy. But they're like my dog didn't bite, but you still might be on notice enough of that dog's propensity to perhaps sting the bell with civil liability.
Speaker 2:But for the most part if you have a perfectly nice dog and know anything in particular that that dog would have any propensity to cause any injury and the dog bites in Virginia, you might not be civilly liable at all for the first bite. You know if the dog does something again, at that point you would be civilly liable. A lot of states have felt like you know, if you have a dog, everybody should know that it could be an issue. So we're just going to jump to strict liability, meaning if your dog bites first time only, you're still going to be liable because you have a dog and they have teeth and we all know that. So that is just a policy decision, state by state, about how they have wanted to handle it.
Speaker 1:Can you talk about the cases where it's somebody you know doing something to a dog? You know they're coming to sell something door to door and they intentionally provoke the dog? There's some where these lawsuits are happening so quickly and easily, meaning the insurance companies are like you know. It's better just to settle this, even if that person was like on the property harassing the dog, breaking into the home you know doing these things.
Speaker 1:We've seen some cases like that happen where it's like you know somebody's purposely doing something to provoke that dog bite and then they get paid off. Have you seen that too?
Speaker 2:Again, I think it's up to the insurance company. Some of them are more risk averse than others, right. But I think in that case there are so many legal concepts in the dangerous dog world and the civil liability world that a dog owner could invoke to say you assume the risk of coming onto this property or you were are contributorily negligent or comparatively negligent, just to geek out a little on the legalese. On that there are policy decisions for each state. Should we have comparative negligence or contributory negligence?
Speaker 2:Virginia is still hanging on to contributory negligence. That means if a plaintiff typically is just a little bit negligent, they lose. They lose, you know, on facts like intentionally provoking the dog or doing something stupid, right, you can talk about, you know, assumption of risk or contributory negligence and you can block a lawsuit completely. So an insurance company that's not that risk averse might choose to go forward with a case like that. If there's a video of it or something. Right, there's a ring video or who knows what, they may feel more comfortable trying that case For comparative negligence. Some states have said you know, it's not fair for a plaintiff who's 10% negligent to lose completely. We'll just shave 10% off of their award. So if they win $100,000, they're only going to get $90,000 if they were 10% negligent. So again, it's a policy decision for each state about what they want to do when a plaintiff should have known better.
Speaker 1:Evidence right, which a lot of people do, which is good. And so, speaking of kind of knowing things ahead of time, what about the beware of dog signs? Or you know, warning dog, you know those kind of signs. Does that make the homeowner sort of say yeah. I do have a problem dog, or is it? Hey, I could have a problem dog, so I'm letting you know. So I'm doing my diligence to let you know. How have you seen that play out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I personally say if it makes you and your dog more comfortable, do it Right. Because I think if you have those signs up, I think you do have a good argument to say you've assumed the risk or you know you were negligent. You're sticking your fingers in the fence Like what are you thinking Right? But if you didn't know at all that there was a dog on the premises? But if you knew full well, you know. I think it helps. I think in particular, not even the signs on the fences, but the leashes and collars and red bandanas. I tell people all the time, if it makes you more comfortable, do it, you know. And telling people don't pet my dog, go away, just advocating for your dog, 100%. I personally think it is worth it to do it and if, god forbid, something happens, you do have that ability to say you assumed the risk or you should have known better, and there are legal mechanisms to help you make that argument.
Speaker 1:So you think it's better to let the world know you could have a problem. So you're doing your diligence there versus trying to not give any indication that a dog bite can happen, which I think it's the ethical thing to do right. And, as you mentioned, we're advocating for our dogs, which is, you know, it's kind of we're stepping outside the legal aspect of what we're talking about, but absolutely with the work we do. All about that, right.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right and that reminds me too of what I tell people about should I pay the medical expenses?
Speaker 2:Should I pay the vet expenses?
Speaker 2:Again, I mean oftentimes it's a neighbor or a relative or you know what I mean and like the moral thing versus the legal thing In Virginia, one free bite rule you might not be liable, but it's often the right thing to do.
Speaker 2:And as an attorney walking in and representing an owner in a dangerous dog case, I would present it as this is somebody who's really responsible, like they took this on already and already took care of the expenses. Because they're responsible. I would want to show, hopefully, you know, your client already had the dog licensed, already had the dog vaccinated, already had you know. And I would show all these things to be able to say you know, this was a one-off event with somebody the dog who's otherwise hasn't, hopefully hasn't had any problems, and with an owner who understands their responsibilities and really took it on themselves to be responsible. So I often will tell people if it's very clear what those medical expenses and veterinary expenses were, ask for copies of the bills so that you're sure of what you're paying for, and they should be willing to share that with you and if you can afford to do so, go ahead and take care of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And so, speaking of right and wrong, let's talk about sometimes. We have rescues or even shelters. They have dogs with a bite history, and we've seen some of this locally here in Connecticut, but where dogs are being adopted out without disclosing the bite history and then that dog goes on to bite somebody. What are the ramifications for that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is what I tell rescues and shelters all the time Disclose, disclose, disclose. If you disclose and the person goes ahead and takes the dog with eyes wide open, and if you have good contracts that have waivers and limitations of liability, you know you've done your due diligence. If you don't disclose, that's when you're going to get in trouble. And again, it's also like you said, it's also the right thing to do, right.
Speaker 2:And in Virginia we have a law where it says flat out that rescues and shelters must ask about bite history when they take a dog in. However, they take that dog in, obviously stray, you won't know. But if it's an owner surrender, if you transfer in from another rescuer shelter, you have to ask about bite history. And then, however the dog goes out whether it is being given back to the owner, if the dog was stray, if there was an incident during, you know while they were at the shelter, or if you're adopting out or you're transferring to another rescuer shelter, you have to disclose any bite history become part of the law because it's really common sense and common decency. But it just highlights that fact that if you don't ask and tell, that's when you're going to get into trouble and it should be that way. It's not fair to pawn off a problem dog on somebody who doesn't know what they're getting themselves into.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah, I don't think it's talked about enough, because people that rescue animals, of course, are really attached to the animals that they might be fostering or they might have in their shelter system. And it can be, you know, sometimes when we have to disclose that bite history, that significantly reduces the options for the animal. So you know, I can understand that side of it as well as like, hey, I'm just trying to do the best for this and if I don't maybe tell about this one bite, you know you might try to slide it, but of course that does a disservice to the dogs as well as the organizations.
Speaker 1:I find Absolutely you know, especially if you start seeing a high frequency of bite histories coming out of one organization that can taint, of course, that organization's reputation, as well as even breeds that might be coming out of that. So we have to be careful and responsible, of course, in the work we do Absolutely, yeah. So we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors and we're going to come back and talk about what we can do to protect ourselves, whether we're professionals or dog guardians. If you're looking to better understand or work with aggression in dogs, we've got four powerful learning opportunities for you at AggressiveDogcom, whether you're a dog pro, a dedicated guardian or somewhere in between. Let's start with the Real Life Solutions for Aggression in Dogs course.
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Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Heidi Meinzer. We've been talking about all of the ramifications for dog bites, but let's get into what people should do if a dog bite happens. Maybe we can separate this into if a dog guardian is there and their dog just happens to bite somebody, whether off property or on property, and then the pet pros. Dog guardian is there and their dog just happens to bite somebody, whether off property or on property, and then the pet pros that are out there and they're overseeing a class or they're at a park with their client and their dog bites somebody. So what are the appropriate steps or responsible steps to take, especially from a legal lens?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean from the legal end and just practical end. First thing first is just make sure that the dogs are separated and the dog who bit just gets put somewhere safe. That's the first thing you want to do make sure that the dog who bit goes to somewhere safe, protected, where they can calm down. And then make sure the people are okay, or the other dog or cat, whoever got bit, is okay. And again, some people are afraid to like admit anything or this or that. But, like I said, I think it's the responsible thing to make sure, because the fact of the matter is somebody got bit right.
Speaker 2:So care for that person, make sure first aid or they get to where they need to go, whether it's urgent care, hospital, whatever. Make sure they get help immediately and as much as you can, as politely as you can. If you can get some photos, that would be great. I mean, in the day and age where we all have cell phones, it's helpful to do for everybody. But of course you've got to be polite and get consent to take anybody's photos and you don't want to delay getting care just for the sake of a photo. So manage that as best you can.
Speaker 2:And again, when things calm down and you're able to do so, if you can figure out who the witnesses were, who was around, and then, as time goes on, if the ring cameras or something else right to show what had happened. Again, that's later down the road, not the immediate pressing concern. And again, if you are the one who owned the dog who bit, get that rabies vaccination certificate ready to go, so that you are and I wouldn't even necessarily wait for animal control to come right Make sure that that person knows yes, the dog's vaccinated you're, you know you're good. That is again like top of my mind with those cases.
Speaker 1:And what about trainers on scene? Let's say that you're a trainer and this happens on your watch. Should they be getting other additional records or how should they be handling it, Because it's really there? I guess we could say they're in care, custody and control of the dog at the time, especially if they're handling the dog during the session, and maybe we can even break that out as another question too because, I'm sure traders are wondering well, what if I'm handling the dog, the dog bites somebody?
Speaker 1:or if the client's handling the dog, the dog bites somebody, or I'm giving the direction of the session, like, am I still in care, custody and control? So first start with what to do if the dog bites, like what should the trainer do above and beyond what a guardian would do? And then some of the other aspects I was just talking about.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean certainly run through what I had just said. I mean that would apply obviously to the trainer as well. And then if you have insurance, you know you have to give notice of a claim. It may not be that you have to report it immediately. It may be something that you can work out. But as soon as you get a letter from an attorney saying hey, I'm coming in, then obviously you want to send that along to your insurance company right away. It could be something that won't get to that point of a lawsuit. You can hope for that.
Speaker 2:But whether, in that immediate moment when the bite happens again, do all the emergency stuff I went over but also keep records of everything, every text, every email, every photo on your phone, everything in case right, because you might get a letter two years down the road and you just want to start maintaining a file now and don't destroy anything. Make sure if there are any employees around. If an employee got bit, it might be a worker's comp situation. So it's really a matter of keeping your head on straight, doing those emergency things that we talked about with an owner and then records, like just making sure that you have good records, that you have in a file that you maintain just in case, and then, as soon as it seems like there's going to be a lawsuit because you get a notice from the person bit, or especially from their attorney then get your insurance company involved yeah, because they can subpoena all of your notes, all of your emails, all of your texts right and right I'm assuming it looks bad.
Speaker 2:If you suddenly be like well, I deleted all of that and they're gonna be exactly why and you right, and I tell people too, like you should, you should have, even, you know, a small trainer. You should have a policy about when you're going to destroy documents In this day and age. You know people purge stuff and that's fine if you're being consistent, right? So Interesting, yeah. And the last thing you want to do is have a five year retention or seven year retention policy, and this is the one time you destroyed things in a year, and then, after that year, you get a notice, and then people are looking at you like it could have just been a mistake, right, but it doesn't look good. It doesn't look good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that totally makes sense. Now, what about the care, custody and control? How does that work If, let's say, I'm at the park and I'm with Mrs Jones and I'm like, mrs Jones, let's work over here, and Mrs Jones is handling the leash, but I'm saying, you know, let's work around. These children are doing something really stupid. So what happens in those cases?
Speaker 2:If the owner still has the leash but you're giving directions that are not smart, right? You don't have the right equipment on the dog. You know you have the dog on a form of leash that is not physical. Let's say, you know, and there's children right there with a dog, you know is problematic. You may have failed to give sufficient instructions and if that person's relying on you, you may be negligent along with the owner. You may be coming into the lawsuit with that owner because they were relying on you as an expert and you were being negligent. Same going with if you're the one holding the leash, right. If you're holding the leash, even more so, you have custody of the animal and you may be liable if you don't have the right equipment or you, you know, getting too close to the children. Oh, the dog is ready to go up to this four-year-old right, and so, yes, you can be negligent just as much as the owner in certain situations.
Speaker 1:From my understanding too, of all the dog bite cases that I hear about, or trainers talking about, or even my clients in their previous lawsuits. It's for attorneys and the ones prosecuting or like going after these cases from the plaintiff's side side it seems like a slam dunk most of the time, like the dog bites, whether you're the trainer holding the leash, the client's holding leash, the dog's on property, like it's. If the dog bites a lot of times it's like all right, the insurance companies were like you know what, here you go, here's your check. Does that seem like the case these days?
Speaker 2:unless, like we were talking about, you have a ring video of the guy you know poking a rod at the dog or something like that and that's the the policy decision right of these states that have gone to the strict liability form of civil liability instead of the one free bite. Stuff happens and, um, there are times when it you know, an insurance company may feel like they want to fight because they have a decent argument that you were showing your reasonable duty of care and it was just something completely. Maybe the leash broke right, you had all the right equipment and something broke right. So maybe it's the fault of the leash manufacturer, not you. But for the most part, I think most fights when there is sufficient injury. You know most insurance companies are going to want to get rid of those cases, just not fight them, especially strict liability situation.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about what we can do to protect ourselves. So we can probably break this up into two things like the legal layers of protections, like insurance, things like that, but also exercising. We're talking about diligence. Due diligence like saying, hey, I'm doing my job to advocate for my dog as well as protect the general public, whether I know there's a bite history or not. So we could do things like leash and a muzzle, but what are some other things that maybe we're not thinking about? Or other ways that would say, okay, the dog did bite somebody, but we're able to say we really did our diligence here, or something that additional layers of protection, that a person or a trainer can do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I back way up because a lot of people just can't sleep at night and are worried about the liability and I tell people, if you have three things in place, can you get sued? Of course you can always get sued. There's the clerk is at the court taking the paperwork. They're not going to go, oh, this doesn't have any merit, they're just going to take it and file it right. So the three things that you must have first off in my mind are a separate entity, an LLC or corporation or something, so that your personal assets are protected.
Speaker 2:Number two insurance With a good insurance company who knows our industry. There are at least a couple of them out there who are very well known and understand our industry and a lot of times you want that because personal property can be another dog and it can get written out of some general liability policies so that if your dog bites another dog, the personal property got injured, it's not covered versus the ones who know our industry and they will have vet expenses and everything written in. And then the third thing is a good contract. Make sure that you have a good contract that says you know, writes out those limitations of liability and educates the client about what their obligations are for their dog, that they're going to be on the hook and if somebody sues you, that they're going to cover you. Right, so your insurance is covering you and the contract is covering you. That puts, I think, a big onus on you to do the things you were talking about, mike about. Then you're being responsible, right.
Speaker 2:So you know the practical things and then the policy things. Make sure that you have thought through your policies, not only your document destruction, right, but your emergency policy. I like to see it written out, exactly what we talked about First I'm going to make sure the dog is taken care of, then I'm going to make sure the human or the dog who got bit is taken care of, and then I'm going to see if I can take photos, if it's proper to do so, and then you know, just walk a written policy through, because in the heat of the moment you just you know your brain goes blank. It just it happens. We're human. No-transcript, if that's the one problem that you've got. So again, you don't always have to write out your policies, but sometimes it helps. And if you're doing aggression cases on a routine basis, if you're doing aggression cases on a routine basis. I would have an equipment policy written out and be consistent with it.
Speaker 1:It's better to do too much right Then, then not enough 100% agree on that too, because I think some of the trainers listening in right now are probably like well, what if Mrs Jones is like you know what, I don't think I need the muzzle anymore, right? So they're out with a dog with a bite history, maybe have that double leash, but they don't have the muzzle on and we're not enforcing that with the client. It's like, hey, mrs Jones, when we're out here and I'm directing the traffic of this session, meaning I'm saying all right, we're going to go to the park and your dog's not muzzled, it puts you at risk, right?
Speaker 1:Because, if all of your other clients were like yeah, we're muzzled always out at the park with a dog with a bite history. That is something that's, I know, difficult for some trainers because they're like oh, no clients aren't going to listen and they kind of let things slide.
Speaker 2:But that puts you at risk, right, or find a fence to it, right, like, have it in your policy. We'll be muzzled. And once we get to a certain number of lessons, no muzzle is if we're in an enclosed, fenced area that doesn't let the public in, or something like that. Right, just make yourself think through, just like the layers of training that you're doing for any dog, as you're, you know, building in duration or distance or distraction, right, the same thing. You're building in slowly and holding yourself to it, and it's. You're setting an example for the client too, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Do you want to plug any resources for any of the three layers of protection you've mentioned? So we can. Any insurance companies? You have separate entities like LLCs. Are there any services you recommend out there? And then attorneys for, like, reviewing contracts?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So for the LLC corporation thing, I am not a fan of the things like LegalZoom. I find them to be too generic. I think going to your state bar or your local bar and asking for some small business attorneys is the way to go. I really do.
Speaker 1:It gives me heartburn when I see some of the things that I've seen come out of some of the apps I'm like, oh, I just get heartburn.
Speaker 2:And then for insurance, the two big ones I can think of are the Hartford and the Business Insurers the Carolinas. They know our industry really well. They have some great products out there. They have great people to pick up the phone and say, hey, I have a facility or I don't, or I have this or I have that, and just making sure that you have the right combination of protection, I don't think you could beat one of the two of those. And then for attorneys, for contracts, I think again like going to your small business, your local bar or your state bar for small business attorneys. If they have an animal law section two, all the better. A friend of mine, Adam Karp in Washington State, who has been practicing animal law for a couple decades now and who's wonderful and has a great attorney referral source on his website. So that's often where I send folks looking for animal law attorneys. That's often where I send folks to take a look.
Speaker 1:Perfect, perfect. Now we're talking about the trainer or professional side. What if you're a homeowner and you've got a dog that's bitten already? Homeowner's insurance is settled and now you're shopping around for another one, or sometimes the clients get dropped from that. What are some additional things they can do Because they can't say well, I'm going to form an LLC just because I have a dog. What are steps that they can take to ensure that they're doing their best to protect themselves and their dog?
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, I think it's when you look at the dangerous dog laws and the things that they put into place. Even if your dog didn't get deemed dangerous, there are just some smart things to do. Right, if you have a yard, to enclose it in a way that people can't get their fingers in there you were mentioning too cement or make sure the dog can't dig under. If your dog is a digger, climb over, write the rulers and different things you might see on the top of the fence to keep the dog from going over. Muzzle is the biggest thing and I tell people all the time don't be afraid of the muzzle, because it protects you. If you're out walking your dog and your dog is on a muzzle, and if someone crosses the street, great, you're just giving your dog space, right, it's just the smart thing.
Speaker 2:And then, like the trainers, we were talking about the double leash system if you're walking your dog and I do think what breaks a lot of people's hearts is the dangerous dog who has like very little life right, you want to find a way to make sure you're enriching that dog. Do nose work in your backyard, do you know? Do something every day with your dog to make sure they still have a life, because you don't just want to stick them in a crate all day just to have them. It's not fair to them either. So again, like you know, working with somebody with training, enrichment, behavior modification and being smart about that stuff and humane.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's something we talk about all the time on the show and it's the lack of enrichment that comes from, you know, lack of just basic needs being met when the dog is severely contained because of these restrictions or concern about dog bites. And so it's a fine balance really finding, like you know, safety and making sure the dog doesn't bite anybody, as well as ensuring that dog lives a good quality of life, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and good fences too. I think one thing fences that self-close or a double fencing system I've seen you know, just simple, simple management things. I feel like some of the best trainers I know are the ones who are very creative about good management stipulations that need to be placed.
Speaker 1:So how often do you see that and how much does an impact really make in terms of what the courts will say Okay, you did the training well. Or do they have like a checkbox or some way of evaluating Did this work and now the dog doesn't need this, or now the dog doesn't have that dangerous dog designation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's court by court and judge by judge how much they want to put stock in that. Some judges won't get into that, they just want to hear about the incident right. When I prepare a case, a dangerous dog case, I like to think of three buckets. I think of the dog and I want to know everything about that dog and whether they've had any issues before, what their specific triggers are. Were those triggers involved in this case? Right.
Speaker 2:Then I want to know about the owner. Is this somebody who was otherwise really responsible? Did they have other dogs and their dogs were fine? Or are they somebody who's letting their dog run off leash all the time? You know all that up to date on the vaccines and licenses and registrations and all that stuff. So the owner themselves and how compliant or not they might be. And then the facts of the case right. Was there a provocation? Was there this, was there that? What was in play?
Speaker 2:I present all three of those and I like to have the dog evaluated, not only for the circumstances that were involved in the case, but also going forward having the owner work with the dog, if they have the means to do that, as, again, a way of showing responsibility, mitigating and getting a handle on the owner and the dog, getting to know each other a little better and trust each other a little more and develop that relationship better. I think that's crucial and some courts are really open to hearing about that. And again, what I love about our deferred adjudication is when I have a case like that, I can build that as part of a package to recommend to the court like this really should be a deferred adjudication and we're going to a veterinary behaviorist and the dog is on medication now and let's have a review in six months and you can see the progress. You can really, if you have a sympathetic judge, you can really get creative and do some really good stuff.
Speaker 1:I love that because there's so many positives that can come out of that. Of course, the relationship building. You mentioned the training that can happen, the lifting of certain designations that may not be appropriate for the dog, so it's really great to hear that that's in place because it's not like that of course in all of the jurisdictions.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned provocation as well. So that is a very subjective word, depending on who's arguing the case right, and I've seen that play out in some of the cases I've worked, where the level of provocation is really who's describing it, because it's really the dog's point of view and as experts we come in and sometimes have to interpret that. So can you just unpack that word a little bit and give a couple descriptions of what it looks like?
Speaker 2:Sure, and it's a really interesting point, we do have provocation as a defense in Virginia, but it doesn't say from whose perspective. And I've had judges in Virginia say well, the person has to intend to provoke, and I think I agree with you, Mike I think that's the wrong analysis. There's a great Illinois case that breaks down provocation and talks about it's from the standpoint of the dog. It's a lot like self-defense with with a human. You know, based on the circumstances that you're put in, are you having a reasonable reaction to what's happening and is your reaction a reasonable amount of force? And, as we know with dogs, you know some dogs react to things that a, that a quote unquote reasonable dog wouldn't necessarily react to and will have a an amount of force or amount of reaction that is reasonable or unreasonable, right. So, and I think having a trainer to explain that and I've done that, I've had an expert to explain hovering over a dog or putting your hand over a dog can be provoking and and you've got to look at it from the dog's perspective. So if you're lucky enough to be Illinois, where you already have a case on point, that's great. When you're in Virginia you have to be prepared to argue that it should be from the standpoint of the dog, not whether the person intended to provoke or not, Because the person may not have really done anything wrong but could nonetheless be provoking to the dog and be prepared to have an expert who can talk about that. And you have to be prepared.
Speaker 2:For even if it was provoking from the dog standpoint, was it too much right? Was it was too much of a reaction? Based on the totality of the circumstances the court could still say the dog's not dangerous and not even do the deferred adjudication. I had a very interesting case where a girl waltzed into somebody's house singing and flailing her arms around and a dog was pretty sensitive flailing her arms around and a dog was pretty sensitive. I mean this dog. This dog would have reacted beyond what most dogs would do and did and fit, fortunately not very bad. And the court said look, it's not quite trespass, it's not quite provocation, but based on the totality I'm not going to find this dog dangerous, Like it was behavior by the human that just wasn't quite right on the dog's turf. So there's a lot to unpack and it's an interesting defense with provocation, both that standpoint of what might provoke a dog and, if provoked, what's a reasonable reaction? To be able to be ready, in that case, to describe to the court.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's great you broke that down really well, because I know it's a tough one to you know, really explain, because it really does matter what happens in a case. So, to wrap things up here, can you think of a case that really ties together? Because you're obviously a skilled lawyer, you've got that legal side, but also you love animals and you have the dog trainer side. So can you think of a case or a situation where it ties both of those worlds together nicely?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had a case that I consider to be the most rewarding case that I worked on. It wasn't a huge case, it was just a general district court case, but I was representing a dog owner who got her dog from a local pet shop and this little Yorkie poo, tiny little mini thing, I mean just should not have been bred. Frankly, you know, definitely from God only knows where. Some puppy mill got brought into Virginia and this pet shop was having problem after problem after problem and right as we were suing, animal control went in and seized all of the animals and the place got shot down and I brought in a veterinarian who was able to say you know, that animal just never had a chance. The little puppy got sick, upper respiratory stuff, every antibiotic they tried. The strain was immune to all these antibiotics because they had been pumped with antibiotics for all the crap going through that pet shop. I mean it was really tragic and the poor lady did everything she could do to try to save her dog and the dog succumbed anyways.
Speaker 2:Money we got a nice judgment for fraud, misrepresentation, virginia Consumer Protection Act violations. It was very vindicating. I mean a judgment on a piece of paper that we never got money for ultimately, but attorney's fees, which is very rare. But the place got shot down and all of the animals that were in there, that were suffering from similar maladies, made it to the shelter and foster care and ultimately into good homes. So that felt good. One other thing I can't help but plug because I'm here in Virginia. If you remember the Envigo Beagles, the 4,000 Envigo Beagles in a breeding facility that got shot down, also here in Virginia, with litigation and legislation and all this stuff, and that that brought, like every animal welfare, every animal protection group in Virginia together to get those 4,000 beetles out. It was really special, amazing, really special.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, thank you for the work you do on both sides of the coin for the animal industry. And so where can people find you Like? I plugged the APDT at the beginning when going through your bio, but tell us more about what the APDT is up to, as well as what you're up to next.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you can find me at mindsorlawcom. That's my website. You can find my contact information there. I do a lot of labor law. Now Virginia is letting localities dip into collective bargaining. So don't fear, if you get on my website and you see all kinds of labor law. Now Virginia is letting localities dip into collective bargaining. So don't fear, if you get on my website and you see all kinds of labor law stuff, you can still reach out to me for animal law stuff and I'm happy to help and I still do help plenty of trainers and APDT. Of course you can find more about me there.
Speaker 2:I'm the immediate past chair. So I am finally winding my way through my board service. It's been a great ride. The biggest plug I can give is a PDT conference in November November 5th through the 7th of this year right in my backyard, richmond, virginia. Richmond is an amazing little city. There's tons to do, it's a great conference site and we're going to have tours, workshops at the Richmond SPCA. If you've never been to the Richmond SPCA, it is one of, if not the best shelter in the country, so please come on down and join us in Virginia. Really excited to have my last APDD conference on the board be right in my backyard.
Speaker 1:Fantastic and I will be there as well. So if you guys listening in want to come see both of us, come down and hang out at the APDT conference. Heidi, thank you so much. This has been amazing, very informative, and I hope to see you again here on the future.
Speaker 2:Sounds great. Thanks for having me, mike. To see you again here on the future. Sounds great. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Mike, it was wonderful talking to Heidi about the often overlooked legal side of working and living with dogs.
Speaker 1:Her unique perspective as both an attorney and a trainer offer valuable insights into how we can better protect ourselves, our clients and the dogs in our care. Whether you're a professional or a dog guardian, understanding your legal responsibilities is a crucial part of ensuring safety and building trust. And if you're ready to go deeper into understanding and helping dogs with aggression, visit aggressivedogcom. Whether you're a professional or a dedicated dog guardian, you'll find everything from the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program of its kind, to expert-led webinars, informative articles and the Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from September 26th through 28th 2025 in Charlotte, North Carolina, with both in-person and virtual options. And don't forget to check out our Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes, which are solo shows where I walk you through real world strategies for issues like resource guarding, fear-based aggression, territorial behavior and more. Just hit, subscribe or head to the show notes for more info. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends. Bye.