The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
From Frenemies to Friends: Intra-Household Aggression with Christina Young
If you've ever experienced the heartache of your dogs fighting under your roof, you know how this situation can leave you feeling helpless, frustrated, and deeply conflicted. Take heart – there are solutions, and this episode offers a comprehensive roadmap to understanding and resolving these challenging dynamics.
Christina Young, certified dog behavior consultant and co-instructor of the Aggression and Dogs Real Life Solutions course, brings her wealth of experience to this nuanced conversation about dogs who struggle to get along with their canine housemates. She reveals why communication breakdowns lie at the heart of most conflicts, explaining that many dogs simply haven't developed the skills to effectively express their needs or read another dog's signals appropriately.
The episode delves into practical considerations that dramatically impact dog-dog relationships – from the importance of age gaps (ideally 3-4 years between dogs), to the reality that same-sex pairings (particularly females) often present greater challenges if conflicts develop. Christina unpacks how resource guarding, play style incompatibilities, and even breed-specific communication patterns influence household harmony.
For guardians currently navigating tension between their dogs, Christina offers concrete management strategies including proper use of baby gates for "separation without isolation," teaching alternative behaviors during high-arousal moments, and creating designated safe spaces where each dog can truly relax. She emphasizes proactive reinforcement rather than reactive corrections, showing how timing your interventions before stress signals appear creates new emotional patterns around triggering situations.
Whether you're considering adding a second dog or struggling with existing conflicts, this episode provides compassionate guidance for creating a home where all your dogs can thrive. Follow Christina's methodical approach to introductions, management, and training – because every being deserves to feel safe in their own home.
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In this episode, I'm joined by the insightful and talented Christina Young as we explore the challenging and often emotional topic of inter-household dog-dog aggression. Christina and I dig into the root causes of conflict between dogs living under the same roof, including the role of communication, breakdowns, resource guarding and the importance of structured introductions. Breakdowns, resource guarding and the importance of structured introductions. We also discuss how factors like age, sex and even the individual history influence canine relationships and what dog guardians can do to create safer, more harmonious homes. Christina brings a wealth of experience and compassion to this conversation, offering both practical tools and heartfelt support for those navigating these difficult situations. Christina is a certified dog behavior consultant and professional canine behavior consultant. She co-instructs the Aggression and Dogs Real Life Solutions course, hosts the Aggression and Dogs Mentor Sessions and is a certified training partner through the Karen Pryor Academy. She brings a holistic perspective to her work, combining advanced education with real-world experience, including her own multi-dog household and background in competitive dog sports. She's also the creator of the new Aggressive Dog Guardian course, a much-needed resource for guardians facing complex behavioral challenges.
Speaker 1:And before we jump into today's episode, a quick heads up If you're looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, head on over to aggressivedogcom, because we've got something for everyone. For pet pros, there's the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available on aggression, packed with expert insights and CEUs For dog guardians. Check out Real Life Solutions, which I've just mentioned that Christina is a part of and I'm very proud to have her as part of the course and if you want full access to expert webinars, live mentor sessions and exclusive discounts, the Ultimate Access membership is just $29.95 a month. You'll also find info on the 2025 Aggression and Dogs Conference happening in Charlotte this September. That can all be found at aggressivedogcom. Check it out after the show.
Speaker 1:Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. This week we are going to be talking about dog-dog aggression, a focus on inter-household dog-dog aggression, but we're going to be talking about dogs that kind of just have issues with other dogs, and I couldn't think of anybody else better to bring in than Christina Young, who specializes in this topic and is a mentor for AggressiveDogcom, and so we're going to be doing a deep dive into all things dog-dog complex. So welcome to the show, christina.
Speaker 2:Hi Mike, Thanks for having me Excited to be here.
Speaker 1:It's great to have you back again because this is your second time on the show, so I'm looking forward to going deeper into this topic, because we talked about it a little bit last time but now we have some more advanced things. But we're going to start with some of the basics, because I know some of our listeners they might be struggling with their own dogs in the home, so let's jump right into. You know what are the most common reasons for dogs having conflicts or fights with each other, and this can be again in the home or just in general.
Speaker 2:Typically, when dogs are having conflict with each other, it stems from a lack of communication skills. So a lot of the times the dogs just don't have the skills on how to effectively and appropriately communicate with each other and then we get conflict between them because one dog might be trying to communicate ABC where the other dog is not responding to that or not reading that appropriately, and then we might have aggression or escalated conflict between them because they don't know how to navigate through the scenario that they're in together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely one of the most common factors and we even see that between dogs and humans. Right, it's a lack of communication skills.
Speaker 1:What are some things? If we start looking at dogs that we're trying to bring home or introduce to the home and you know, if you have a dog that's already got lack of communication skills with other dogs, what are some things that can actually compound that? So you have a dog that has a tough time telling another dog, for instance, go away from my bone. But in the home, what do you see as some of the most common reasons for conflicts to occur?
Speaker 2:Resources are a huge one, so they might want to have some peace when they rest and they might want to have access to a person or a bone or a toy. That's a really, really common one. The other super common one is play style or play skills. So one of the dogs might really want to play a lot, especially if they're a puppy, and the other dog might be older or might not be interested in playing with the dog or might not be interested in playing in the same way as the first dog, and then we can get conflict between those as well.
Speaker 1:In your cases, what do you see? So you mentioned resources as being the top reason. What are some other top reasons? You mentioned play, but in your experience, especially in your area of the country, what do you see as probably other than resources, as the top reasons for these cases, for people to reach out to you?
Speaker 2:I think the number one reason why people are having conflict in their homes is because the dogs aren't speaking kind of the same language. So one dog might be of a certain breed type and another dog might be of a different breed type and they communicate very differently, they play differently, they interact differently, they have different desires from their canine relationships. So one dog might want to wrestle and play and cuddle and share a stick and the other dog might just want to go along and sniff and pee on things together. So we have different drivers for the dogs. The dogs want different things, that are their canine relationships. And then we put them in a house together and we say, oh well, they'll just work it out. And quite often if they're not of a similar kind of mindset or not similar desires from what they want from other canines, then we will get conflict between them.
Speaker 1:So if you were to coach a client that's thinking about getting a dog they have a dog already and they want a second dog or a third dog what are recommendations, sort of proactive measures that they can take to avoid conflicts from happening in the first place?
Speaker 2:The first thing they can do is make sure that the dogs they already have have some really good foundational communication skills. Then we don't bring a second dog home that might not have the skills and then we're trying to train everybody all at once. So the very most important thing you can do is try to ensure that our existing dogs have those skills, and then the second piece would be to choose a dog that has similar drives or similar desires for how they want to communicate with other dogs. So, for instance, sticking within your breed type is often a good idea, sticking within a similar size is a good idea, and choosing dogs that have a lot of things in common already, rather than dogs that are very different.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned, you know, communication deficits. Is that something that can be taught? Or let's say, you're a person, you have a dog and it's just your solo dog, but like, how do we get that to happen, you know, especially for already adding a second dog. Or you know we don't have the resources of a bunch of other dogs around us. What can we do to help these dogs learn these communication skills?
Speaker 2:Oh, so many things. So we call them communication skills because they are a skill just like anything, and dogs can learn how to communicate more appropriately or in a more effective way, and things that we can do are go train outside, so our dogs can learn communication skills without actually interacting with other dogs. We can train, for instance, on a walk with dogs that are walking down the other side of the street. We can train outside of a dog park. We can train outside of a pet store where dogs are coming and going. There's lots of places where we can go and work on communication skills at a distance without actually interacting with other dogs.
Speaker 1:Tell me more about what that looks like for you. So if you're out with a client, what are some of the tangible skills you might be working on? Or what does it look like if I was to go with you on a session like that?
Speaker 2:It depends on the dog. So some dogs are afraid of other dogs, Some dogs are excited by other dogs. Some dogs are completely neutral when it comes to other dogs and we want to set them up so that. So, for instance, if we have a fearful dog, instead of them having to feel like they have to bark and lunge and scream at the dog across the street or on the sidewalk in order to make distance, we can teach that dog how to ask us for help, how to go and sniff, how to do other behaviors, that then we help ensure that those behaviors are effective. So, for instance, if we have a fearful dog that's used to kind of staring at other dogs think of a typical border collie I'm just going to stare at you to try to create space. A golden retriever coming at us might interpret that as hi, I would love to play.
Speaker 2:So we need to teach our border collie there how to go and sniff a stick or go pee on a tree Not that we want them peeing in our house later on, but we want to teach them how to communicate that they don't want contact, that they need space in more appropriate ways, and one of the most common ways we do.
Speaker 2:That is, we encourage the dog to sniff, maybe by dropping a cookie, by bouncing a cookie off of their shoulder so they sniff the ground. If every time they feel uncomfortable by an approaching dog, we help them learn to drop their head and sniff the ground. If every time they feel uncomfortable by an approaching dog, we help them learn to drop their head and sniff the ground. They see the dog coming. We help them drop their head and sniff the ground and that works. We ensure that then the oncoming dog doesn't encroach upon their space. Then the dog will go. Hey, actually this feels a lot less icky if we want to anthropomorphize a bit there. But the dogs typically don't want conflict and they'll choose kind of the least path, of least resistance if we show them what those paths are.
Speaker 1:It's good advice. So it sounds like a process of desensitization, just gradual exposure to other dogs at a distance, combined with reinforcing desirable behaviors around the presence of other dogs. So, really just capturing, sniffing the ground or peeing on the tree, as you mentioned.
Speaker 2:Yeah, does that sound about right. It does Capturing, but also we can use food to create the sniffing. We can help them choose those behaviors, because some dogs won't simply just do them on their own. We need to get in there and help them choose those behaviors that we're hoping to see.
Speaker 1:So creative use of location of the reinforcer sounds like excellent, excellent. So it sounds like that's going to be a great approach, for if somebody is introducing their new dog, right, it should be, and that's what I always recommend. It's just let's don't do it inside the home.
Speaker 1:Go outside go for that parallel walk. Let's get the dogs used to each other at a distance and gradually decrease the distance. Typically I'd prefer a professional be supervising that, because they can see the body language, the communication that somebody that doesn't recognize those things might not be able to see. So is that something you do? Do you get a lot of proactive? I want to introduce my dog to a new dog, or is it always after the fact?
Speaker 2:It's usually after the fact. I do get some proactive, but it's usually people who've had conflict in the home before and now they want to avoid that. But we can still do it. If you're having conflict between two dogs in the home, we can do a little reset where we separate the dogs for a week or two weeks or longer even, depending on how severe the issues are between the dogs. But we can do a little cortisol holiday. We can reset the dogs, separate them inside the house in some way. There's lots of ways to do that and then we can reintroduce them as though we were bringing two new dogs together and start their relationship off, building up new memories, new pathways, new reinforcement histories by doing those parallel walks.
Speaker 1:Let's move into that area now. So we're getting let's use a theoretical example We've got a couple of dogs they've just met outside. They seem to be doing well and you know, no real agonistic or aggressive responses from either dog. They get a quick sniff, you know, but where they still haven't really done a lot of active engagement with each other, seem to be communicating well, right. So we get them in the home. What are your next steps? Do you typically recommend, okay, let's keep them separated for now and we'll gradually introduce them over some time? Or do you kind of take a case by case where, like, these two are great with each other, let's just let them go? What do you do in those scenarios, or maybe even your own home?
Speaker 2:It's really case by case. So if we have a very social dog with great communication skills and we brought home another dog and we've done their parallel walks, they've done some bum sniffing. I'm a big fan of the three second rule. So when we let them sniff, if they're sniffing each other, you count one 1,000, two 1,000, three 1,000. And if they don't move on themselves, we assist them in that. So we've got those good communication skills. They can sniff a tree where another dog has peed together. And we're in the house now and things are going well. We can evaluate that and say, yeah, these two get along really great. There's no history of issues inside the home. We can probably just let that go, whereas other dogs we might take it much more slowly.
Speaker 1:So what would that look like for the dogs we need to take it more slowly with? We see some little signs of tension, or maybe one of the dogs is saying I need a little bit more time. So they're showing some avoidance behaviors. They're kind of weight shifting away or showing some stress signals from the other dog. What do you recommend in those cases? So no conflicts have occurred yet, but you're seeing, well, this dog needs more time.
Speaker 2:How do you recommend the management in the home? I'm a big fan of baby gates, x-pens, that type of thing. I like separation, not isolation. So if you live in a very small house or you have very large dogs, perhaps we don't have a lot of options, but it's really nice to be able to have both dogs in our living space at the same time but separated. So we want them to get used to being around each other but not necessarily having access to each other. We might use covered X-pens or baby gates with a cover on top. If the visual stimulates too much, we can use double baby gates across the doorways. But it's nice if they can all be kind of in the same space while learning how to just relax near each other without having access to each other.
Speaker 1:And when they start to get together, let's say we've got them separated like that, we kind of doing the you know I actually don't like this term crate and rotate. You know it's a term we used for many years.
Speaker 1:But I actually kind of I don't know, I feel uncomfortable because that kind of assumes excessive crating in some circumstances. But anyways, I think the listeners get what I mean. When crate and rotate, we're giving the dogs plenty of enrichment, exercise and attention when they're not in a managed space. I think that's probably the better way to say that.
Speaker 1:But yeah and it's tough. We can empathize with some of our listeners that it's really tough when you have two, three, four multiple dogs that we're having to separate and kind of give them each their individual time. So let's say we've been doing that system for a week or two and it seems like everything's going well. What are your recommendations for some of the initial? Let's just hang out Now we're in the house together, you guys don't need as much separation. What should that look like?
Speaker 2:Before we go there we want to do a risk assessment. If there's very low risk, you can proceed a lot more quickly. If there's a bite history, if there's a size disparity, if we've decided that there's a higher risk to one or more of the dogs or humans in the picture, we want to take it very slowly and kind of play it by ear with the situation in front of us. So before we go together in one space we want to make sure the dogs have some foundation skills. Can each dog recall? That's number one. We want to say, oh, I don't like the looks of that scenario happening in front of me. Maybe one is really excitedly sniffing the other's bum and the second dog is giving some stress signals and saying please go away, Please go away, I'm uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:We want to make sure that if the first dog doesn't disengage themselves, if they don't respond to that communication, we need to help them by recalling them away. So if a stressed dog is asking for space, we want to make sure they get the space if they ask in a very polite way, and that polite communication will then be reinforced and be more likely to happen again and our dog won't feel the need to escalate. So recall is number one, and it can be recall inside the home. It doesn't have to be. You need a perfect recall away from rabbits and deer and all the things outside. Simply recall inside the home needs to be taught as a primary skill, for sure.
Speaker 1:What else would you say to watch for in those? So let's say we're hanging out, dogs are in the living room, we're just sitting on the couch, dogs are just chilling out. Anything else we should be concerned about in that environment or to just kind of keep an eye on. So think of your average pet guardian out there wondering what should I look for? What are some red?
Speaker 2:flags that I should be aware of. Resources are a big one. The first time they're hanging out in the same room together. Maybe pick up the toys any bones, ensure that there are multiple sleeping spaces. We might even use leashes or tethers on each dog. So if we have two humans and two dogs, that's great. Each human can have responsibility for each dog, whether they were holding the leashes or just kind of having them there ready to use.
Speaker 2:If we need to create separation between the dogs and I think the most important thing is choosing when. So we wouldn't choose a time to have those dogs together when we're expecting, say, someone to come to the door. If we know an Amazon package is five stops away, that's not the right time because that's going to be a higher arousal situation. If we know our partner or our kid or friend or whomever is going to come by and knock at the door not the right time, that's going to be a high arousal time. So we want to choose lower arousal times of the day or situations.
Speaker 2:So the dogs have had a walk. They've all had some enrichment. They are feeling just chill. It might be time for a nap, but not overtired. We have to be careful that we don't tire the dogs out too much so that they're very tired and maybe less tolerant or they just want their space as well. So picking the time of day and how much we've done with the dogs is key to helping the dogs be set up for success when they're together in the same room.
Speaker 1:And I want to back up a step here too. We had talked earlier about introducing the dogs outside the home, and then you'd mentioned leashes inside the home as well, and I'm assuming you mean drag leashes if nobody's holding the leash. What else should we be aware of when it comes to leashes and introductions?
Speaker 2:Oh, leashes can have a lot of extra stuff associated with them so dogs can become frustrated. These leashes for a lot of dogs are so unpredictable. Sometimes they can pull and get to the thing that they want. Sometimes leashes don't let them. Sometimes, depending on who's holding them, leashes might inflict, you know, a correction or pain or all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:So when we have leashes on dogs that we are and we're doing intros, it's very important that we've kind of addressed those skills or managed them in a way that they're not going to affect the introduction and we want to try to keep those leashes loose. So the leashes are there in case we need them. But we think we won't need them Right, if they're kind of a backup, they're not meant as a primary steering of the dogs or a primary means of controlling the dogs. If we think we need the leashes on them to control the dogs, the dogs likely aren't ready to share spaces together. They're just there, especially inside the house. We made a judgment call that wasn't quite right, where, if something happens and the dogs get themselves into trouble, it's nice to have a leash to grab instead of a dog. We don't want to necessarily grab a dog that's in high arousal and worried and anxious or frustrated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a tough one because I think muscle memory and a little bit of nervousness or nerves can cause somebody to naturally tighten up on the leash because they're worried about it. And I don't blame anybody. You know, if you're worried about what your dog might do, you tend to tighten up on the leash. You're getting ready to pull your dog away from the other dog. So I know one of the things. I don't know. You might do this too, but I coach my clients on how to handle that leash so it doesn't get tight.
Speaker 1:And I play the part of the dog, sometimes so like I'm your dog, I'm holding the leash and let's see if you can keep this thing loose while I'm about to go over and sniff another dog, or something like that. So I think it's important practice to do and typically if I'm doing a dog-dog intro, I'm handling one of the dogs. Sometimes it's the client's dog and sometimes it's the dog they're trying to introduce and I think it's the dog they're trying to introduce. And I think it's also helpful because they can mimic what I'm doing, like happy tones, loose leash, keep it short, recall the dog away and they can just copy exactly what I'm doing. And it really can be helpful for them to see that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, do you do kind of similar techniques with your clients in those intros?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I like to see a J in the leash. So we want to see. If the leash is straight, it's tight. So sometimes terms can be subjective. So if I say the leash should be loose or let's try to keep the leash loose, that might mean different things to different people. So I instruct them. I want to see that dip in the leash and if I don't see the dip, that means the leash is too tight in the leash. And if I don't say the dip, that means the leash is too tight and we might practice.
Speaker 2:For instance, well, a lot of guardians are coming to us because they have anxiety about this, because they have a history with dog conflict themselves. If people have never had conflict or they don't have any history of that or anxiety around it, they're likely not calling us. If they can watch us and they can see how it works and see that it's successful, that's going to help set the guardians up to be able to relax and breathe. I often tell people are you breathing? Let's take a deep breath, and we can practice as well with neutral dogs. So if I have a dog of my own, practice as well with neutral dogs. So if I have a dog of my own, I might practice having them introduce a dog to my dog.
Speaker 2:Where I live we have this wonderful dog park and I'm not a dog park fan. There's too many variables for my anxiety inside a dog park. But when we go there we can practice letting our dogs meet other dogs through the fence and practice those leash skills in a very safe, controlled way. So we've got social dogs. They're coming up to the fence and our guardians can practice with their dog in a place where worst case scenario is their dog gets upset and then we can do some damage control and help our dogs feel better. But it's not as risky as a face-to-face greeting where everybody's teeth are involved.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and you brought up such a good point too about previous experiences in these cases, and we really have to think about the human side, because if somebody's experienced fights in their home, that's probably one of the worst things I think people can experience is when their own dogs are fighting and the noise that it makes or maybe the injuries that happen or the injuries that happen to the person trying to break up the fight. That can be traumatic.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I find that if somebody's experienced that in the past and then they're trying to introduce a new dog maybe you know they've, for whatever reason, they don't have the same dog or dogs anymore, but they get a new dog there's a lot of nerves there.
Speaker 1:So, they're going to have a tough time in that greeting. So we have to empathize on that side as well. So I'm glad you brought up that point of really thinking through with the client. So let's talk about the pairings a little bit more. So, because we're still talking about let's get these dogs in the home, we've talked about communication skills get these dogs in the home. We've talked about communication skills, making sure we're managing resources, going slow, how to handle the leash during the introductions. But if somebody's being super proactive and I know we mentioned breed about you know play styles, interaction styles, interests and you know breed specific tendencies. What about the sex of the dog? Or maybe even the health? Let's dive into some of the medical or it's not all medical, but let's dive into the biology.
Speaker 2:I should say stuff.
Speaker 1:Do you recommend any pairings? You know female, female, male, male. If you already have a male, should you get a female? What is your usual advice on that?
Speaker 2:My usual advice is to ensure the dogs have three to four years between them, so they're different ages. So developmental stages matter a lot to dogs. If we have two adolescents in the home, if we have two dogs who are both, you know, 18 months old and we put them in the home, well, their little brains are at a stage where they're not able to process emotions all that great. So they're in a developmental stage where they're not able to process emotions all that great. So they're in a developmental stage where they have bigger feelings about things, less ability to process and react thoughtfully to emotions, and we put two of them into house together. Well, that's going to be a lot harder than, say, we have a really great, stable, mature, four or five-year-old dog and now we bring home an 18-month-old dog. So age is one thing I look at. Once they're older it's not as critical. But we want to think about those developmental stages to puppies. If we have a six-month-old puppy and we bring home an eight-week-old puppy, well, neither puppy necessarily has great communication skills yet and now we put them together and we can end up with some trouble because they're learning together but they're not necessarily learning the things that we hope they want to learn. That we hope they'd learn.
Speaker 2:Gender does matter as well for some breeds. It is well documented that same-sex aggression occurs in certain breeds commonly. So if we have those breeds it's just a kind of a roll of the dice. Not all dogs within a breed are going to exhibit the common traits, just like not every Labrador likes to swim, but most do, or many do. So I typically say male, female. If you're an experienced dog owner and you want two females, that is the hardest pairing. So if we have aggression between two dogs, if we have a lot of conflict between them, the hardest pairing to fix, to undo all of that conflict and to have a harmonious relationship is two similarly aged females. Just things to think about. Not that two females can't get along, it's just if you get in trouble that's not ideal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, and typically in my experience it's when the females do start fighting. The fights are often severe and they can escalate fairly quickly and again, it's not in every case. I don't want to scare any of the listeners. I might have two females in the home. There's plenty of cases where the dogs are getting along just fine. It's just that when the conflicts do start, I do find that the severity is high. You know, kind of holding a grudge, so to speak.
Speaker 2:For my personal experience. I have lots of dogs, I love having a house full of dogs and I brought home a one and a half year old intact male American Eskimo, german Spitz type dog from the SPCA. No known history other than he was seized in an abuse case and at home at the same time I had several dogs. I had two neutered males, a spayed female and I had an intact male as well. So when I brought them home we did the parallel walkings, we did all the gradual introductions, but the little Spitz intact male had a serious issue with other intact males and to this day he does not like my male. They're all neutered now but to this day and this is eight years ago he's turning 10, the little spits turning 10 in a couple months. To this day he gets along great with everybody. I use him for socializing. People bring their puppies, people bring their dogs. He's wonderful, but he still doesn't like my other male that was intact when I brought him home.
Speaker 1:There's a grudge there, yeah.
Speaker 2:And they get along fine. They're not in a crate and rotate. But I do have to manage certain high arousal scenarios because I know if there is conflict it'll be the little spits directing it at my other male.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about spay-neuter real quick, because it's not super common in certain locations of the world because there's a higher percentage of spay-neutering going on. But we have listeners all over the world and so some places many of the dogs are intact. So do you have any insight into, let's say, in my experience it's typically one of the big issues is an intact male, or intact female too, but intact males more so anywhere, Because all the neutered males are. Especially if an intact male goes into like a dog park, it's really interesting for them or different.
Speaker 1:And it can cause some conflicts, and I've seen that in the home dynamic as well. So do you have any thoughts on that or insight?
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm not someone who thinks all dogs should be spayed and neutered. For sure. In fact, my next dog that I'm planning to get in a few years, I don't intend to neuter him and we will work with it. However, when we live in a place like where I live up in Western Canada probably 99, pulling a number out of the air here 99% of the animals are altered. When they do see that intact male or smell that intact male, that's a novel, exciting stimuli and so novelty is arousing, Novelty is exciting.
Speaker 2:And when dogs aren't used to smelling those things, they can get a little bit more intense in their greeting and maybe a little bit less polite because they really, really, really want to go smell that and explore that and experience that.
Speaker 2:And then the intact males going, whoa, why is everybody all up in my junk? Literally, and they might get a little protective of their pieces back there. So I think a lot of it stems from two things. One is that it's a novel smell for a lot of dogs. So the more dogs aren't neutered, the more dogs will have exposure to that and the less novel it'll be and less arousing and exciting. But also, when we have intact dogs they have bigger feelings, like testosterone is going to give you bigger feelings in theory and I'm not a biologist or vet or anything, so Other people might know a lot more about this but those intact males, I find we just need to do a little bit more help with saying, hey, you know, this is how we're going to interact, this is how we can greet other dogs. So we just might need to do a little bit more training, a little bit more skill building around, helping them communicate appropriately with other dogs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. I think the novelty of it is a problem for some dogs, because if you look at some areas of the world where let's take that 99% figure you might go down to like 70% or 50%, in some parts of the world there's plenty of intact dogs. You don't see the conflicts there. So you have to wonder okay, is it? Because dogs are like, oh, you've got your parts and I don't, and life goes on as normal, because I've seen that before in my life? Right, so something to consider. So we're going to take a quick break before we get into some of the deeper dive stuff. Some of the pros might want to stick around and listen in to some of the more advanced cases we're going to be talking about in just a moment. But let's take a quick break and we'll hear a word from our sponsors and be right back. Hi, friends, it's me again and I hope you are enjoying this episode.
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Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Christina Young. We've been chatting about dog-dog aggression and now we're going to get into some more of these advanced topics, so I think one of the things we can start off maybe is on the topic of emotions in dogs and what are common emotions or underlying systems in place that might be fueling these conflicts. So what are your thoughts on that? I mean, obviously, fear of another dog or strange dog can be another one, but do you have any kind of top of mind thoughts on emotions in these cases?
Speaker 2:Yes, well, we know dogs feel emotions and whether or not they feel them to the same complexity that we feel we don't really know, complexity that we feel we don't really know. A lot of times people will attribute our own human emotions to the dogs, which can help us empathize with them a little bit. But it also it's important to just take a step back and think about what's going on for those dogs. So the emotions that I commonly see in dogs would be frustration or happiness or anxiety, and anxiety and fear can encompass a whole lot of things that we might see in our dogs or see causing behaviors in our dogs. Those emotions drive behaviors. So what is causing our dogs to act the way that they are? Are they afraid? Are they a distance seeking? Are they just wanting to play and don't know how? There can be lots of different reasons or emotions behind it, and having kind of an idea of what's going on will help us choose a path forward for that dog.
Speaker 1:We often see frustration as sort of one of the fuels for aggressive responses. What are some frustrations dogs can experience in the home, especially a multi-dog home and let's say it's even a small home? What do you commonly see that sort of builds this and one of the dogs says you know, I'm really getting annoyed or upset, and yeah, I'm throwing out labels here, but about the other dog in the home? So what are things people can do to avoid that?
Speaker 2:We want to ensure all of the dogs have places in the home where they can rest, have safe places where they can rest and not be bugged by other dogs or kids or other humans anybody just somewhere where they can absolutely rest and feel safe, and I think that is one of the key problems. So a dog might become frustrated when they're sleepy or they just want to chill out and chew on a toy or chew on a bone or a chew toy, and every time they go to relax, another dog is jumping on them or trying to share their sleeping space or trying to share that bone or that toy, and they never really just get that decompression time to settle down and just be relaxed in their own home. Just like us, we would like to go home and feel that we can just chill out on the couch or chill out in our office, wherever, and just relax and do things that make us feel good, and dogs need that same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I call it the safe zone and I'm glad that many professionals are now using that concept or have been for some time, and it's really important because even in your owner-directed aggression cases so you have dogs that have issues with the person in the home or somebody they're trying to resource guard away from their other person. That is important for the human also to have a safe space. So not only should the dog have a safe space, but the human should be able to say I need some time away from the dog.
Speaker 2:Those are rare cases.
Speaker 1:But it's so important for any animal human or dog to just have a place where they can be unbothered so you don't have that frustration, that anxiety, that stress right.
Speaker 2:And it's important, just like we mentioned before, to consider the human part of this team, because the humans often aren't considered nearly enough when we're looking at dog training.
Speaker 2:We're called in to train the dogs, but the humans are part of that team as well and if the humans are stressed, if the humans aren't getting that rest time, then the team isn't going to be set up for success and able to learn and able to improve or progress as quickly as well. So I love that you brought that up, because it's important that all of us have that time and if you need to just go have a bath or go have a shower without your dog in the bathroom, it's okay to do that. A lot of humans feel guilty when we don't spend all our time with our dogs or when the dogs aren't both with us all the time, and addressing that like it's okay, dogs are okay. If we teach them how to be separated, not isolated from us or from each other. That's a good thing. That's a really important skill to teach them and it's a very important skill for the humans too. It's okay to not have a dog all over you all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's okay to pee in peace. Then that's what you're saying yes.
Speaker 2:Unless you have a Doberman, then you can't.
Speaker 1:So let's talk more about the human side there. That element sometimes can be a significant factor in the cause for the conflict. So let's say you have a dog that is guarding their owner as a resource away from the other dog. What are some things that humans are doing in those cases that can exacerbate the behavior, kind of set that context up, and what do you do to resolve that?
Speaker 2:A lot of the guardians will assign our own emotions to our dogs, like jealousy. Sure, dogs can feel jealousy. It's kind of an anxiety, but it's not necessarily the same as us humans will feel it. So, for instance, if our dog is beside us and we're petting them and they are with us and they're now guarding us, and we get up and say, hey, you're doing good, here's a cookie. Stay here, kiddo. I can go pet this dog over there, that's okay. The dogs necessarily aren't going to feel anxiety about that if we help them learn that it's okay that we pat the other dog or cuddle the other dog. We want to create patterns for our dogs that we say, when I go give this dog a cookie, good things happen to you as well and a lot of owners struggle with that. So a lot of owners struggle with I want to be able to cuddle both dogs. I can't cuddle both dogs at the same time. That makes me feel icky, that makes me feel like I'm favoring one over the other. We see it a lot when we have an older dog in the home and that older dog might not want the puppy around a lot. So now the guardian wants both dogs with them, but both dogs aren't wanting to be together. So what do we do? Teaching people that it's okay not to be quote, unquote, fair like just because one dog gets one thing, it doesn't mean the other dog needs it too.
Speaker 2:In my home I currently have three dogs. One of them sleeps in bed with us. The other two either sleep in their crates or on the couch, wherever they choose, but they don't have the option of sleeping in bed with us. Just my 10-year-old male does, and that's okay. The dogs don't care about that. That's not unfair. They're not going to get jealous because we've set them up so that, hey, this is where you go, you sleep here, this is the routine, this is the habit. You get cookies in your crate, they're crate, trained, or the couch is comfortable. It has some nice dog blankets on it. This is where good things happen, and they don't all need to have access to you equally.
Speaker 1:You can have different rules, just packing up there a little bit too. When we're talking about when we reinforce things, or when a client should be looking to say, oh, when should I cuddle? When should I pet this one, when should I give this one a treat, that can be really confusing because, let's face it, most clients are pretty good at saying no or hey, I can see growling at the other dog, knock it off, which can be communication, and sometimes that's all you need is just say hey, I don't appreciate what you're doing there, but, however, that doesn't teach the dogs what to do.
Speaker 1:instead, of course, as we know, in all of our aggression cases we need to help them learn what to do. I find that the most difficult part is when to do those things, when to reinforce your dog, whether it's petting, acknowledgement, praise, food, toys, play, whatever we're using for a reinforcer. I find that one of the most difficult things is when to do that, and I'll give you an example. You know my dog, castagna.
Speaker 1:She's a chilean street dog and we have a chilean street cat named renardo also, and if there's food around, she's never done anything to the cat and she's a lovely, sweet, very sweet dog, but she's she will give him the eye and sometimes we call it bullying him, him Like she'll do the paw over his back kind of thing, just nothing concerning kind of way. But it's still Bernardo doesn't like it. So we try to discourage that. But we also want to reinforce alternative behaviors. So like when he jumps up on the bed, the animals are, they could be anywhere in our house at any time, so, but when she jumps up on the bed she's already there and we're like if we're eating in bed or something like that, she will give him the look, right, she'll like give him the look, and you know she's going to start doing that bullying behavior.
Speaker 1:So the timing of it's really important. So what I've done over the last you know, few months is just start reinforcing her. For the moment, he's jumping up in the bed and she just instantly notices him, and that's worked, because now she sees him jump up there and she looks at me like yeah, he's up here. And so that timing, though, is not easy, and I think some of the listeners are probably agreeing like so how do you coach clients on? Like okay, here's a red flag, here's not, this is good, this is not. Here's what to look for, here's what you need to avoid. That part's tricky. So do you have any tips there? That not here's what to look for.
Speaker 2:Here's what you need to avoid. That part's tricky. So do you have any tips there? That's very tricky and that actually is one of the more common issues when one dog is already on a bed or a couch and the other jumps up.
Speaker 2:In your case, cat and dog the trick is to be proactive, not reactive. So if we're reacting once the animal is stressed, so once they're going oh, I don't know about this then the oh I don't know about this emotion is now part of how we do that behavior. So jumping up on the bed is now packaged with I'm not sure about this. That's a part of how that whole behavior is going to happen. And so if we can be more proactive, we say, okay, I know, when Fido comes in and they jump up on the bed, that is very likely to happen.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to proactively say, hey, if you notice the cat or the other dog and you just before you've gone, oh, I don't know about you. I'm going to say, hey, here's a cookie. Or hey, come on over here and get some pets. Or do you want a piece of my toast? If we can be proactive in it and catch it before they're all feeling those negative emotions, then getting up on the bed and then feeling interested or curious or hey, what's in it for me up here. That becomes how that little behavior package happens and that emotion becomes a part of it. So ideally we catch it before the dogs are anxious and before there's conflict between them to help them set those patterns.
Speaker 1:And in that arrangement I guess we can call it is, we're really reinforcing a desirable alternative behavior. Because we could argue, if the dog's not experiencing any negative balanced emotion and seeing that particular stimulus cat, dog, other animal jumping up or about to jump up then we technically at that point aren't counter conditioning. We could be classically conditioning though at the same time often are. But it's interesting to kind of think through.
Speaker 1:It is all right if the dog which we some, let's say, icky feeling we're seeing the cat jump up, we'd be classically counter conditioning if we are pairing that particular event with food. But we could also reinforce that desirable alternative behavior of, hey, you just see the cat jumping up but you're not going after that or doing anything else undesirable. So there's a couple things in play there, but we often don't get that deep into the science of it with our clients right Kind of talking through this more for the dog pros listening in.
Speaker 2:I think for the average guardian if they're seeing stress. There's already been stress for some time. So when we think of being more proactive before there's conflict, before there's already been stress for some time so when we think of being more proactive before there's conflict, before there's visible stress the average person even probably a pet pro there's still likely to be some stress there before we can actually see it and process it and recognize it and then act on it. So even if we're saying be proactive before we see those signs, we still might be counter conditioning too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So proactivity is a great way to frame it, you know, because when we're proactive about really any aggression case, you're going to, nine times out of 10, avoid the problem behaviors we're seeing. So let's shift here a little bit into prognosis. So when we have difficult cases and let's face it, many of these cases don't always have a successful resolution or what the client would wish for, because they're animals just like people. We can't.
Speaker 1:And the analogy I use is just the divorce rate in the US. Right, if we're so good at modifying behavior in human psychology or psychiatry or therapy, then we should be able to do it with dogs. But we're not actually in either world and we might see, you know, sometimes that 50%. There's quotes. You know what's the divorce rate? 56, depends which country you're in, but it's, it can be high. So same thing that can happen with dogs is that we can't always make them get along, especially if they've never gotten along at all. It's like you know, if you go on your first date on a dating app, it turns out terribly. You're not going to expect the two people to live together. So why would we do the same with dogs, right.
Speaker 1:So in that regard, in the prognosis, what are some things that make you say, okay, this is probably not going to work out. We've tried everything we can. We've gone through all the typical processes you go through. Maybe you've consulted with other professionals, you know, let's say you've done the works veterinary, behaviorist, you've done meds, you've, like tried everything. What are your indicators that say we need to explore other options?
Speaker 2:Risk factor is one. So if there is a big size difference between the dogs, if there is a history of damage or even psychological damage, where one dog is feeling appears to be feeling really stressed, quite often that's a significant risk. So we're going to look at how much conflict is in this home, what's going on and how is that affecting the quality of life and how is the management that we're having to put into place? How is that affecting everyone's quality of life, including the guardians?
Speaker 2:Every being has the right and I firmly believe this, not a privilege, it's a right to feel safe in your own home. And if we have tried all the things and either the humans or the dogs aren't feeling safe regardless of whether they are safe, they're not feeling safe in the home after trying all the different things then it's time to look at other options, especially if there's children or vulnerable people in the home, if there's conflict and someone isn't feeling safe or maybe really isn't safe, that ties back into the risk assessment and that's key to making sure that we get one or more dogs out of the home, in whatever way that might mean.
Speaker 1:What are some criteria for rehoming? Let's say that the client has the option to rehome one of their dogs or they have the resource availability. Is there some criteria? Something you say, oh well, it would probably be okay for this dog, but unethical for this dog. Do you have some guidelines there?
Speaker 2:I have strong feelings about rehoming aggressive dogs with bite histories not all bite histories, certainly, but if the dog poses a significant risk to the community then I would think twice about rehoming that dog. It's one thing for a dog to live in a home where they already have people invested emotionally, financially, time-wise. Someone loves that dog and they're going to put the time in and we can put a lot more work into that scenario. But to take that dog that might they're going to put the time in and we can put a lot more work into that scenario. But to take that dog that might have some significant risk factors to the general public and say I'm going to now attach you to a random human who may or may not understand what they're getting into, who may or may not follow the safety procedures, that becomes, you know, maybe this dog isn't rehomeable, maybe we rehome the other one or we might pursue a behavioral euthanasia for those dogs as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good advice and good thoughts on that too. It's not always an easy decision. Well, it's never an easy decision.
Speaker 1:I should say but in terms of the availability of that resource for finding another home can be really difficult because there's certainly no shortage of these dogs that need homes and very difficult decision for a client that has had this dog, especially for many years can be really really tough and challenging. So let's shift now to something more of a positive note before we end, because we like to end more of a positive note here end because we like to end more on a positive note here. Can you think of an advanced case with a positive outcome? You've worked lately. So walk us through something maybe where it was a really tricky case but you worked your magic and you know kind of give us some of the nuances of that too, if you could. What worked for you, what didn't, what are some things you discovered in that case?
Speaker 2:some things you discovered in that case. I actually just received a text update from a client that makes me so happy for one of these cases. So this client has multiple dogs already smaller dogs, 25 pound dogs, two of them both reactive. One has significant health and reactivity issues. Bite history, humans, dogs. He's very lucky to live with the human that he lives with. They love him and keep him safe and do things really really well for him.
Speaker 2:But it is not easy then to bring a puppy into that home, and they did so we started working and planning before the puppies were actually even bred.
Speaker 2:So we started working and planning before the puppies were actually even bred. This owner is so proactive, but we have brought this. She's about 40 pounds and she's about 10 months now. We brought the puppy home at eight weeks and the puppy and this little reactive dog actually are playing, like they're engaging in play, which we didn't know if that was going to be part of the journey or not. It might've been more of a management scenario for a very, very long time until the older dog was no longer here, but they're actually playing and that makes me so happy because what that means is that we help the little dog feel safe and we helped incorporate the puppy into his life in such a way that his confidence grew, his social skills grew and now he's actually playing, which is such a nice thing for a little scared dog to be able to experience those emotions, to be able to experience those behaviors in such a happy way.
Speaker 2:Now Christina, you know I'm not going to let you go until you tell us a little bit more about how you did that or some of the nuances.
Speaker 1:In that case, that made that successful.
Speaker 2:Yes, firstly, the owners are extremely committed and extremely committed to management and taking things slow. So puppy comes home. I have been working with the reactive dog for some time. I still can't hold his leash. He's not a dog that trusts people, he trusts his people, that's it. And so we would bring the puppy on parallel walks. I would handle the puppy's leash and the guardian would take the leash of the reactive dog and we would just do no contact walks up until the point where the reactive dog would sniff things that the puppy sniffed and then they would sniff the puppy and we really enforced those two to three second rules Little sniff and break away and think about it. Little sniff, break away and think about it Until they were able to just go for side-by-side walks and sniff things together. That was all done outside of the home before the dogs were allowed shared spaces inside the home. Inside the home we had X-pens and baby gates and covers and all these things, so both dogs could be included but separated inside the home until they were ready.
Speaker 1:How long did that take? Would you say that process?
Speaker 2:Puppy is 10 months old now. They are now at the point where she can be inside the house at lower arousal times, but she still has a drag leash on her because the older dogs have great recalls and that's something that was reinforced many times in preparation for the puppy and the puppy is getting there but she has a drag leash on her just in case and we don't put them together inside the home yet at high arousal times meal times, someone coming home, that type of stuff, but they can be in the yard together off leash.
Speaker 1:Excellent, so really still good management in the home, which should be done anyways, right, you should be doing that with all dogs to avoid issues in the first place. So that's a wonderful outcome and that's kind of the pros and cons of puppies, right Is that they? You know they call it puppy license, so they can kind of with some dogs, not all dogs, but with some dogs, they can get away with more.
Speaker 1:You know, in a sense of the older dogs like oh, you're just a puppy, sometimes not, though, so don't take that as a false positive. If you're listening in, sometimes it can go wrong because the old dog's like get this puppy away from me. But it sometimes can go really well. I had a similar case to a Cairn Terrier that the clients had gotten a new golden retriever puppy and you know, the puppy's smaller than the dog at first, or maybe about the same size, but then same thing though this grumpy old Cairn was like.
Speaker 1:I don't want you near me at first with so slow introduction, but then, of course, the golden gets bigger and bigger. But they got along wonderfully because, well, golden puppy was just the sweetest, softest, squishy thing and very playful, very social, came from good lines and it worked out wonderfully. They play well together. But it was this very similar, very slow methodical process to ensure that all of the first impressions were good impressions for the two of them. So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Do we have time for another situation?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I don't want people to think that we can only be successful if it's bringing home a new dog. Another situation I had recently was two small dogs that were already fighting. They were fighting over resources. They were fighting. When people came in the door they were fighting. If one dog left and came back, they were fighting. If the cat ran they would redirect onto each other.
Speaker 2:There was lots going on for those two small dogs that had been living together, for I think they were their same age males two and a half and under 10 pounds. But these dogs were scrapping many times a day, every day, and it was becoming really hard for their guardians to then process that or live with that and the quality of life of the two dogs. Everyone was always on edge. When's it going to happen now? Who's going to grab which dog and hopefully not get bit?
Speaker 2:So we just separated those two dogs a little bit. We taught them some skills, we taught them some stationing, we taught them some operant behaviors sit down, hand touch, go to a bed. We taught them a bunch of skills and once we gave those little dogs appropriate outlets for their energy and mental stimulation and some boundaries and saying you know, when one dog runs. Your job isn't then to chase them, unless it's an invitation to play. You know, go to your bed, get a cookie, or come over here and jump in my lap, get a cookie. You have a different job to do when one dog runs or if the cat runs and those two dogs are now living magically together wonderfully, after just a few sessions, and we've actually paused our package because they don't need me anymore. The dog's doing great.
Speaker 2:That's amazing I know it's so happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's amazing what you can do when you teach environmental cues like that. When this happens, do this instead and I'll pay off way better for you. Such a good example of, you know, reinforcing desirable alternative behaviors. So, speaking of which, I'd like to kind of talk about the Guardian course. So one thing that's going to be launched, probably right before the launch of this episode, is the Aggressive Dog Guardian course. So it's going to be geared. You know we have the Aggression and Dogs Master Course. That's geared for professionals, but Christina is our Dog Aggression Specialist in the dog guardian course. So tell us more about what you're working on there, or what's in there now, actually, because at the time of this episode it'll be up and running.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so exciting. My portion is the dog-to-dog aggression part, predominantly inside the home or another off-leash type scenarios where you might be at the dog park or hiking with your dog, that type of thing where dogs are allowed to interact more freely, no leashes necessarily involved, and in there we talk about why the conflict happens, what to look for, but also kind of a step-by-step if you're thinking about bringing home a dog or if you have conflict between your dogs in your house, what are the processes that I would go through, what are the skills I would teach and how to teach those so that you can help the dogs feel safe and be safe at home and to reduce all that conflict so that we can reintegrate them and have everyone just hopefully living more harmoniously and with a lot less stress in their lives.
Speaker 1:Amazing and you've got step-by-step modules. We have what we call modules, which are individual recorded video lessons in there for anybody on a variety of different conflicts as well as management and safety and how to resolve these issues. So I am very much happy that you are doing that for us and have created this part of the course. So looking forward to that, and is there anything else you want to give the listeners to look forward to? That you're working on?
Speaker 2:I am the person of many projects. I always have lots of stuff going on. Right now. I'm very excited about my deep dives where I work with people in small groups to do work on intra household aggression issues or other dog to dog aggression issues, and what I love about that is the community, so you get to meet other people that are going through the same thing you are and you get to cheer each other on and I am having so much fun with those and developing how those are delivered and how what kind of material is in those. And we're having so much fun with those and developing how those are delivered and what kind of material is in those and we're having so much fun and so much progress. That's kind of my new big project.
Speaker 1:Love it, I love it, and we'll, of course, link to those in the show notes. Christina, thank you so much for joining us again and we look forward to seeing you again in the future.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. It's always so much fun chatting with you.
Speaker 1:It was so wonderful to connect with Christina again and dig deep into the nuances of dog-dog aggression within the home. Her thoughtful and compassionate approach offers a lifeline to guardians navigating these tough situations, and her commitment to helping dogs and people feel safe and supported really shines through. And if you're ready to go deeper into understanding and helping dogs with aggression, visit AggressiveDogcom. Whether you're a professional or a dedicated dog guardian, you'll find everything from the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive program of its kind, to expert-led webinars, informative articles and the Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from September 26th through 28th 2025 in Charlotte, north Carolina, with both in-person and virtual options. And don't forget to check out our Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes, which are solo shows where I walk you through real-world strategies for issues just like resource guarding, fear-based aggression, territorial behavior and more. Just hit, subscribe or head to the show notes for more info. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends. Bye.