The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
The Power of Nose Work for Canine Behavior and Enrichment with Nancy Reyes
What if you could turn your dog's natural sniffing instinct into a powerful tool for behavior modification and enrichment? Join us as we explore this intriguing idea with Nancy Reyes, a dog training expert with over thirty years of experience. Nancy takes us through the captivating evolution of nose work—a sport initially developed to help shelter dogs that has now garnered widespread recognition. Together, we navigate the fascinating world of scent detection activities, ranging from tracking to barn hunts, and discuss how utilizing a dog's sense of smell can revolutionize your approach to behavior modification and enrichment strategies.
About Nancy:
With three decades of professional experience, Nancy Reyes is a dedicated dog trainer whose journey began with a childhood fascination for animals. Over the years, her passion for understanding and training dogs has only grown stronger.
Nancy's commitment extends beyond her professional pursuits; for the past 30 years, she has generously dedicated her time to working with shelter and rescue dogs throughout the Midwest. From providing training and evaluation assistance to fostering dogs in her own home, Nancy has truly made a difference in the lives of countless dogs.
In 2004, Nancy took the leap and established For Your K9 Inc., a thriving hub offering a diverse range of classes including Puppy, Basic Obedience, Agility, Barn Hunt, Rally, and Nose Work located in Elmhurst, IL. She has worked extensively with a wide range of behavior issues from aggression to separation anxiety. At the heart of Nancy's training philosophy lies the belief in nurturing the bond between people and their dogs through effective communication and mutual respect.
A seasoned competitor in various canine activities such as obedience and agility, Nancy currently competing in nose work competitions. She holds multiple roles within the canine community, serving as a Certifying Official and Certified Instructor (CNWI) for NACSW (National Association of Canine Scent Work) and a CPE (Canine Performance Events) Scent Work judge, and CWAGS (Canine Work and Games) judge.
She is an international speaker and presenter in the topic of behavior and nose work. Her travels have taken her to Japan and across the 50 states.
Furthermore, beyond her training expertise, Nancy is also a certified Mental Management Instructor, coaching dog-handler teams to achieve their performance goals across different dog sports.
Nancy’s motto is: Become A Student of the Dog
http://www.foryourk9.com/
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In many behavior change strategies in aggression cases, we often focus on what the dog can see or hear, but how often do we consider what the dog can smell and how that impacts their behavior? In this episode, I finally have the opportunity to chat with nose work expert Nancy Reyes, who has three decades of professional experience as a dedicated dog trainer, whose journey began with a childhood fascination for animals, she has generously dedicated her time to working with shelter and rescue dogs throughout the Midwest. From providing training and evaluation assistance to fostering dogs in her own home, nancy has truly made a difference in the lives of countless dogs. Nancy established For your Canine Incorporated a thriving hub offering a diverse range of classes, including puppy basic obedience, agility, barn hunt, rally and nose work. Located in Elmhurst, illinois, she has worked extensively with a wide range of behavior issues, from aggression to separation anxiety.
Speaker 1:Nancy believes in nurturing the bond between people and their dogs through effective communication and mutual respect. She's a seasoned competitor in various canine activities, such as obedience and agility, and currently competing in nose work competitions. She holds multiple roles within the canine community, serving as certifying official and certified instructor for NACSW, which is the National Association of Canine Scent Work, and a Canine Performance Events, scent Work judge and Canine Work and Games judge. She's an international speaker and presenter on the topic of behavior and nose work, and her travels have taken her to Japan and across the 50 states. She's also a certified mental management instructor, coaching dog handler teams to achieve their performance goals across a variety of dog sports.
Speaker 1:Nancy's motto is become a student of the dog, and if you're enjoying the bitey end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there's a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression and Dogs conference happening from October 11th to 13th 2024 in Scottsdale, arizona, with both in-person and online options. You can also learn more about the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues. I also have a wide variety of webinars, upcoming courses, videos and articles. I also have a wide variety of webinars, upcoming courses, videos and articles, all from the foremost experts in training and behavior. We are your one-stop shop for all things related to aggression in dogs. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. This week, we're going to be talking about nose work, and I have none other than Nancy Reyes here, who is an expert on that topic, amongst many other things. So welcome to the show, nancy.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1:So I want to jump right in because this may be a topic that might not be as familiar to some of our listeners and some might be deeply involved. So first let's start off like what is nose work.
Speaker 2:Well, nose work is a dot sport that was emulated from detection work. So back I think it's 2006,. Seven in California, jill Mary O'Brien, amy Hero and Ron Gaunt started working with shelter dogs to help them with enrichment in that shelter environment, and then they had some small classes doing nose work and so on and it became a little bit picked up there out in California and then in 2010, they started to take it on the road a little bit. People were starting to get interested. They heard all about it and they went to the East Coast. Then they came out to my facility in the Midwest here in 2010.
Speaker 2:And life has never been the same after that. It's just become this great, wonderful sport that all of us participate in. And again, it's Mimic's detection work. Obviously, we can't search for drugs or anything like that, like the detection dogs do, so they start with essential oils that we search for birch, anise and clove, so they chose those odors and that's what the sport's been based on. And here we are, quite a few years later and it's a huge, huge sport. A lot of people participate in it and it's been a game changer for a lot of us that are in the dog sport world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it sounds like it's really branched out quite a bit and there's an official association. Now right for nose work.
Speaker 2:Yes, Amy and Jill and Ron developed the National Association for Canine Scent Work, NACSW. Since then, they were the only game in town for a very long time, and now, you know, the other venues have picked it up the AKC, UKC and so on. So, yeah, it's huge, but there is an official yes, they are the official originators of the sport of nose work.
Speaker 1:And I got to dabble in one of those classes when I was out in Lake Tahoe. There was this beautiful dog camp there and there was a class for that and one of the instructors was showing, with the different scents you had just mentioned, and I thought it was fascinating because just watching those dogs work was a lot different, of course, than the work I do with aggression cases, and it had me thinking. So there's a lot of different activities dogs will use their noses for in the sense of us humans, like oh, let's go do this X, y or Z. So you mentioned tracking and drug detection and nose work. Can you just kind of give us a brief overview of like the different categories and when we think about that, that'll help us sort of wrap our mind around all those different categories, like, say, like somebody wants to do certain work, what would they be looking for?
Speaker 2:Sure, sure, with nose work we are looking for scents and we go to different environments, so that's one way where they can use their nose. Then there's also barn hunt, little bit more regular, in that the scene or the environment is pretty much the same. It's a certain square footage of area with hay bales in it and they're looking for a rat in a tube, so they get to use their nose there. The difference with barn hunt is the environment is pretty much the same all the time. Like in nose work, we go out to the outside inside vehicles and go to different areas. Barn hunt it's a specific space and this is how it goes, and tracking has been around for a very long time, even before nose work. You go and you find articles and you just follow. Human scent is what you're doing there and that's been around a very long time. The challenge with tracking obviously is always finding the space to do it. You've got to have a big field. The weather can be very challenging for folks to be out in the different elements, even though the tracking tests they're going to be held no matter what the weather is. But tracking has been one of the first set sports, if you will from many, many years ago. And then nose work has just made it easier for mostly everybody to do it. It's made it more available for the rest of us to do it, if those of us that don't want to be out in the field in the morning, walking long tracks and things like that. So it just made it more available for us to do.
Speaker 2:The other thing is nose work, all the other sports, agility, obedience. They are coming into our world. We are telling them what to do and this is how it goes In scent work, nose work, barn hunt, tracking. We are going into their world and I think that's what makes it so challenging, because they have such a better scent ability than we do and they're the ones that run the game in that one, which is hard for some of us that are used to controlling kind of what they do.
Speaker 2:So nose work becomes a little more challenging for the handler, the dogs. It's so natural for them, that's what they do. They sniff and they work. They use their nose all the time, every day, all their lives. It's the first thing they do when they're born, last thing they do when they pass, unless it's an illness that affects that particular sense, but most of the time, they're really great at scenting better than we can possibly ever imagine. So it's interesting that we try to control that sometimes and you still see that because we want to control everything. But the dogs, we go into their world. This is their game, not ours.
Speaker 1:I really love that how you put that. We're going into their world, and I had to be thinking about the different activities that many of us do with our dogs in some format, some sport or some activity in the ones that are, we're going into their world or versus they're going into ours. So it's really a lot on the activities and their senses, you know, and what they're able to use much better than us and we, as you know, humans being much more visual, are using our senses in that regard. So if somebody wants to, somebody listening in is like I've never tried scent work or any kind of exercise. What do you think is the easiest first step for them to be like all right, I want to do this with my dog Because I think it's suitable for all dogs, right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. It is suitable for all dogs. So ideally you want to find somebody who's teaching it. Ideally you want to find somebody who's a CNWI, because we start dogs a certain way and that is that instructor that's certified through NACSW. And the reason for that the way NACSW starts dogs on odor does make it available for all dogs. All dogs can do it.
Speaker 2:Some of the other ways people are starting dogs are directly on odor and unfortunately, when you have a dog that has reactivity issues or anxiety issues or anything like that, it's very challenging to make that odor important when the dog is worried about their safety and everything else. So unfortunately, when you start a dog that may have issues like that directly on odor, it causes a lot of stress for the dog. We take away their autonomy. The odor is never going to be as important as food and the way NACSW starts the dogs is. It brings out their natural.
Speaker 2:They start on food. They bring out that natural thing and if you make a mistake on food, no big deal and the dog's still going to want to eat, versus a dog If you scare them or they get worried or something happens on that odor. We've gotten dogs from other trainers that have done that and it's a tough gig to get them back to be okay with that particular order. So if you're going to start and your dog has any potential issues of anxiety, stress, reactivity, start with a CNWI the dogs that have no issues and are great. It doesn't matter how you start them, they'll be great.
Speaker 1:That's a really good point, because you might be listening in and thinking, oh how can you screw up nose work? You just got to let the dogs go sniff something. But then when you get those cases where it's easy to pair certain stimuli with other things in the environment, you got to be really, especially if it's something so different than what the dog typically would smell. You're like oh, there's that smell Like somebody's bad cologne or something you can't unforget it.
Speaker 1:For me it's peach tree schnapps. I had a really bad experience in college with peach tree and now I can't. You know, it's just so aversive to me, yeah and for me it's southern comfort.
Speaker 1:Can't even smell it now we're aging ourselves yeah, exactly a little bit so let's get into that behavior aspect and how we can help dogs with the behavior issues and how powerful nose work is you had mentioned earlier. You know it's such a natural behavior. You know, obviously smelling stuff for dogs is a naturally occurring behavior versus some of the other activities which may not be in their natural repertoire that we could be incorporating in an aggression case. So how would you start, like if let's say and you've done this a lot with dogs that have reactivity issues like what's the first thing to start with? Where do you start with? Like how can we help this dog feel better about the environment they're in?
Speaker 2:Right. So with dogs that have reactivity that's usually in many cases have anxiety issues as well is the first thing is safety. The environment should be set up where they can feel safe, which is one of the hallmarks of what NACSW does, where it's one dog at a time, one dog works at a time. All the other dogs in the class are crated, or if you're doing a private lesson it doesn't matter. The dog's by himself anyway. So that's the number one is make sure that that environment is safe for the dog, because if it isn't, it's going to be tough. So we've had cases where the dog at our facility too much, too much noise, too much. They can't handle it. So we then do a private lesson because the class setting might be too much. So it's very dog dependent. So you'd have to kind of see. So the first thing set up a safe environment for the dog, and safety is important because if the dog is too anxious, a lot of dogs, as some of you know, may not eat. In an environment that's worrisome or stressful, they won't eat, and so that's why when we start them, we start them on food so hopefully they feel safe enough to eat, because if they don't, then you have to back it even more. But let's say, the environment's safe, they feel good about it, they're eating.
Speaker 2:Then we start with food in a box, because it's pretty straightforward In an open box you put the food down in the box, the dog goes and finds it and just get him acclimated. The food down in the box, the dog goes and finds it, and just get him acclimated to finding food in the box, because it's not the norm, for most dogs aren't looking for food in the box, right? So you put that Once they start getting comfortable with easy, you put it down, the dog goes to it, so on and so forth, very independently of the handler. The handler is not really involved at this point. The dog's just going out there and looking for it. Then you can start moving the box and putting it where the dog has to actually look for it. So because, if you think about it, our dogs don't really have to look for food. They just have to go to the kitchen and go. Hey, it's mealtime, let's do this right. They're not hunting for their food like they would in a more rural setting or an environment where there are free roaming dogs, that they find food wherever Our pet dogs don't really have to do that.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting how some dogs some dogs are like I should hunt for this. Why should I look for food? It's usually, usually it's available all the time. So getting them looking for it and working out that, bringing in that natural ability to hunt and search for food, really important. So that's why we start them on food and we get them problem solving, which helps build confidence and autonomy and it helps calm it down. So if you want to start, that's the easiest way to start. You can start them in your home in a quiet setting. You can do a little bit of, you know, just introducing that to them and then as you progress, you can make the scent problem, you can move the food and you can make it a little harder as you progress.
Speaker 1:That so I want to just jump back to a few different things, just to clarify that when you say box, it could be anybody's like Amazon cardboard box with food in it.
Speaker 2:Okay, absolutely, and some dogs may have sensitivities to the box moving, so you could just use a lid like a shoebox lid, even though I don't know if they make those anymore.
Speaker 1:They don't detach anymore. I think, exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So, but you could put a low profile box and you could put that in there. It doesn't matter what you put it in, as long as the dog's comfortable putting his head in there, because you might have dogs that are a little sensitive to not wanting to put their head in the box, so you can adjust it, it doesn't matter. Okay, the goal is for the dog to go out and look for the food and hunt for the food. That's the first part of it. That is the most important part right, getting the dogs, because that's what builds a dog's autonomy and confidence and problem solving skills, which then really progress into helping with anxiety and helps calm the brain and it kind of gets them in a more natural state, if you will.
Speaker 1:Do you also talk to your clients about contra freeloading, where the dog is more likely to do a task that takes that effort versus just giving them the food? So there's been some studies on this in animals, of course, but do you mention that Be like this is going to be better for your training if we use that aspect?
Speaker 2:Right, absolutely. And in some cases some of the dogs that aren't really don't want to work that hard. You can definitely feed them their breakfast that way. You know, have to hunt for their breakfast and play that game with them in their breakfast. This is really great if you have a very active dog, young puppy that's active and busy. Having them search and hunt for their food in the morning will give you a nice little midday calmness, because it does help calm them down and just give them that mental exercise that is actually sometimes more important than physical exercise, right.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, and just to clarify on what it looks like when we're doing that. So like if somebody's just starting this out, when you say hunt for the food, is it just all in the box or is it kind of scattered about, or no, no, no, it's all one box right.
Speaker 2:Thank you for clarifying that. You put the food in one box and you move that box around where they have to look for it. Excellent, Got it Right Because early on there was a People were putting the food in all the boxes so it was errorless learning. Well, it kind of took away the hunting piece of it, right, Because it was not really hunting, because they were just looking for food. So the most efficient and kind of kicking in that natural ability take one box, put food, move it, have them look for it, eat it. Put more food, move that box somewhere else, put it in there and move it around.
Speaker 2:Excellent so the dog has to find it.
Speaker 1:Okay. And then one other question just to back up to. We were talking about safety and the use of food. So the dog's usually going to eat if they're feeling safe enough. What about the cases? There's just kind of that fringe, those cases that the dog's going to eat but not feel safe. So they can still be fearful and be like looking at something Sure. So they can still be fearful and be like looking at something Sure. How do you help clients? Maybe with that fine line, let's say they're still going to eat. They're like, oh yeah. So then we took it outside and we went to the park and he was still eating, but something went south on them.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, you definitely want to be able to, especially for clients like what that looks like when they're eating, if they're eating and stretched out and not really comfortable going into the box, and that's still not safe. So you want to look at the whole dog. You want the dog happily running and going to the food, and some dogs aren't super food motivated. So if they're not really foodie dogs but they like toys, you can do the same thing with the toy. Hide the toy in a box. Have them go look for it. Have the toy in a box, go look for it. Same, but the look should be the same. The dog should look comfortable and relaxed, not stretching to get the food. If their body language is compressed and tense, you need to back it down where the dog is happily running looking for the food, right, okay, and this is where. If that doesn't look like that in your house, don't go anywhere else with that.
Speaker 2:Got it Okay, that doesn't look like that in your house, don't go anywhere else with that Got it. And some dogs go really fast. So at our facility we've had dogs come in. They were a little worried but by the second or third round they were fine. They were able to get more comfortable really quickly and do the work, and some don't. You know, some take a little bit longer.
Speaker 1:And then, once the puppy finds, or the dog finds, the box, do you put any kind of marker on that? Or is it just you're allowing that first activity to happen?
Speaker 2:Yep, you're not marking it, you're not anything. You could say good dog, which is technically a marker anyway. But yeah, don't need to mark it Because, think about it, the dog, it's immediately getting rewarded for finding that box because there's food in it or a toy, right, it's immediate reinforcement. Like they find it, boom, they get that reinforcement immediately.
Speaker 1:And we can argue that the dopamine hit happens before that. So the activity of going to seek for that box right.
Speaker 2:Exactly right and that's what you want that excitement to do, that work and go in and search. And with some of the dogs that have had anxiety or have anxiety or reactivity, that is such a beautiful progression because you see the dog just blossom so quickly. Back in the day when I worked with a lot of the behavior cases, we tried to do agility and some of the other sports that were available. But agility is a pretty highly aroused sport. So for dogs that have reactivity issue or a lot of anxiety, agility probably wasn't going to be a great option. So nose work gives them, it's calm, it's more relaxed, they progress so quickly in many cases.
Speaker 1:All right. So now we've got a nice foundation of how we start with this let's talk about that reactive or fearful dog and we start, we get this nice baseline, we start getting them engaged in using their nose and how to start searching for things. How do we start to transition and be like how is this going to help this dog out in the real world with their issues? So what would be like a next step? Like you're working with a client, their dog maybe has some reactivity issues to, let's say, other dogs out in the world, and we've got them engaged and starting to get the. Both the client and the dog are really starting to understand this foundational aspect of nose work. What's the next step to start transitioning?
Speaker 2:So the reason we start on the boxes because it's the boxes are a cue like this is what's going to happen. So I've had a couple of reactive dogs that when they go on their walk, so we usually we ask the client to say, hey, why don't you do a little bit of nose work, couple searches before you go on your walk? That helps calm the brain, reduce that anxiety. So when they go out to do a walk the dog is in a better state to be less reactive. Right, not going to be 100%, but it's going to help. And so that's kind of where I would start with a reactive dog. That's what I've done with a few of my clients.
Speaker 2:Let's do some searching prior to his walk and then you're going to do all the other counter conditioning things right Shorten the walk, make sure that the dog is comfortable, do all the other things that you would do for this reactive dog, and then add this part of the nose work and then go for a walk. And this is measurable, right, because you should see the dog be less vigilant and more relaxed during his walk. You should be able to immediately see that, and if you don't, then we may not be ready for that long walk or, you know, you might have to shorten it, go to a couple houses and then come back, do a little bit more nose work and things like that, because this is pretty measurable. You should be able to see the dog kind of be more relaxed as they go out for their walk.
Speaker 1:And do you put anything on cue where you're saying go sniff, or anything like that, like, what does the setup look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, After a while, because for some dogs you can take it on the road. You can take a few boxes, go to the park, do the same thing. The dog's going to be like, oh, we're doing this sport, and you could say go sniff, find it, whatever it is. At some point you can put a cue on it. You may not go for walks, you may just go to another area where there might be some dogs in the distance and do some nose work. The boxes are just a big cue in the beginning. After a while you can condense it down to a small container with food to make it easier for transport, once the dog really understands what the game is.
Speaker 1:So it's almost serving as like a safety cue, in a sense that the dog's like when you see this box, we're going to keep you safe and you can engage in this activity. You feel safe with.
Speaker 2:Yep, and it keeps their brain occupied, working on solving those problems, which then helps them. Being so vigilant on the other dogs isn't such a priority, right? I'm not going to say they're not going to still be looking around and checking it, but they can get back to work and they can let that go and that's what you see and that's so nice, right? I've had some extremely reactive dogs. They could be searching a dog can pass a few feet away and the dog just goes. He may acknowledge it, but he'll go back to doing his thing, which is amazing, and it just reduces all that reactivity. And then going back and forth in a class, going back and forth, you should see that decrease in reactivity, going back to their crate or whatever it is. So it's pretty marked. Like I said, when you do the nose work in the house and you take them out for a walk, the dog should be looking a lot more relaxed Not a lot, but more relaxed than he was before. Right?
Speaker 1:Tracking the data through body language and behavior. Yeah, In other words, the setup is the dog on a long line or just on a six foot with the client.
Speaker 2:Well, if you're just working on the reactivity piece, I recommend a six foot just to keep the dog from making bad choices, especially if you're out and about. It's okay At some point. Once the dog's more comfortable, you can probably transition to a longer line. But with dogs that have reactivity anxiety, you still have to provide some kind of safety for them, that support being on leash even though you're not really guiding them. They need to know that you're there. For some dogs that's very, very important.
Speaker 1:So staying close to the dog, but I'm assuming on a loose leash we're just following along where the dog goes, so we're not putting any tension on that leash. Right, right, right.
Speaker 2:So the dog knows you're there, but not worried that he's all by himself. And all that Because in a class setting we do a lot of off leash but it's usually a smaller area, it's off leash, so the dog has that autonomy. But outside can be more anxiety-producing being outside and seeing other dogs. You want to make sure the dog understands that the safety thing is still a thing. You have to keep them safe, even though in-house or in a training scenario they can be off-leash just fine because they're safe then. But outside if they're still going to be worried, especially if you live in a very busy doggy area, you want to make sure that the dog knows, hey he's safe here, it's not going to be a problem.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm following along, I think pretty nicely here. So I want to talk about let's use a mock case. We've got, let's say, a dog Labrador. Let's use a Labrador named Jimmy. Jimmy has issues with other dogs at a distance and the client lives in a nice apartment across the street from this beautiful park they can go to and practice. So they have the space, so they do some baseline stuff in the home to get that sort of initial calmness you were talking about in the home. So they do a little bit of nose work first at home, start off, and then they go to the park in the next 10, 15 minutes later, right, and they're working with Jimmy, but they bring the boxes or their food containers with them. So what does that look like in the setup there? Do they bring the containers and leave them? Because you don't want to bring them too close to other dogs, of course, because that could be a problem. Yeah, and do you like hide them? Do you make it? How difficult do you make it for a dog like Jimmy?
Speaker 2:No for a dog like Jimmy that's got reactivity. When he comes out he should see the boxes and know immediately this is what he's going to do. He's like, oh, we're going to do that game thing instead of oh, there's other dogs or everything else. So you definitely want that to be pretty obvious. Like, yeah, we're going to do that game thing in the beginning and then, once you put a cue on it, then the boxes aren't as necessary right for the dog. You can say, oh, go, sniff where it's hidden, more hidden, and they have to work a little bit harder for it.
Speaker 1:Do you differentiate, like if they're looking for that actual box, versus so like go find or go sniff?
Speaker 2:Yep, go find, go sniff, seek.
Speaker 1:You could use whatever, so I should clarify, like if you are using the boxes, we should use a separate cue, or no same It'll be the same It'll translate Yep. Even if there's nothing to go find, it's just the dog's engaging their nose in that environment, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go sniff, it's like I'm looking for whatever. And then eventually, if you transition to smaller containers or a smaller area, they're going to understand that, hey, when I hear this cue, go sniff, I'm going to be looking for whatever it is. And I'll be honest, for dogs that have reactivity issues, we keep them on food a very long time and it's very dog dependent. Sometimes people get into the sport and they want to continue doing it, which is awesome, but I want to make sure that dog is absolutely comfortable and feel safe, no matter what environment they go in looking for what they're supposed to look for before we put them on odor. If that's a choosing of the client, right, if they decide they want to do that.
Speaker 2:Some of the progression is very quick for some dogs, like jimmy might be like he's a labrador. He might be like oh, this game is awesome because I get to find food and you might see him being able to ignore other dogs way quicker than you might another dog. So you want to take it on the road, go to a different place, go to a PetSmart parking lot. You can go to the back of the parking lot. Can he work there? Can he work where he sees a dog in the distance. If a dog happens to pass 10 feet away, can he handle that before you change too much?
Speaker 2:Because people tend to want to move too quickly and unfortunately the dog's still learning the game, because some of the dogs will get it right away. They'll be like this is awesome, they'll just go and their activity really diminishes. But there's other dogs that have a little more difficult time and that's not to say we've had dogs that need meds, behavioral meds and all that because they were still too anxious. Nose work is a tool for reactivity and anxiety. You still have to do all the rest of it. You might have to put them on behavioral meds. You might have to do all the other things to help the dog feel safe, to go on and do the work right, to help the dog feel safe to go on and do the work right.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that kind of has me segwaying into what's working behind this, the science behind it, so I'd love to talk more about that, but we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and we'll be right back. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you are enjoying this episode. I have a very special offer that I am announcing again just before the Aggression and Dogs conference this year. You've heard me talk about the Aggression and Dogs Master Course on this podcast and for a limited time, to celebrate the fifth annual conference, I'm going to launch a bundle offer that includes the course and a whopping 28 webinars from the world's foremost experts on aggression. Yes, that's all of the webinars. The webinars alone would typically cost more than $900 to purchase together, but I'm including them for free in this special bundle deal with the all new Aggression and Dogs Master Course. That's right.
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Speaker 1:All right, we're back with Nancy Reyes. We've been talking about nose work and helping dogs that do have reactivity or aggression issues, and what can we do? How can we use the power of the nose to do that? And we were just talking about this sample case, Jimmy, where it's a black lab, or I just assigned black lab to the dog I have black lab.
Speaker 1:So we were helping Jimmy and he goes to the park and he's starting to engage his nose and let's say we do see a nice reduced frequency of reactivity. He's feeling more comfortable. We're assessing that through body language and physiological signs. Let's talk about what's really working there. What's happening? Is it the increased enrichment? Is it classical conditioning? Is it some particular association? Is it desensitization? How do you describe reaching the goals that?
Speaker 2:the client's looking for Right. So we are classically conditioning the dog right. I know there's a big movement of people wanting to start with operant conditioning on scent work, but it's not the same when it's classically conditioned to go find food and you make that association if you decide to go on odor. Odor brings a food that seems to be so much more powerful for the dog and it processes in the brain a little differently than operant. Because here's what the challenges with operant and operant conditioning the behavior will bring a click or a marker. You know when you see the behavior happen right, a sit or a down or whatever In nose work, are you sure the dog is actually sniffing and are you clicking when the dog is actually sniffing or is the dog doing something else? Because you can see, with clicker training sometimes you click and you're like, oops. The great thing about clicker training is you can fix it. But in stent work it's like is he inhaling? Is he sniffing that? Is he sniffing the tin? Is he processing that thing that it's in? What is he really processing when you're marking that behavior? Because you're marking it, not the dog, right? Not that it doesn't work for some of the dogs that are very drivey, which is some of the detection. People use it but dogs are super, super drivey and it's not a problem. But for our pet dogs they're pet dogs. They're purposely bred to be our pets, not detection dogs. So it's difficult to use some of the methodologies of the detection world to work, to apply it to our dogs, because our dogs don't live the same way they do. Our dogs live in our homes. They sleep on our beds. There's a whole different way that we live. The detection dogs are different. So the classical conditioning I have found over the years I have helped tons of behavior cases with nose work as well as the dog sport. We have produced many, many elite champions and doing it the same way.
Speaker 2:Cause I know some of the thought process about operant is that not starting them on food is that they'll false alert on distractors, which isn't true at all. That doesn't happen when, if you do it properly in the beginning, we were on food for a year long time. We don't do that anymore because it's most of the dogs can move along faster if they're interested in the sport. But we were on food for a long time, never had problems with false alerts on distractors. I mean I have a very, very hungry black lab that she loves food, loves food, but she understands that only odor brings food. So if there's food in the environment doesn, she understands that only odor brings food. So if there's food in the environment, doesn't matter, only the odor will get her food. If you make that clear, it's not a problem. So with classical conditioning it's a more natural learning for the dog. It really taps into what they're bred to do and it just makes it cleaner for the dogs to understand what you want.
Speaker 1:So, going back to Jimmy, if we're using classical conditioning, what I'm envisioning here is that, jimmy, this park where the dogs are, predicts the scent work or the nose work. You're going to be finding food here yeah. So food happens in this environment where the other dogs are, yeah, and then just to. So I can clarify this the operant component you're talking more kind of classically for doing nose work, work for lack of a better term. And so what does the operant look like? Is it actually putting something on cue, like a particular?
Speaker 1:behaviors we're looking for rather than just naturally allowing the dog to sniff.
Speaker 2:Correct Right For operant. You put the odor out, the dog puts her nose on it. You click and reinforce that. Okay, that's kind of yeah, got it. So that's kind of how they. Hey, they do it. But my behavior cases clients with aggression or anxiety. Those dogs never have to go on odor. They can be on food forever. It's not necessary. If they're not interested in doing the dog sport, there is really no reason for them to go on odor. None Right. If they're not going to do the sport, just use food. It'll be fine. It's like not everybody wants to do it. If you decide to do it later, that's fine too. But people may not be interested in doing that. They might just want the dog to stop pulling and lunging at other dogs. They just that's all they want.
Speaker 1:Right. I think it depends on what we're looking to do in the process, so the procedure. So, if we're looking for a classical conditioning procedure, food's probably going to be your best bet, although of course, we could do that with a sense, but it adds extra steps.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So, with regards to good, powerful, classical conditioning, the food seems to make the most sense. No-transcript nose work we're doing at home. What could be happening there if that's part of the package of saying, okay, let's do this first before we go out into the real world on that day for that session, for instance, Before we go to the park, we're going to do a little nose work at home, warm you up. What do you think is happening there as part of helping this overall process?
Speaker 2:Well, the way odor is processed in the brain. It passes through where they make the memories right, the dopamine, and then it goes through the part of the brain that makes memories. So you want those memories to be very positive and powerful for the dog. Because it is a dopamine hit every time they go out to do searches. It makes them feel good. And then being around the other dogs or it doesn't matter, there's a feel-good feeling around that, that being around in that environment, right?
Speaker 1:And so then they're kind of processing these associations, I guess we can call them and then they start to pair Okay, when I'm smelling this particular odor which is the food, well, we can argue first that we get that calmness and then we bring that outside, so we get that classical conditioning. But what about desensitization here? So we could argue okay, we're just at a distance from dogs, whether the dog is doing nose work or looking up at the sky or doing agility or play way you know, just playing with the owner is all of those we could be exposed. Or even bats, where we're just exposing the dog at a distance to their particular triggers. Do you think there's that element of desensitization when you're doing the nose work as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always recommend for the reactive dogs we do a lot of counter condition and desensitization first anyway, just to have those, especially if they're coming to classes. At my facility the handlers need those tools right. So we use a lot of Suzanne's auto check-in, the relaxation protocol, all those things. We put those in place right. So we use a lot of Suzanne's auto check-in, the relaxation protocol, all those things. We put those in place first. Then we add the nose work. We have found that combination of tools is work best for us. Suzanne's auto check-in is a very powerful tool. We use it for everything. Anyway, we use it for puppy basic everything. It's our mainstay of what we do at 4U Canine and the relaxation protocol for dogs to learn how to just relax and do nothing.
Speaker 2:Because a lot of the desensitization that I see with reactive dogs is a lot of activity. Touch this that a lot of activity which increases arousal, which is counterproductive to having a dog be calm around other dogs. So a reactive dog class, for example, Suzanne always used to say should be boring. There shouldn't be a lot of excitement happening. It should be dull, it should be the dog can see another dog, can be around another dog and nothing's happening. That should be a goal. You shouldn't have a reactive dog class where dogs are just going off all the time. I mean, the first time, first class can be very exciting, but after that it's all being calm and relaxed around other dogs.
Speaker 2:So these are the tools we use for our reactive dog classes. Right, we do auto check in. We do it virtually, so they do it at home, so they have the tools when they come in. So when they come in they already have that and then we introduce, we give them all the other tools you know the Leslie McDivitt's one, two, three, the up-down game, things like that as well so that they have those in the case of an emergency.
Speaker 2:But to make a lasting internal change, the auto check-in, relaxation and the nose work seems to just bring it all down for the dog and they seem to be more relaxed around the other dogs, seeing another dog and being around another dog. Obviously there are cases where medication is got to happen. They need it. So we do a lot of that work up front before we introduce the nose work so that it's effective, because if you do it too soon before they have all those other things in place, it's not going to be as effective because the dog's still going to be pretty worried about the other dogs and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:So let me summarize this from my own brain. For me it sounds like such a great bang for your buck, meaning you're getting so many benefits in one exercise or kind of like this. So, like for Jimmy, we're meeting his needs, you know, because he's a lab that likes food. That's like a breed specific trait, which is kind of silly to say because it is a lab. But enrichment is really what I was thinking of. Something we didn't kind of focus on as much yet is the enrichment components. You're meeting needs, you're providing enrichment, you're providing safety. We're doing classical conditioning or classical counter conditioning, technically, if we're exposing the dog in those environments and it's paired with food.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we are also doing desensitization if we're doing it at a distance and the dog's like, okay, these things are around an environment, but they're typically provocative stimuli, so we're exposing the dog to those things and we're doing a calming exercise that is less arousing than other things. So, especially for dogs that have arousal issues, this can be really super helpful. So did I do a good job summarizing Perfect?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, because I think people are looking for that wow factor. Wow, this is when you have a reactive dog. Wow should not be ever what you're looking for. You should be looking for. He's calm, he's relaxed around the other dogs, because being aroused around the other dogs it just it's like some dogs have a longer fuse than others and some dogs it's just they don't need all that arousal. And I think people look, you know that's all that activity. I remember I had a client that went to another trainer on a reactive dog before she came to our reactive dog class and she was doing touch and spin and all this activity and I'm like, oh my God, that is exhausting, first of all for the dog, second for the handler. Having to keep the dog busy so that he ignores all the other dogs, that is wow hard for most people. It is almost impossible for a pet owner to sustain that. It's hard. So teaching the dog that sometimes nothing's happening and there might be a dog, there is okay, sometimes nothing, nothing happening is good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting. It's kind of like the evolution of our dog training community where things because technically you know, look at me, watch me spin, touch, all of those are beautiful alternative behaviors and when they've been trained with positive reinforcement we can also argue that classical conditioning is occurring because the dog's like, okay, I can do these behaviors when I see those other dogs in the park and so it's reinforcing for the handler because the dog's not barking and lunging and having issues if they're engaging in touch and spin. So totally understand that. But I think we've evolved to also learning that we need to watch for the arousal levels, even though we might be sticking with two positive, balanced emotional exercises. You know it could be fun with your handler or it could be, you know, nose work.
Speaker 1:But for me, just observing dogs out there in the world and you see the activities of dogs that are really not reacting to anything, it's the dogs that are free roaming and just sniffing, using their nose and engaging in natural behaviors, not as you had mentioned in the beginning of the show, which I loved. You know where we're going to their world and if they're in their world and they're feeling safe in their world, it's different than bringing them into our world and we're still keeping them safe and still using reinforcers. Sure, two kind of different things.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I love that we talked about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's their world. They sniff everything. We're just there to observe what they observe. And sometimes coming into that environment is so cool and that's one of the reasons I love canine nose work. Environment is so cool and that's one of the reasons I love canine nose work. It's just as a competitor. You get to see your dog work in such a natural way without any involvement from you, and they communicate with us.
Speaker 2:And I did agility for many years. But nose work it's different, the bond that you build with the dog because you really get to know them really well, versus the other things. Not that I don't enjoy the other sports still, because I still do but I find that nose work I get to just observe and watch, which we don't do enough of as pet owners. I don't think I can be guilty of it too, because I work a lot, but nose work gives me that opportunity to say like, okay, what do you find interesting? What do you find fun? What are you looking for? And there's an additional benefit for us, right, you get to be in their world for just a few moments, you know, during a class or at a competition.
Speaker 1:And that's just for me such a fascinating thing and activity is to let's watch the dogs, you know, rather than trying to get them to engage with us all the time, and it's just our job to set those safe environments to do those exercises.
Speaker 1:So can I ask you about a recent study? I don't know how recent it is, but there was a study it's called Let Me Sniff and it was from Durant and Harowitz, kind of talking about the cognitive bias paradigm. But it really was kind of summarizing, like looking at optimism and pessimism in the dogs and they did heel work with some of the dogs in the group and then nose work with some of the other dogs. And they found I think they had like this ambiguous bucket where sometimes would have food and sometimes not, and the dogs that they would go home and do heel work and some of them would do nose work. And then after two weeks they discovered that the dogs that had done nose work there was less latency, meaning they would be faster to go check out the ambiguous bucket Because sometimes there'd be food and sometimes not and they'd be faster. So there'd be less latency between the dogs that were doing heel work. So the summarization was that the dogs that had done nose work were more optimistic in that. So what are your thoughts there?
Speaker 2:Oh, totally Absolutely. And again, those two activities one is the dog-driven activity and the other one isn't. So, if you think about it, if the dogs are doing nose work, they are the ones checking it out and making that discovery of food or not, versus heel work. We're telling them what to do and how to navigate it, so they're waiting for us to give them that instruction or learn that pattern, right when in nose work they have the agency to go check that out. So there's a confidence building there too, which helps with being optimistic and more positive and their world is a lot more fun, if you will, because they're actually able to make those discoveries on their own. We're not telling them to go find it, or we can tell them to go find it, but there's look, there's look what I found.
Speaker 2:And that's why dogs that tend to have anxiety with nose work, they tend to be a lot more confident in the world. They're more confident to go check out things and explore things versus, you know, being scared and not wanting to enjoy the environment. So that's why it's so important that dogs and nose work have that agency to do the work right. We're there to support they are doing all that work, they're figuring stuff out. And if you think about it, when we figure something out right and we figure out a problem, it's going to stick. It really sticks because we figured it out ourselves, versus somebody telling us how to do that right. It's different. It's a different part of the brain that gets activated there.
Speaker 1:Yes, the way I wrap my mind around this is like when we think about cognition and how humans learn things. You know, as children and all through development, we see things and we just sort of like cataloging. Like you know, we have our photos in our phone, like we're taking photos constantly in our brains, deciding this was safe, this was safe, that was not safe, and we're just through our life taking these snapshots of certain situations or pictures or stimuli With dogs. It just makes me wonder how much that olfactory aspect comes in and just how powerful is, how much they're cataloging those things through their scent. So I remember this scent and it was a safe environment. I remember that one. It wasn't so safe, it just, you know, it fascinates me thinking about that and just how much they're taking in with their nose.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, and the olfactory bulb in the dog's brain is huge compared to ours. Somebody gave a really good example their olfactory abilities are like an eight and a half by 11 paper. Ours is a postage stamp and that is absolutely true. But they can suss out in an environment is huge. That's why it's like oh, he didn't know the odor was there. Oh, no, no, he did Right, he knew there was maybe soap over here and there's a cookie over here. And those of you who have hounds I have a beagle and had a beagle before I told my husband make sure that you don't drop any kibble, because if it gets under the fridge we're going to have to move it because she's not going to let it go. And sure enough, that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 2:The kibble slipped under that fridge, that dog. The minute she walked in that room she goes. I know where it's at and I really want it. And guess what? We had to move that fridge to get that piece of kibble out because she wasn't going to let it go. Their sense of smell is amazing and how they, like you, said how they process it if it's positive or negative. So I used to always say there's no way you can mess up nose work for the dog because they love it so much. Oh yeah, there is. Oh yeah, there is, because we're humans, we can't help ourselves. We're going to try to want to get involved and so that's how you can make a very negative association and nose work. And unfortunately I see that happen, where the people get so intense about it and make it not fun for the dog and then the dog's like I really don't want to find it because this game stinks.
Speaker 1:Well, tell me more about what that looks like. What's the problem? That can happen.
Speaker 2:So people that tend to want to be more involved like find it here. They put a lot of pressure on the dog doing the searches the way they want. Okay, Right Again from the detection world, that's kind of how they have to do it. But they have to do it that way because they have to go to court and prove that this dog was correct. Right, we don't have to go to court. And so when we put that pressure or check here and make forcing them like somebody telling you come on, check over there, check over here, check over there, After a while I'm like, well, that's not fun at all, right, it's not fun. You're like, oh God, and you can see the dog's drive diminish.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because that contingency is reinforcement from the handler for finding that scent, versus just letting the dog explore the world. Right. Two different things. Two different things, absolutely. And we've heard that word, confidence. I see it often when we're talking about nose work. What does that look like, though? Because the behaviorist might be like how do you operationalize confidence?
Speaker 1:Like I don't know when the dog is showing confidence. And I'd be like how do you operationalize confidence Like I don't know when the dog is showing confidence, and is it the nose work doing that, or is it just desensitization? So what's your argument for that?
Speaker 2:The way I measure it right Confidence, if you will is the dog's interest and ability to work independently of their handler. For example, if you have a dog that comes in and they don't want to be too far away, they're a little worried. They're not very exploratory, you know you could see the dog's not sure about checking things out and then after a few sessions of nose work, that dog's like hold my beer, I'm going to go and check that and find that right. So that's what that confidence looks like. Right, it just looks like the dog's like safety and it looks different than counter conditioning, because counter conditioning is still contingent on the handler, right, in many cases. In this case, the dog's like yeah, I know what I'm doing because they're able to have that freedom. So it looks I don't know. I guess it's hard to put it in scientific terms, but you can see the dog just like yeah, I can do this without you. Versus the counter conditioning one, it's very, still very contingent on you. Good distinction, it's very different. It's like the dog's like I got this, just keep up, and they wait for us to get there. They tell us come over here and feed me because I found it. Versus with the counter conditioning, you're like, okay, you've got to be there, are you coming? There's a lot of other things that the dog needs to have there to be able to do that.
Speaker 2:So, because before nose work that's what I did is a lot of counter conditioning and you know that's that's what we did then. That's all we, it's all we had. So nose work, you see that it just goes quickly, more exponentially, and it becomes more of who the dog is. I guess it's the dog becoming more of who that dog is. Whatever that is, it's a different stage of some dogs, they really come out of the shell and they're great. And other dogs, you know, they might come out a little bit more, but not, you know, everybody is going to be in a different place and limited by their genetics and everything else that's there. So it's not like every dog would be like whoa, this is great. You're going to have some dogs that are like this is as good as it gets.
Speaker 1:I still need you to be with me, but I can do this now better than I could before, right, I would say, though I would argue that nose work is probably the activity that you're going to see most dogs engage in.
Speaker 1:Out of any other activity that we might use with this kind of work helping dogs with reactivity and aggression issues too, because they're going to do it anyways, they're using their nose anyways. How we use it to help us is up to the procedure, and that has me thinking that nose work, out of all the things we might ask to do, versus, you know, playing certain activities or engaging in certain exercises you know whether it's a particular protocol that we're using, it's probably most likely for your clients to participate in that kind of activity right or versus asking them to do many things because it can be fun for them as well. It's a fun activity for the client to incorporate that in their work with, like, a reactive dog out in the park and we're putting his you know nose work and sniffing versus some of the other protocols. Would you agree?
Speaker 2:I would agree. And the other thing and I know we've talked about it briefly is compliance. When you have a dog that's reactive or a dog that has anxiety the client the compliance is better because it's a game and it can get those kids. If you have kids or family members involved in you know, hiding the food for the dog and all that, and it just becomes a whole family thing. So the compliance is there. So the dogs tend to progress more and as a sport, yeah, it's wonderful. Dogs tend to progress more and as a sport, yeah, it's wonderful.
Speaker 2:Something everybody can do, whether the limitations of the dog or the person are there, and you get to really engage with the dog and again going into their world.
Speaker 2:Right. But for compliance purposes and we all as dog trainers have dealt with that or deal with that all the time this seems to be if there's kids or families, they tend to really do it because it's a game and the children actually are the ones that are like we've got to play the game with you know, fluffy, and help that dog with that anxiety and just make it make him a more confident dog. Also, those families with young kids and very energetic puppies nose work is a game changer, because that mental work that it takes to do nose work helps kind of bring that puppy energy down, especially at the witching hour that we call where the puppies are getting the zoomies. Doing a little bit of nose work prior to that not a bad thing and it helps keep that down. So, yeah, compliance seems to be a little bit better in many cases with the nose work than some of the other things that we give people to work on.
Speaker 1:And in that note, if you had one take home message for everybody listening in right now and how nose work can be so powerful, for let's not just even talk reactivity and aggression, but any behavior issues we're seeing what would that message be?
Speaker 2:I think the message would be go into the dog's world, Let them show you what they're doing. Let them show you Be a student of your dog, Because I think you'll get so much more understanding. Because I think that's with aggression and reactivity understanding is so hard. They don't understand why this is happening and sometimes just being a student of your dog is just. You'll learn so much more, and nose work really helps us see that a little more clearly than some of the other things that we do.
Speaker 1:Very well said. Very well said, Nancy. This has been wonderful chatting. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about what you're up to?
Speaker 2:Yes, well, you can go to my website for your canine, f-o-r-y-o-u-r, the letter K, the number nine dot com, or you can also find me, nancy Q Reyes, on Facebook, or my business page For your Canine on Facebook and For your Canine Training on Instagram, and you can also email me at nancy, at for your canine, if you're interested in getting more information.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned you have a course coming out later this year.
Speaker 2:Yes, I did a course last year. It was the first inaugural course on step-by-step how to use nose work for reactive dogs. We've revamped it, we've made it better and we're going to offer it again after the aggression and dogs conference at the end of the year. I'll have Mike put the link to get on that mailing list in the show notes. That way you can join us if you choose.
Speaker 1:Excellent, nancy. Thanks so much. It was really great chatting with you and I hope to see you again in the future. All right, thank you so much. This was awesome, had a great time. It's always a pleasure chatting with Nancy and I'm really happy we're able to dive into what the dog's nose knows, and I think we are. We're really just scratching the surface of what dog's olfactory senses are capable of and how our further understanding of this incredibly powerful sense will help us help dogs.
Speaker 1:And don't forget to head on over to AggressiveDogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression, from the Aggression in Dogs Master Course to webinars from world-renowned experts and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs. We also have the Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog-to-dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear-based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends. Bye.