The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
From Bites to Breakthroughs: Human-Directed Aggression with Jacqueline Drake
When your beloved dog growls, lunges, or even bites someone, it creates a unique kind of heartbreak. You're caught between protecting the people you care about and understanding the dog you love. In this candid, illuminating conversation, Certified Dog Behavior Consultant Jacqueline Drake shares her expertise on navigating the emotional complexity of dog-to-human aggression cases.
Drawing from over thirteen years of experience working with challenging behaviors, Jacqueline offers a refreshingly nuanced perspective that honors both ends of the leash. Rather than focusing solely on quick fixes or broad labels, she delves into the detective work necessary to understand the specific contexts that trigger aggression and the unique factors influencing each case. Her compassionate approach acknowledges that behind every growl lies a story—sometimes of pain, fear, confusion, or past trauma—that needs to be understood before meaningful change can happen.
About Jacqueline:
https://trainingbyjacqueline.com/meetyourtrainer/
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AggressiveDog.com
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The Aggression in Dogs Conference
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In today's episode, I'm joined by Jacqueline Drake, a rising voice in the field of canine behavior, who brings a thoughtful, research-informed and deeply compassionate lens to some of the most emotionally charged cases in dog training those involving aggression towards humans. Jacqueline and I dig into the complexity behind these cases, exploring not just the behavioral mechanics but also the emotional weight they carry for both dogs and the people who love them. Whether it's building trust with a dog who has bitten before or helping a guardian navigate fear and guilt, jacqueline offers clear insights and grounded strategies for working through these challenges with empathy and care. She's a certified dog behavior consultant and a fear-free animal trainer and has vast experience working with dog to human aggression in veterinary and rescue settings and is earning her master's in applied animal behavior and welfare. And before we jump into today's episode, a quick heads up If you're looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, head on over to AggressiveDogcom, because we've got something for everyone.
Speaker 1:For pet pros, there's the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available on aggression, packed with expert insights and CEUs. For dog guardians, check out Real Life Solutions, which is a practical course for everyday challenges like leash reactivity and dog-to-dog aggression. Jacqueline just happens to be one of the experts in the course and she covers everything you need to know about dog-to-human aggression, and if you want full access to expert webinars, live mentor sessions and exclusive discounts, the Ultimate Access Membership is just $29.95 a month. You'll also find info on the 2025 Aggression and Dogs Conference happening in Charlotte this September. That can all be found at aggressivedogcom. Check it out after the show.
Speaker 1:Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bitey End of the Dog. This week we're going to be jumping into the topic of dog to human aggression, and one of the things you guys might notice I've done on the show is I like to bring in specialists, those that actually really focus on a particular topic, and I can't think of anybody else better than Jacqueline Drake, who's joining me this week. So welcome to the show, jacqueline.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for having me. I'm super excited.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love this topic because it's definitely a case we see quite often, of course, in our work with aggression cases, and it's a tough one because oftentimes the human relationships are impacted. So we're going to talk more about that. But you know, I kind of want to know, and I'm sure the listeners want to know, what got you into working with dogs. You know in general, but then also kind of focusing on this dog to human aggression case aspect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I feel like I have a very standard intro into the dog world as far as getting a dog that has behavior issues. So back in 2013, I actually went to volunteer at a shelter in Louisiana it's Villalobos Rescue Center and when I was volunteering there I fell in love with a dog who had been in that shelter for about nine years and they had kind of defaulted to hey, you know, she's got such significant trauma that we'll just hang on to her, we'll let her kind of age in the shelter and you know there's a lot of opinions on that and this was quite a long time ago. But in my young 20s I said, nope, I'd like to take that dog home. Her name was Puma and she had previously. When she was about six months old, she was owned by someone who had some issues and at six months old there was a raid on his home and so there was a police standoff, lots of noises, and so that was what her big issue was is significant noise sensitivity. To the point that I remember when I first went to walk her and they handed the leash to me and they said, hey, like she probably won't go potty, but just in case she also might pass out if she hears a noise and I remember being like what do you mean, you know? So she never ended up doing that with me and there were a few times where she actually went potty when she was out with me and we're in, you know, new Orleans, so it was really noisy and there was a lot going on and I think, just seeing her feel comfortable and kind of falling in love with her, I decided I wanted to bring her back to Michigan and so I was not a trainer at that point, knew nothing about behavior, but I just thought I wanted to bring her home.
Speaker 2:And so much, like everybody else, my story is that instead of finding a trainer, I opened a book and ended up becoming one over time.
Speaker 2:So she started my career really she's my business logo, her face, and she's the reason that I am even in this world because of the curiosity of how to help her. And I unfortunately lost her pretty quick to cancer and so quickly after that I ended up with my second dog, who I currently have named Porter, who was supposed to be behaviorally euthanized by the rescue he was in and his issue was actually dog aggression. But over the years he had sometimes the standard kind of stranger danger, as we call it. He had sometimes the standard kind of stranger danger, as we call it, and so just knowing who he was with me at home and in everyday life and then knowing how he presented to the public, it kind of built my passion for dogs that have significant behavior struggles. For a long time I took really any case that I thought was appropriate or I was capable to do. But in the last few years I've gotten into that specialty of dogs with big behavior struggles and seeing cases of dog-to-human aggression, dog-to-dog aggression and fear, anxiety, all of those things.
Speaker 1:And so is there a particular aspect of aggression cases in general that that had you leaning towards dog to human aggression cases as well, because I know you work all the types of cases but specifically you know one of your specialties is the dog to human side. So is there something that that drew you to that more so than other types?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think there it's kind of twofold. And what I was saying just now, as far as a lot of people, I can relate and sympathize with them when it comes to them saying I want other people to see the dog that I know, so dogs that have issues with other people outside of the owner. And then also the flip side is if it is directed towards the owner, you know, knowing what it feels like to question and feel uncertain about the relationship with the dog and how to repair that and to know that there is hope for that repair. I think that's what really drives me to take on those cases, because I can put myself in people's shoes and really sympathize and help them to not only see the dog side of it but also make sure that they feel heard and they feel seen with what they're going through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your story is so similar to a lot of what gets us in there as trainers but, I think your story also resonates with me in the sense of what gets us into working aggression cases, because you not only mentioned the dog's point of view but the human's point of view there so you're looking at both sides and empathizing with both sides, which I think makes for a really successful behavior consultant when it comes to behavior problems and aggression cases.
Speaker 1:And the interesting thing in the Puma is that you mentioned the trust, for there was there, like the safety, and it also the dog's like you need to be a dog trainer. This person needs to be doing that with dogs.
Speaker 2:Little do you know. You're going to bring me home and I'm going to change your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing how they teach us what to do. It's what happened to me, my work with dogs. So we were focusing on dog to human aggression and I'd love to know how Jacqueline classifies dog to human aggression. And I'd love to know how Jacqueline classifies, you know, dog to human aggression cases, because we've had many different guests on the show looking at it from different angles. So things like when we talk about categorization of aggression cases, we think of maybe different lenses we might apply, like a just labeling these things into the emotions that might cause them like fear-based aggression, or we might describe them as context-like locations, like territorial aggression, or we might even look at the medical model and say like pain-related aggression. So when you're thinking about, either in your conversations with professionals or even with clients, how do you typically help them understand what's going on with the type of case or the type of dog to human related aggression?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that comes up a lot for pet guardians is they want to know what it is, they want that label, they want to be able to.
Speaker 2:I think it to them they feel like they understand it better and they can communicate it better if they say, oh, my dog is a resource guard or has stranger danger.
Speaker 2:And what's difficult for me is over the years, when I first started, I was very quick to label and make those assumptions of, hey, that's got to be this.
Speaker 2:And I will tell you that being in grad school has really flipped everything I've ever thought on its head.
Speaker 2:So a lot of things that we use in everyday language in the behavior field is very different in the academic field, and I think really what that did for me is actually helped me to not be so rigid in seeking a label or giving clients a label, and so I've mostly gotten into pointing out to clients the context and what is causing the dog to feel a certain way. So instead of saying, oh, the dog has stranger danger, I really like to dive in and help them to figure out who is it that your dog is reacting to, because there are some strangers that they actually might not react to, and I think sometimes these broad labels it can almost similar to dominance, like it can put a wall up, like it can put a wall up. So I would actually say, like in the last few years I've I don't use as many labels and I'm more so focused on like exactly what that specific dog is dealing with in certain contexts, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and I've been talking about that actually a lot lately is context. Contexts are the best way to help clients understand, because you know, when you talk about dog bite safety too and avoiding dog bites, we're often looking at body language right and what the human's doing. Those, of course, matter and are super important.
Speaker 2:So let's not say we're going to push those off to the absolute part of the understanding.
Speaker 1:But context, when you think about it, is going to be something that most people can recognize without having to see the body language all the time. So what are some common contexts? So if you were to say, okay, my most common context, rather than my most common types of aggression cases, because we could say I see territorial aggression a lot or I see stranger danger, and we kind of know what we're talking about when we say those things, but it doesn't really help the dog and it doesn't really spell out exactly what's happening. So when we talk about context, what are probably some of the most common ones you see in your dog? To human aggression cases?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say, visitors coming to the home, even having, you know, my own dog, who is a little bit talkative when the neighbors are out and about in the backyard, but yet he's super friendly.
Speaker 2:So you know that context of being in the backyard, but yet he's super friendly. So that context of being in his backyard, maybe not being able to see the other person very well, being a little uncertain of what's going on, kind of alerting to it, context of being in a vet clinic or being in a groomer, things like that. So I think there's a lot of different and I love that you said we're not going to do away with a lot of the foundational things that we know and we teach. One thing that came to at the end of the conversation she's like Jacqueline. This is why can't it be black and white, you know? Why is it not just very straightforward and I think that's something to always remember is there is some grayscale to it because contexts can change and so we're really trying to look at, you know, the context that happened most frequently for that dog, where they're producing aggressive responses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we kind of take all the fun out of it if it's just black and white right.
Speaker 2:I mean it makes our job easy, but what's the fun in that?
Speaker 1:But since dogs are not robots, right, that's the quote. Unquote. Nice thing about these cases is that you know they are very unique in this, in the sense of each case is going to be so different depending on the context and depending on all the variables we're going to jump into as well. So we've talked about contexts, we've talked a little bit about some of the basics of why dogs might display dog to human aggression, but let's jump into maybe some of the other you mentioned causes. So more of the causes, like the emotional aspect, the emotions that dogs might experience. So can you get in? We could talk about medical, we could talk about genetics, but so what are common things you want your clients to understand for causes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think pain and discomfort jumps to the top of the list. I think we're seeing a really good shift in the world of behavior. Looking at the whole health of the dog before we're attempting to look at. You know their emotion if it's truly just their opinion versus they're actually not feeling good and that you know pain and discomfort can. You can get into, obviously, medical conditions as far as arthritis or you know nerve issues all the way to a dog that is diabetic. And like I just had a client who it wasn't even the dog I'm working with, but her other dog they he apparently got into a whole bunch of treats the night before and he's diabetic, right, and so he's fully not himself the next day and lucky for that client, she found the bag of treats. She has kind of a known reason as to why he's acting differently.
Speaker 2:But for a lot of people I don't think that we think about those things and there can be a lot of reasons. Another recent scenario was a greyhound who was becoming aggressive when she was resting on the couch and the owners would just go to sit with her and she had been in the home for a long time and it wasn't necessarily sudden. It had been building for a while. But something like that most people run towards, the cause is going to be that she's being dominant or she's being picky and she doesn't want to share her space. And so, assessing something like that, again coming back to pain, I immediately said, hey, let's get her into the vet, let's just double check that she's feeling good.
Speaker 2:And this is a rescued race racing greyhound, a champion racer. And so they found significant arthritis and nerve damage in her back end and almost immediately, with adding pain meds to her regimen, she was not exhibiting aggression at all. So obviously pain and discomfort is a big one. I think you know sometimes not most of the time we see kind of those breed characteristics, so like our guardian dogs, that you know they are bred to have a specific job to some extent and so if that job is not available to them so thinking quickly of you know the border collie that's in a suburban home they're going to find other outlets for that. So it can be kind of displaced energy and what they're bred to do. And then just the other big one would be probably learning history, experience in the world, even poor socialization, not really having a lot of exposure. I think those are some of the root causes that can lead to these aggressive tendencies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're mentioning very similar to what I've seen, you know, in terms of the major causes we need to educate clients on, especially if there's a lot of blame on the dog about you know this dog is being stubborn, or the other typical labels, so helping them understand well, your dog might be in pain and not actually trying to take over the world, kind of you know explanations, but as you're mentioning those things, I was going through some of the different emotional aspects as well.
Speaker 1:So if we think of pain, we might also think of a fear-based response, because even if the pain is resolved, the dog could still be afraid of hands reaching towards the ears or something if it had a prior ear infection. Or if we look at guarding the territory with a livestock guardian dog, we might not be looking at a negative, balanced emotion at all. The dog can be like this is my life, I love doing what I'm doing and sitting outside in the snow and it's zero degrees and protecting the flock, right, and we as humans don't often see that. But that dog could be actually having a good time doing that because we've selected for that and breeding. And then even like dogs that guard food, for instance, like a dog that's guarding the food bowl, we might see like more anger or rage, just the emotions. So we typically hear the phrase. You know fear is the root of most aggression. Would you agree that fear is kind of, in your experience, one of the most common emotions?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say definitely one of the most common, and I think there's layers to the fear, just like you're talking about. As far as fear of what has happened in the past producing a bad experience, or fear of just something being taken, like in the case of resource guarding, I think fear can have a lot of different layers to it. And one thing that came to mind just now when you were talking about those different emotions or learning history too, I'm going through this with my senior dog right now, who previously was in a lot of pain, and I didn't realize until duh, talking to one of my vet behavior colleagues who was like Jacqueline, you know this, let's try a pain regimen that's a little bit more intense and just rule out if that's the case. And prior to him starting pain meds, there were a couple of instances.
Speaker 2:I have cats as well, and so when he's all curled up on the couch and a cat goes to step on him, not realizing he's under the blanket, extra painful right, and so we've got that shark moment where he really launches and is upset, and now even post pain meds. He's been on pain meds for a long time, you know. I know he feels good, but we still have that kind of association and that fear of previously that caused me a lot of discomfort. So if a cat even puts one little paw on him, not realizing he launches into wait, am I still worried about that? So I definitely think that there's a lot of things that can go on that we have to really look closely at.
Speaker 1:Let's step outside the normal cases and go into some of the more not as common types of causes. You've seen, can you think of anything off the top of your mind? That is, some of the listeners might be like, ooh, that's me, or that sounds like my kind of case.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, okay. So when that comes to mind I laugh because it's funny when I'm looking at these dogs, but thinking of dogs like our newest, you know, bernadoodles, golden Doodles, really any dog that has a whole lot of hair. I have seen a lot of cases I guess not a lot, but a few cases where the dog was behaving aggressively towards people and it was truly because they just couldn't see like their hair was overgrown right, and so I love every case. Every case to me is like a puzzle of trying to figure out, like, what is causing this dog to feel so uncomfortable. But yeah, appearance or grooming sometimes can cause dogs to feel uncomfortable because they just can't see what's going on. Same with dogs that are blind, right, you know, a lot of people don't think about how that world looks to them. So I think those cases are always fun to kind of point out and be like, hey, let's give Fido an extra haircut this week and see if that changes some of these behaviors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. You really piqued my interest when you said every case is different, because that's really what I've seen in good behavior consultants is that they're like detectives. Like we're kind of learning about a crime scene and probably the wrong choice again of a label. But that's really what we're doing is we don't need to see the actual crime committed. We're going to ask questions. We're going to look at the context or the crime scene, right?
Speaker 2:And where it happened.
Speaker 1:We're going to ask questions about it. What happened? What did the witnesses see? What did the victims experience Like many of the same kind of questions so we can determine what the cause and what the reason for the behavior is, Because it's not always obvious and that hair covering thing is something I've had to work with over the years, but I don't know if you feel the same, Jacqueline. But once you start seeing the same kind of case, it's really helpful Because future cases you're like oh okay, have we checked the dog's hair and the eyes yeah.
Speaker 1:Like that question. When it first happens it may not be so obvious, but then, as you gain more experience, it starts to be like all right, this is the kind of case, like the kind of case I've seen with separation anxiety, that I would have never experienced until I started getting these cases is the dog biting people as they try to leave the home?
Speaker 2:Right, they just dog's like.
Speaker 1:That's a significantly aversive event for me. So, I want to avoid that, and the way to avoid that is to use sometimes my teeth to keep my people in the home.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It's super rare. It's not a common type of case, but yeah interesting when we see it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did actually have a case like that early in my career. I personally my current boy. He had pretty significant separation anxiety and I got him and it was a very speaking of aversive. It was very aversive for me as a new dog mom and a budding trainer and I felt overwhelmed and so at this point I don't take separation anxiety cases. Funny enough, give me a dog that's trying to bite people just on a daily basis, but a dog that panics when I leave. I'm going to refer you to a colleague. But I had a case like that early in my career where the dog was not only going after the owner but then, when the owner would actually make it outside, the dog was biting the door handle and had punctured a metal door handle a bunch of times. So yeah, it can be very interesting to see the different you know varieties of those cases.
Speaker 1:Yeah, You're speaking my language, you know when you say like I'd rather do aggression all day long instead of the separation anxiety. So let's talk a little bit about for the pet guardians listening in as well as the dog pros, maybe starting out in aggression cases. Let's talk to the safety and management we typically employ, and then we can kind of get into more of the advanced stuff later on. But the basics, like what are you typically recommending right away Once you, if there's a bite history, especially in the home environment or with a dog going after humans.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will say early in my career I was a little bit too brave. You know I've never sustained a bite, but you know I have been lunged at. So I think safety is really, really important and it wasn't even. You know, leading with ego is just more of like it'll be fine, right, the owner will have him on leash, they'll take care of it. And I had quite a few instances where, you know, dog is on leash across the room and then the owner just drops the leash before I even give the go ahead. So I think we do have to take into account that it's really stressful on the dog and the owner when you're coming in as a consultant and so to give them very clear safety parameters when you're coming in. One of the things that I tend to do is I will shoot a message to the client the day of and say you know, hey, for my arrival Fluffy can be in a separate room, a crate outside, if the weather is nice, wherever they're most comfortable. You know, making sure that the dog is not meeting me in a really aggravated state to start, and I think that that really has kept me safe a lot of times. I haven't had really a poor outcome with that and then getting them out.
Speaker 2:I still personally do in-person consults. I've gone back and forth with starting out virtually. I think virtually is a great option to really get the gist of it. But you know, I've had a lot of luck with doing in-person and so once I go through the whole consult questionnaire and I get these detective pieces of OK. I've had a lot of luck with doing in person and so once I go through the whole consult questionnaire and I get these detective pieces of okay, I have a feeling this is what that dog might do and kind of how to go about it, making sure that we have a leash in place, a gate in place, even to say, hey, I'm going to step out of the house and go around to the backyard where you have a fence and I want you to bring Fido on leash outside in this fenced in area. So definitely high level bite cases, I'm staying pretty far from the dog.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of dogs that I don't physically interact with for a long time, if ever, just to keep them comfortable and keep them safe. But I think there's a lot of different ways that you can facilitate that safety. But leashes, gates, lot of different ways that you can facilitate that safety. But leashes, gates, fencing obviously muzzles. Some dogs come to me with prior muzzle training. Most don't. So I think that can be really difficult and I think a lot of times to defer owners to a YouTube video to start muzzle training. Some of them get uncomfortable. They really want to see you in person and talk to you about it. So I think those are some of the layers of safety that are really really important, either starting virtually or having a very clear step-by-step of I need the dog put away. Okay, now we're going to get the dog out. But I need you to listen to those step-by-step instructions and then even reiterating, once they get the dog out, this is exactly where you're going to go, what you're going to do, when to put the dog away again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that rigidity, or at least the very clear direction, sets the precedent for other people. Right? So you're going to do this with me as the trainer, but this will help you practice to what?
Speaker 2:I'm looking for with other people, right, yep, yeah. Being able to say like okay, exactly what we did today is how you're going to handle it when neighbor Sarah comes over tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's part of where our investigative work starts. Right, we have to figure out what's going to be the best for safety and management to keep us safe, based on their unique case, and also what's going to make the dog most comfortable with the safety and management we're recommending. Right, we were talking earlier about all the little nuances, so it's not the same in every case. You could be like, yeah, let's have your dog outside and fenced in yard, and you're like, as long as the weather's nice, and I'm like what about if?
Speaker 1:it's a livestock guardian dog and it's snowing out and they're like, yeah, I want to be outside, and then we'd have to make sure the hair is trimmed out of their face and all these little things right, that start adding up well, yeah, even down to the dog guardian's house set up.
Speaker 2:These are the things that I feel like just ignite my fire is to and also explain it to them. Okay, see how your front door is really tight. It's a really small space. The dog can't see things right away. We're not going to maybe start them when you have a guest over in the laundry room, where they can't really see and process very clearly right away. We might start them in a back room where, as soon as you open that door, they're able to see what's happening and see that guess there's no buildup. So I think that plays a huge role in it too, as far as setting things up for success for everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good insight there. So do you ever feel pressure when you get there in terms of because a lot of our clients they feel like they're probably really nervous How's my dog going to respond to the trainer, what's the trainer going to do? There's a lot of anxiety, I'm sure, in that moment. But the consideration from the trainer perspective too is how fast can we try to build a relationship with this dog and how is that going to impress upon the person that's watching this? Because in my mind many times I'm thinking the client's probably going towards. If they're the trainer can't even get close to my dog. Who's going to be able to get close to my dog? So at the same time we're doing things, as you know, to ensure the dog feels as safe as possible, to take our time, to go slowly, but at the same time there's that pressure subconsciously that you want to try to build a relationship with this dog, to show results, to show success. So give us your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love this. I think of a conference I went to very when I was a baby trainer and there was a speaker and of course I'm forgetting her name, but she. One of her things that she said that I have always repeated to clients and it's one of my favorite sayings is we have to feel a lot of pressure. I think it comes with the job title. As far as you know, we live in a world of instant gratification. People want results really quick, similar to my friend that I talked about saying why can't things be black and white, you know, why can't it be this really fast switch.
Speaker 2:Think when I explain to them that my job, coming in from day one, is not to provoke your dog, not to upset them, to start off on a really good foot, and by slowing down in those beginning stages we actually end up streamlining a lot of the process. I think that it really helps them to see it. The most salient way that people will think, okay, this is going to be worthwhile or useful is seeing it. And so, even with having these parameters of the dog starts away from me, we talk first, then we're going to get them out. We're going to be very methodical. Here's all the steps we're going to take.
Speaker 2:I just had a client who she unfortunately had a different trainer come in before me and it went really poorly and the dog was really agitated, really upset the entire time. And so me coming in the second time as a second opinion and her, you know, putting her dog away and kind of getting choked up and saying like he didn't even bark at you, you know, to be able to say, yeah, that's, our goal is not to agitate your dog and to build that trust right away, and the way that we do that is by taking these very thoughtful steps.
Speaker 1:You know, you just said something too. It's interesting that change, or the difference between you and the prior trainer. Obviously a lot has to do with what we're doing right, what we're doing with tools and how we approach, but I do think there's some people out there, going back to your first dog, that you into this is. There's just something about some people that dogs are going to feel much more comfortable around, and the way you're telling your story is like Jacqueline, I would love to go speed on a fly and I'll watch you to see the differences in the dog's reactions, because I actually see, definitely see the same thing. I think it's definitely how you approach. But even if, like you take the same approach with two different people, some dogs are just going to be more comfortable with just the demeanor. Maybe it's the tone of voice and the movements, but it's just the subtleties, right?
Speaker 2:Well, and I think something I always touch on which I think lowers the anxiety of clients as well, is when they do have a dog that's presenting as aggressive, which kind of dabbles into the reactivity lunging, barking, attempting to get to the person or dog or whatever it might be. I always set the tone too before they bring the dog out of. You know, if I don't might bark, that's okay. You know, we're not, we're, we're totally cool. And I think that was something too that I was asked early on in my career when I was working in a shelter and back when we were doing, really you know, rigid temperament tests and kind of poking at the dog to see what they would do. And I remember a dog that was a known resource guard or that came in and I had another shelter. I think it was a kennel attendant who sat in on me assessing this dog and I am just like you're talking about, like I'm very calm and that's what they said like how do you feel so calm when this dog might bite you?
Speaker 2:And I think that's a really important part of being a consultant or a trainer is we're not leading with ego in the sense of like coming in and trying to like what you know, what are you going to do?
Speaker 2:It's more of like yep, you might have a big feeling, you might lunge at me.
Speaker 2:That's okay, that's information and I will fix or alter what I'm doing to move forward.
Speaker 2:So just kind of coming in matter of fact, and that's a lot of what I teach when I'm with clients, either in their home or we're at a public location, and my clients a lot of times will joke because I narrate a lot. It's kind of become a habit where I'll either narrate and be like okay, and as we walk there's a guy in his yard to the left that you might not notice and he's got sunglasses and a hat, so Sophie might start barking at him and we're just going to keep moving. So I think that is a really not only for the dog to come in very chill and very matter of fact of you know, I'm not here to upset you, but I'm also here to make you feel better. It's also important for the client to see that, to see you know you just not coming in judgmental or harsh or, you know, reactionary yourself, to just be like okay, yep, that's, that's totally what happened, let's move forward or this is what we can do different next time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm really picking up on those vibes too, cause I'm thinking like if there's ever an apocalypse like I'd, I'd be cool with hanging out with Jacqueline, cause she's going to be like totally chill the whole time.
Speaker 2:Well, people in my real life might say different, but because I am. That's the funny part too, I think. Um, I am a person who was, in the last few years, diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and I went through a period where I was on medication for it. I'm now not on medication because I had some other side effects, but, um, it's funny because in every other area of my life I am the panic girl, but when it comes to dogs and like teaching people about their dogs, cool as a cucumber. So, yes, Interesting.
Speaker 1:It's almost like an outlet for yeah, almost that's amazing.
Speaker 2:It brings me calm most times, you know it's what I really enjoy about it is learning more from them, but also being able to share the knowledge and understanding that I know to make everybody else's lives better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, who would have thought like I want to get into like dogs, almost biting your face off as a way to just chill out, it's fine.
Speaker 1:So I'm loving how this conversation is going because we're kind of leaning into the human element of things. So I'd love to dive more into that, but we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. Hi, friends, it's me again and I hope you are enjoying this episode. Don't miss the sixth annual Aggression and Dogs Conference, happening from September 26th through the 28th 2025 in Charlotte, north Carolina, with both in-person and live stream options available. Whether you're a seasoned behavior professional or just diving into this work, this is the premier event for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of dog aggression. This year's speaker lineup is packed with world-renowned experts, including Suzanne Clodier, kim Brophy, trish McMillan, chirag Patel, sarah Fisher, leslie McDevitt and so many more. Topics span from cutting-edge research in behavior and welfare to hands-on strategies for working with aggression in shelters, veterinary clinics and client homes. Join us for a weekend of powerful learning, community and connection, including what will be a legendary cocktail party hosted by Chirag Patel and yours truly that will be streamed live for our virtual attendees as well. Spots fill fast every year, so head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to reserve your spot and check out the full agenda. Whether you're going to attend in person or from home, you'll be part of a kind, welcoming and supportive global community committed to helping dogs and their people. You can also get your conference swag, as we are happy to be collaborating with Wolf Culture again this year. Check out the show notes for a link to get your favorite t-shirts, hats, hoodies and more. Just for listeners of the podcast, wolf Culture is offering 15% off your order. Use the discount code BITEY at checkout. That's B-I-T-E-Y, like in the bitey end of the dog. I also want to take a moment to thank one of our wonderful sponsors this year Pets for Vets.
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Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Jacqueline Drake. We have been talking about dog to human aggression cases and we're going to dive a little bit into the human aspect of things. Jacqueline was touching upon it before we took a break, but I guess the question I have for you what are some of the most significant impacts you see on your clients when their dog is displaying aggression, either towards their friends or family or to themselves? What are some of the things that you find difficult to navigate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of emotions and heartache that can come with dogs that display aggression towards humans, whether it's to their own guardian or to other people. And again, I think I said this in the beginning you know the hard part that I hear all the time is oh, but I want people to see the dog, that I see everything was great. And so then the statement they'll make is why can't it be like that? Still, what happened? Why is this happening? So it can be really heavy for the client and a lot of times we get I get at least a lot of jokes about oh, you're kind of a therapist at the same time and while I'm not, and there are certain boundaries to like what we'll talk about it is super important to acknowledge the human side of it, because without the dog guardian, like, we aren't training those dogs, we're not working with them I mean, unless you're obviously like in a shelter but the human is the other half. So we have to really take time and I will ask a lot of times. I've gotten more comfortable with that in this stage of my career where, for instance, I have a client right now with a husky who is newly adopted and resource guarding and resource guarded with one of her children. You know her kids are older but still you know I will take time to say, but still I will take time to say so.
Speaker 2:I want to know how Steven is feeling about that. Does he seem apprehensive of Fido now? Do you feel like was he upset when it happened? Does he still play with Fido? Because I want to know that piece of it, because that will determine what we're doing in the future, but it'll also determine kind of prognosis as well, because I think we definitely need to acknowledge too, for both guardians and the kids or anybody else involved, that it's okay if that trust gets to a point where it's so broken that we need to look at different things. There's lots of different options for each case. But again, the human part of that, of what's your bandwidth? How do you feel emotionally? Do you want to fix this? How far do you want to go to fix this? I think it's super, super important.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm so glad you brought up considering how the human relationships are, Because sometimes we forget about that. I had a case similar to what you're describing, where the parents had gotten the dog as a therapy dog for their child and then the dog started to bite the child that they had originally gotten the dog as a therapy dog for and they weren't able to see clearly see that you know the child was like.
Speaker 1:I don't want this dog, you know. But the parents are really, yeah, we want to keep the dog because they, you know, invested in and all this. But it's hard, you know. You have to empathize with everybody the dog, the parents and the child, because everybody has their own viewpoints, I'm sure in the case, but unfortunately the parents weren't seeing it, so sometimes that's part of our job is really expressing the concerns as well as helping them see the big picture of that case.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I would say with that I'm really thankful for family pause because, similar to separation anxiety, I personally am not a parent, I don't intend on being a parent. I'm a really cool auntie. But you know, I think when we get into expectation versus reality and kind of dabbles in a little bit of parenting and what we're expecting or not expecting of the kids with their interactions with the dog, when it comes to aggression cases, sometimes I will try to talk to them, but if I feel like you know it's not really coming through, I love to kind of divert them and I have some colleagues that specialize in it. They're certified through Family Paws and so I'm a big advocate of like let's get you the help you need, and so sometimes those cases do better. With someone that is a Family Paws educator it comes across a little bit different because they specialize in that aspect.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, and we work with friends and colleagues all the time that specialize in things, and so shout out to Jen Shryock, who runs familypawscom. If you guys are listening in, you want to check out a great resource on all things dog to children.
Speaker 1:Yes, babies, kids, yeah absolutely so on the human side. Let's take a little dive into how much do humans impact the dog's behavior. Let's say it's in the home and maybe it's somebody approaching the dog's guardian and the dog displays aggression. When that happens Because that's a big question we get right Is how much am I influencing my dog's behavior? Or I think he's just trying to protect me, or I think he's doing this just out of spite or whatever? So you have all these different thoughts. What are your experiences there? How much do we need to consider that influence of what the person is doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think obviously, like I said, you know, the human side of it is super important. So what they are doing in that moment to respond to the dog or just respond to the situation, it can be critical. I think of a case actually, just like you were just saying, where the dog sitting in mom's lap and then any other family members that approach, you know the dog's growling, it's now escalated to potentially lunging. And that's always my first question is like so what are we doing the person approaching? What are they doing? What are you doing at that moment with the dog? And I think, even though we were just recently talking about like feeling calm and feeling matter of fact, like I've gotten away from, if you just exude calm, then the dog will feel calm. I don't necessarily teach that, but it's more so. Okay, dog is growling, lunging at person approaching. We are now yelling at that dog.
Speaker 2:For me that diverts to hey, this is actually kind of a safety issue because for the dog, they're learning that verbal punishment occurs when they give warning and I don't want you to shut off that warning system and so that's how your response and your behaviors and your actions are going to influence this process, and a lot of times I'll refer to that as taking the batteries out of our smoke detector. We don't do that, we wouldn't want to, and so a lot of clients will really be able to process that a little bit better, rather than coming to them and saying, well, you can't be mean to Fido just because he's being mean. Really getting to the reasons why we want to be really careful and critical about how we respond and I think that plays into like one part of the instruction or advice that I give a lot for that specific scenario, if we're going to approach the dog so that was also another question I asked is why are we approaching the dog? Are we just like coming up to talk to him or pet him? Are we just coming to sit by human mom and talk to her? And he's doing that?
Speaker 2:And so it came up that, oh well, he hasn't gone potty in a while, so we're trying to get him up to go potty, and so two things with that. One can be okay. Yeah, if you guys are all going to leave the house soon and you need to make sure he's pottied, we can do that. But let's do it differently. Let's stand across the room and call him away instead of approaching.
Speaker 2:Or the other thing which I a lot of times comes up is just like we're good, just leave him be, like if he's comfortable, he probably doesn't have to go potty, so we can just leave him be. We don't need to poke the bear in that moment and aggravate him, and I think in that case too, based on the case details, I think he's just comfy, he's just on mom's warm lap and doesn't really want to be bothered or pestered. We are probably trying to facilitate too much with him and so he's saying no, thank you, and we can totally heed that and say great, no problem, we won't bother you, or we'll try to call you across the room and see if that works better.
Speaker 1:Excellent advice. Again, our consultant brains doing the detective work. We'd be thinking about all the other questions we'd want to ask you know, is your dog in? Pain. Is there anything medical? Causing it not wanting to get up Right.
Speaker 2:I think what I love too is like you'll ask a question and for me, like I'll ask a question and they'll say something, and sometimes my clients are like what? Because I'll make kind of like a face, like I can't hide it.
Speaker 1:I'm like no.
Speaker 2:I just thought of a few other things I want to ask you now based on that one answer, because it's you know we're going through the weeds of trying to figure out what's happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that happens to me so much I have to actually jot notes to remind myself because, the question will come up, and I don't want to interrupt their stream of consciousness. They're telling me something. I'll write a note, but that also cues them like what's wrong here.
Speaker 2:Why is Mike writing a note here? I always laugh when I have some clients that are like peering over and they're like well, what did you write there? I'm like I'm not hiding anything. We'll come back to it At a better time. I want you to continue giving me that feedback.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you mentioned the common reason for not yelling at your dog, which is, you know, you don't want to remove that warning system. You don't want the dog to stop growling. When that's a great or a trainer, let's play this role a little bit where they're like, well, it'll stop the barking, or it stops the growling when I yell at them. So it's working. Or punishment does work, which, by definition, that's the definition of punishment.
Speaker 1:It does work, or if I do X, y or Z, it'll stop that. So what's your response next? To another reason other than we don't't wanna suppress that warning signal, but what are the? Other reasons that you might give.
Speaker 2:There's quite a few things that I tend to use for explanation. It just depends on how deep that client is like okay, but more more reasons. I really wanna understand this. So obviously we don't want to shut off our warning system. The other thing is, yes, punishment will work, but then you get that false positive. You have a really nice, quiet dog that will let the person come really close and then we get into a direct bite. That would be one thing. Another thing too is to me it both increases the anxiety and stress for the human and the dog when we're yelling, and it's really hard and I always say this with clients it's so hard.
Speaker 2:We're human and so we might immediately go to yelling. Especially what I see a lot is we're in public and we're really embarrassed. You know, if our dog goes to bark at anybody, even like one bark and we're immediately hey, you know. And yanking on the leash and I'm like, hey, barking is information, just remember. You know that that tells you where you're at in your lesson. Do we need more space? Do we need to take a break? Has it been too long, those kinds of things. So trying to help them realize that I have a client that'll joke about needing like a straitjacket when they're training so that they don't like instinctively yank the leash, or same with having tape on their mouth so they don't yell at the dog. And I always say, just like your dog, it's going to take time for you to alter your behavior. So while you stand here with me for the next hour and your dog might do something and you yell, it's okay. You know the fact that you even pause and go oh, dang it, I didn't mean to do. That is great. But I think, with emotions on both sides to me, what I always explain is when that dog is exhibiting aggression towards a person, if we are then yelling or punishing or adding something to it, to me that kind of asserts how they feel. They were already feeling really negative and they were adding more negative. So we're not really helping to influence that root cause, which is really the center focus of doing reward-based training and trying to stay away from punishment is. It's like holding a beach ball underwater. You know you'll do it for a while, but it's really hard and then at some point it's going to pop up and it might even pop up with a bigger wave than you had in the first place. So it's.
Speaker 2:We want to make sure that we're really getting to why the dog is exhibiting this behavior and try to alter or fix that, instead of looking at the surface level behaviors. I think there's a graphic. I don't know if any one person did this. I know that Jenny Efimova from Dog Minded she made a graphic like this years ago, early in my career, and I used to show it to clients all the time. But it's the iceberg analogy. You know, we have the tip of the iceberg that you can see, which is your barking, lunging, growling, attempted bites. What you don't see is the underneath the bottom of the iceberg, which is all of your emotions, learning, history, genetics, all those things. And so, as seasoned professionals, when we come in, that's what we're already focused on. People are like look, you know he's lunging, he's barking. We're like, yeah, but let's talk about why, what has gone on. Let's fix the reason why, instead of focusing on just yelling at the dog or punishing them. In that moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that beach ball analogy is really good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just kind of holding it and suppressing it down, I love that, yeah, you're struggling to hold it underwater and at some point you're going to get tired and it's just not going to work well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because, especially when you're looking at negative balanced emotions or the dog's just not feeling well or safe in the environment. One of the other kind of segues the conversation goes to is what I can never say no to my dog or I can never Right goes to is what I can never say no to my dog or I can never right. And when you think about the differences you know a dog jumping up to grab a sandwich off the counter. They're not in a negative balance of motion typically, in that moment.
Speaker 2:Right, they're not experiencing fear.
Speaker 1:They're not afraid of the sandwich that's up there, so saying no to them there might have a much different outcome than if you say no to a dog that's just trying to protect themselves from getting yanked off a couch because they're a retired racing greyhound.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Right. So there's a much different potential for a negative consequence and adding to already a negative balance of motion when we use something that's a negative layered on top of another negative right yeah.
Speaker 2:I love that example of like the stealing the sandwich, because I feel like that's always what immediately comes up of like okay, so you're saying you know, at no point should I be basically directing my dog or just letting them run the house, letting them be crazy. And I think what I pivot to and what I immediately thought of is I have an orange fluffy cat at home who is I call him, my sour patch kid and he actually is my counter surfer. So immediately when I'm done cooking he's up on that counter, he's whole body in the sink trying to get whatever he can. And obviously for me as the human, you know, my anxiety and kind of immediate upset is like sanitary right, like I don't want you on that specific counter, I don't want you in the sink Also making sure he's not eating things he shouldn't. And so even me, as a seasoned professional, when I brought him home as a rescue and he did that, I'm like, hey, you know, get off the counter. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, use your trainer brain, you know.
Speaker 2:And so what I have started to do, I have to hold myself accountable and look at the antecedent or the thing preceding what he does, which is I would end up, you know, rinsing and leaving all my dishes in the sink after making food, and so of course he has a smorgasbord of stuff sitting in the drain that he can munch on. So after any meals or meal prep, that behavior has completely extinguished because I wipe the counter down with Clorox wipes so that there's literally no smell and no little things left, and I clean the sink out right, load the dishwasher. If I don't feel like doing that right, I at least rinse all the dishes clean out. I just have those little baskets that catch all the crud from dishes and stuff. I at least like dump those in the trash and you'll see that even if he does jump up, he'll realize very quickly and get right down.
Speaker 2:So then I'm not stressing about him lingering or looking for things, but that's kind of always what I pivot to. It's. It reminds me of, like you know, when you're about to start a sports game and everybody puts their hands in right. So you put your first hand in and you're like no, no, yelling at your dog. And then you get another hand where they're like okay, but what if they counter-surf? And then you put another hand and you're like if they counter-surf.
Speaker 2:You got to set them up for success.
Speaker 1:I'll add another hand on top of that. You could have an orange tabby. I have an orange tabby too.
Speaker 2:Oh cool, they care. Yes, yes, no, it's not part of their vocabulary, especially orange tabbies. Yeah, I mean cats are. I think they get a lot of labels, like our dogs, and I'm learning a lot of the like you know, oh, you can't, you can't do anything with cats. You can't train them. Oh, they're very trainable, but they have different motivations and different things that get them going.
Speaker 1:But yeah, oh, yeah, oh yeah, definitely. So for the dog pros that are listening in now, let's get into, like, maybe an advanced case or a really complex case you've had. Can you think of something where you had some takeaways from? So think of something recently worked on, or maybe in the past, where you were like, wow, this is something that I haven't seen before, I just got some new insight on, or I just feel like this is the case I've learned a lot on. Bring us to that.
Speaker 2:Goodness, yeah, I mean, I've been doing this going on 13 years, so there's a lot of cases that I feel like every time I have a lesson with anybody, I come home like with 30 light bulbs of like wow, next time I'll do this. Or, you know, next time with that other person I can implement the same thing. I can implement the same thing, I think. Again, just coming back to the creativity in each lesson, we have to look at if those protocols are working and how to get creative with each dog and one dog I'm thinking of gosh I forget his breed, I think he was a sheepdog maybe and significant human aggression. He's probably the one dog and I'm always transparent with my clients where I'm like he makes me hold my breath a little bit. Something's going on His dog guardians. They were very different in their views of traditional vet care and traditional diets, and so finding treats for him took some time, like things that we could use to motivate him, in addition to their home setup being one that was really open, and so with him, we had to get really creative, and their dad actually built like a gate system in the front of their house where it was similar to what people put on, like their back wood decks, where the gate will just like roll open and roll close. So it was really convenient for them. But I had to get creative, in that he didn't love being in a crate and so to do some exposure sessions we'd have the gate up he was also on leash and we would ask him to go into a playpen on cue and then close that and I would kind of walk around beyond the gate. So it's not really necessarily a you know A to Z kind of explanation. Give clients ideas based on their preferences for their dog, for raising their dog, as far as diet and set up to keep everybody safe. I think sometimes you're going to have dogs like him that need a lot of different options, and he ended up being one that we worked with outside in his backyard. We had him in the playpen with a leash and a muzzle where I would eventually get to enter into the living room.
Speaker 2:The rolling gate system I often think about, like with any case, we're kind of coming in, as you know, like having a magic hat where we're trying to pull out all these different ideas and kind of display them to the client as far as like, here's all the things we could do. What do you think is going to work for you? And I think that's where that rolling gate came into play.
Speaker 2:He comes to mind because, again, he presented very adamant that he did not want me in that house and he would like to land teeth on me, and so I had to make sure to give them a lot of options for physical management for when I would come and if anybody else came to the house, depending on, basically, his mood at that time, because sometimes they'd be like, oh, penn, and he would just look at them like no, I don't want to go in there right now, and so then it would be like okay, let's take a break outside and come back in and try Penn again, or being on the leash. So I would say that's one case that really stuck with me because it really forced me to get all of my creative bones going on how I can meet them where they're at but also help them move forward.
Speaker 1:So tell us a little bit about your secret there in terms of getting clients, because I've had clients with a significant amount of environmental management and lifestyle changes, so you seem like you have a little knack for that, if you got somebody doing sliding gates and all these things you've been mentioning, so do you have a? You mentioned kind of meeting them where they're at, but do you have any other tips on that?
Speaker 2:I think, what I always propose to them. It's very easy to inundate them with here's all the things you need to do, and I think it's I don't wanna say like a salesperson, but you're almost making sure that you're giving them the perspective of how this will work for them. You know, if you have this gate, this rolling gate that's permanently there I know, like you've told me, you have a wood shop in your garage and you're really creative If you have this gate up, that makes it so much easier. And we know there's for sure a level of safety there. It's not, you know, a plastic gate that he can knock over. You guys can see he's jumping up on it, he's a big dog. So we can cement our safety routine and make it really easy, for anytime I show up, you just slide the gate shut. So I think, kind of pitching to them how much easier everyday life would be if they did that, and also relating the protocols to not only their practice with aggression and human visitors or whatever it might be, relating it to daily life as well. If they say, oh well, he's a really messy eater, it's like, oh well, we're also training him to go into as well. You know, if they say, oh well, you know he's a really messy eater. It's like oh well, we're also training him to go into this pen. You know, you could contain him to that spot. You could use this for his meals too. So I think pointing out to them the ways that it's going to benefit them alone, as well as doing it for their dog, is really important.
Speaker 2:I think this happens a lot. I think of just like. A side example is I see a lot of cases with dogs on electric fences and there are a lot of consultants with hard limits. They won't even work with a client with that. I kind of come from the place of we don't all have hundreds of dollars. Like I've built a privacy fence at an old house and it was expensive and that was years ago, so we don't always have the resources to put up a privacy fence. A lot of HOAs don't even allow it.
Speaker 2:Understandably, people want freedom to have their dog and just roaming around the yard. So a lot of times you know when I pitch about hey, this is why you know I wouldn't recommend an e-fence. They'll be like well, what do I do then? And so like most recently, a person that lives on a whole bunch of property. I'm like, hey, let's try a trolley system.
Speaker 2:And they didn't even know what that was. And you're like, oh yeah, this will be super nice, like you can just put a little nail in by the back door and you can hang the hook there and anytime she goes out put her on the hook. It's hands-free, but she's also contained and even in the summer, when the summer comes around and you're out gardening, you don't have to worry about her being on a tie out that's dragging on the ground and messing up your garden. So again, just making sure to really know, as the consultant, what their life is like, what their routines and home setup is like, and try to make sure to hit on. Hey, this is actually going to benefit you in your daily routine anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I appreciate you sharing that epiphany, because I'm also having an epiphany too. It's just that interviewing multiple guests for this show. It seems that many of us start out, we focus on the dog side which is obviously the most important side when we're getting into these cases.
Speaker 1:But we think about okay, what's causing the issue, what's the problem here? And we start to just get it. We start to see the same things over and over and then usually at around the 10-year mark so you've been doing this 13 years, but around that one side I see somebody that's been doing this 10 years or more they really just start focusing on all the human dynamics. That's the difficulty in these cases and the more interesting thing to talk about is all the human stuff and like talking to the humans and how to navigate those things and the skills to convince somebody. And you mentioned that the salesperson hat we have to put on.
Speaker 1:And it's so interesting to me that, yeah, we get the dog stuff, especially if you're focusing on one particular aspect. You see so much of the same stuff but the humans not so much. So keeps us on our toes. So before we wrap up, I'd love to give you a chance to kind of chat about what you're working on now, where people can find you, as well as just mention that Jacqueline is going to be giving the dog to human section of the dog guardian course. That will have been released at the time of this episode. So go check that out, but tell us more about what you got going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so at this point in my career I've worked with a lot of dogs and a lot of people, whether in shelters or directly in their homes. I think the shift over the next probably five years is more wide scale teaching, kind of teaching the next generation I feel old when I say that, but I'm not Of you know bringing in apprentices and kind of coaching them. I recently started up Patreon, so almost all of my social media handles are training by Jacqueline, but with Patreon it's behavior brain, and so really my focus is more so on having more resources to the masses, whether that's trainers and consultants or dog guardians as well. I'm looking at building some more free resources for shelters in my area. In conjunction with that, I'm finishing my master's degree, so I have some really exciting research that I'll have data on in May that I'm really excited to share with the community, and I definitely want to continue in that world as well.
Speaker 2:It's been very, very interesting and I think I'm fortunate to have kind of a leg up, because I came into the academic world with so much practitioner experience and knowledge and so I think that really helps with building certain studies, kind of what we're recommending and what people are dealing with. So, yeah, just switching gears into more mass teaching, obviously being a part of the course, which is really exciting, and even doing case reviews. So I've done that a couple of times since becoming a mentor with aggressive dogs, so having other trainers say, hey, can I meet with you to discuss this case and get some ideas of what you would do or what I could do differently. I think I have a lot to offer, being this far into my career on basically that mentoring more than direct teaching.
Speaker 1:So I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for being a resource to the aggressive dog community and beyond, and I definitely wish you well in all your future ventures. Thank you so much for coming on the show, jacqueline, and I hope to see you again in the future.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Mike. It's great to be on the show.
Speaker 1:It was a real pleasure chatting with Jacqueline and hearing her insights on navigating the emotional and behavioral complexity of human-directed aggression in dogs. Her thoughtful approach and dedication to both the dogs and the people who care for them is a good reminder that this work is as much about compassion as it is about technique. And if you're ready to go deeper into understanding and helping dogs with aggression, visit AggressiveDogcom. Whether you're a professional or a dedicated dog guardian, you'll find everything from the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program of its kind, to expert-led webinars, informative articles and the Aggression in Dogs Conference happening from September 26th 28th 2025 in Charlotte, north Carolina, with both in-person and virtual options. And don't forget to check out our Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes, which are solo shows where I walk you through real-world strategies for issues like resource guarding, fear-based aggression, territorial behavior and more. Just hit, subscribe or head to the show notes for more info. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay wild, my friends.