The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
From Fear to Trust: Transforming Dog Grooming with Christine Neumeyer-Smith
In this episode, I chat with Christine Neumeyer-Smith, a master groomer, behavior specialist, AND certified professional dog trainer, to uncover the secrets of making grooming a stress-free experience for dogs. Christine's journey from a boarding kennel intern to a leading expert in the field is nothing short of inspiring. We tackle the communication gaps between groomers and trainers and reveal practical strategies like counter conditioning and consent-based training to enhance dog comfort and safety during grooming sessions.
About Christine:
"I'm a Master Groomer Behavior Specialist (MGBS), Certified Professional Groomer (CPG), Certified Behavior Consultant for Canines (CBCC-KA), Certified Professional Dog Trainer (CPDT-KA), and Fear Free Certified Groomer and Trainer (FFCP). My journey began in 1986 during an internship for the Essex Agricultural and Technical Institute Animal Science program, where I discovered my passion for training and grooming. In 2000, I founded Happy Critters, offering house call grooming, in-home training, and behavior consulting. As an instructor at the Whole Pet Grooming Academy, I teach The Master Groomer Behavior Specialist program online course. Additionally, I've been hosting the Creating Great Grooming Dogs podcast since 2018 and speaking at grooming conferences and summits."
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Dogs love me. Just hold on to his foot while he screams. He'll settle down.
Speaker 2:This episode is for all you groomers out there, or anyone that grooms their own dog, which is just about everyone who has, well, a dog. Christine Neumeyer-Smith joins me for this episode and we chat about all the considerations to take to help dogs become more comfortable with grooming, especially if they have a history of aggression and any type of handling or husbandry situation. Christine is a master groomer behavior specialist, certified professional groomer, certified behavior consultant for canines, certified professional dog trainer and fear-free certified groomer and trainer. Her journey began in 1986 during an internship for the Essex Agricultural and Technical Institute Animal Science Program, where she discovered her passion for training and grooming. In 2000, she founded Happy Critters offering house call grooming, in-home training and behavior consulting. As an instructor at the Hall Pet Grooming Academy, she teaches the Master Groomer Behavior Specialist Program online course, the Master Groomer Behavior Specialist Program online course.
Speaker 2:Christine has been hosting the Creating Great Grooming Dogs podcast since 2018 and speaks at grooming conferences and summits, and if you are enjoying the bitey end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there's a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from October 11th to 13th 2024 in Scottsdale, arizona, with both in-person and online options. You can also learn more about the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues. I also have a wide variety of webinars, upcoming courses, videos and articles, all from the foremost experts in training and behavior. We are your one-stop shop for all things related to aggression in dogs. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog.
Speaker 2:This week we have a topic that we haven't talked about on this podcast before. It has to do with grooming dogs and all of the considerations we should be taking not only from the grooming side, but also the behavior and training side. So I'm really excited to have Chrissy Neumeier-Smith join us this week. Welcome, chrissy.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:Let's dive right in here. I would like to know what got you into grooming and training, because that's sort of an interesting dual role where there's not a lot of trainers that do both and not a lot of groomers that do both. So what got you into that side of things?
Speaker 1:So I went to high school for agriculture and animal science and we were required to have a summer job internship and I got one at a boarding kennel. So I was working as a kennel tech and during my lunch breaks I was watching the groomers and fell in love with it, and then I'd stay after work and hang out for the dog training stuff and ride my bike home. Both of those things just grabbed me from the very beginning.
Speaker 2:Nice and that kind of bloomed into what you have going on now, which are teaching trainers and groomers all over the world right Through your online offerings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, which is pretty exciting.
Speaker 2:That's amazing and we were kind of talking too about sometimes between industries or between professions. So we have, like, the veterinary profession and the trainers and groomers. Sometimes there can be a little bit of conflict in the information and what beliefs are around behavior and training especially. So what are some issues you're seeing Because you have the trainer's eyes as well as the groomer's eyes, so let's kind of look at both angles From a grooming lens, your groomer's eyes. What issues do you typically see that's happening or kind of with the training side and this communication between industries?
Speaker 1:So I would say that a lot of these terms that we use don't sync up and dog groomers if they say an e-collar, they're talking an Elizabethan collar. You know trainers, when they say an e-collar, they're talking about something entirely different. So some of our terms don't match up. Groomers tend to use terms like holistic grooming. Trainers tend to use things like cooperative care. I am trying to get more groomers to buy into the idea that cooperative care is really what we're looking for, but even just the words that we use. But I feel that there are a lot of places where there are some gaps and each field doesn't really know what the other one is doing. Non-groomers think they know what grooming is and they really don't. You might have some blind spots and non-trainers think that they know what training is. You know like well, what would an obedience class do to help this dog? But training is so much more than obedience classes.
Speaker 2:So, from a groomer's point of view, they might not even think to go to a trainer because they don't know what kind of options are available to them, yeah, and vice versa. You're kind of seeing the same thing from the trainer's perspective and it's again sort of a lost in translation kind of communication issue. It sounds like.
Speaker 1:I think so. I think so. When a trainer gives an owner instructions and then the owner gives the groomer instructions, they're playing telephone, you know, and it does it. The context is off, and often the groomer doesn't have the background to understand or how to implement the instructions that have been given, and so of course, they think these are ridiculous. I can't do that while I groom. So, you know, there's there's a lot of barriers that don't need to be there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let's kind of dive into some examples of that, because as a trainer, you know when I think about okay, if I've got a dog that has an issue with grooming, I'm going to do some counter conditioning. Maybe I'll use something like a distraction technique. I use some consent-based training or cooperative care and teach the client how to do. Maybe the dog teaches a chin rest at home, or something like that. Where are the problematic areas of that that you're seeing in that translation? Is it because it takes so much time or the skill sets? What issues are you seeing there?
Speaker 1:Oh, it's such a great question. You even mentioned like chin targets, nose targets, things like that. The problem for groomers is that there's nobody watching the dog's head, and it's one of the most common things that we find frustrating. As a groomer, you are one-on-one with that dog and you are trying to do something on a back foot and literally cannot see if that dog is holding a nose target or a chin target or staring at the bucket or doing some other start button behavior. So some of those start button behaviors aren't a reality in the grooming shop unless we now have two people and are charging for two people worth of work and trying to help more groomers understand that that's a great procedure to work toward not needing it later. So sometimes groomers are being told okay, and you'll need a clicker and you'll need treats, but as a dog groomer, if you are working with a dog, it's so common'll need treats, but as a dog groomer, if you are working with a dog, it's so common.
Speaker 1:I'll use an example. A dog groomer might be drying a dog's front leg and they've got the nozzle of the dryer under their left armpit. They're holding the dog's foot with their left hand. They've got a comb in between the fingers of their left hand because they're switching out from the brush in their right hand to the comb and somebody tells them they need cookies and a clicker and they're like I'm already doing three hands worth of work and their frustration gets there and they don't understand the why. They don't understand that these are approximations toward a dog that you can do all of that with. I hope that answers your question.
Speaker 2:Definitely, definitely. So, besides shape-shifting into an octopus where you have like eight arms, where you can hold all these different things. What are some things that you're seeing that do work well, translating from the trainers recommending something, or teams where you've seen trainers working with somebody that needs help in the grooming. What are some types of techniques that you do see work well?
Speaker 1:What I think works really well is if a trainer is talking to an owner about working on things at home and understanding the context that they're going to be used in, and then the groomer has this dog, who the owners are already all set with the idea that we don't need to complete a trim today, we don't need to complete nail trimming today, that they're working cooperatively, that not just with the dog, but the groomer and the trainer are also on board with. Let's help this dog have a better experience today and let go of the grooming outcomes, and that works really well.
Speaker 2:And can you think of some actual techniques that we might be doing? And can you think of some actual techniques that we might be doing? Let's use an example a dog that needs, let's say, ear cleaning or something like that, and the dog has an aversion to that. But let's say it's something we need to kind of get done. It's kind of more urgent on that side of things. What do you see, for example, in that regard that a trainer can work with at home and be like, okay, we're going to do this at home with the client and then it's going to translate well to the grooming experience without the trainer or the owner there.
Speaker 1:You know, I think what works really well for something like that is that the owners understand that when they're at home they're trying to incrementally help this dog feel more comfortable with the types of touching, because that does translate to others and maybe they've been going to this groomer for a while.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe this is not a new stranger, but that's part of what groomers face. Groomers don't live with these dogs, so if they have this dog come in, that is, they've been working on doing something around the ears. Now, if the groomer knows, oh, I'm going to continue on with the kind of training you've been doing at home, if that communication happens, you know, and maybe that is just ear touches and lifting the ear up and then seeing how the dog handles things, like, okay, now we're going to put a cotton ball, and now we're going to put a cotton ball near your ear and in your ear and all those little minute. You know things that we do as trainers for a groomer. If they don't understand the why, that can be really frustrating, but it is for our owners too.
Speaker 2:And if we think about groomers as a different, type of owner that can be really helpful for us. So it sounds like, in a sense, if we're going to look at sort of the techniques involved and what you're explaining there. In my mind, let's desensitize the dog a little bit more at home.
Speaker 2:So not any particular behavior expectation like contingency on a particular behavior to do this. In that context, versus, I'm just going to get you used to people touching your ears so that way when you get to the groomers or vets it's more likely somebody could touch your ears, so you're a little bit more acclimated to that, rather than I want you to do X, Y or Z behavior when somebody's about to touch your ears. Does that kind of make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, to normalize the kind of touching that groomers are going to do, because we have lots of different equipment and it's hard for an owner to be able to use that types of equipment. But what if we just start off by normalizing all of those touches being touched all over? And it's almost like when we as dog trainers tell people yeah, he doesn't do it on a walk, but he can do it in your kitchen, and that's a good start. Can he do it in your kitchen, can he do it in your living room, can he do it in your driveway, you know? And to build up incrementally towards something that looks like a grooming shop environment or a grooming environment, because not all groomers are grooming shops. We have vans, we have house call, we have lots of different grooming setups.
Speaker 2:And so next steps to that? So let's say we have a very dedicated pet guardian, for instance, and they're into training, they're more into behavior. What would be next steps? So we've got working on desensitization, we're getting the dog used to the equipment you're mentioning and some handling. Are there any sort of next steps, tangible behaviors, that you might put into place?
Speaker 1:So I think if you are a trainer and you're super into cooperative care, I would like you to consider the idea that instead of nose targeting, chin targeting and the bucket game things that are pretty common To move that into cooperative care and your consent, your start button behavior is if the dog is relaxed under your hand. That's what I use as a start button behavior and that's what I'm teaching groomers Can you open your hand and is that dog still staying there and relaxing into you? And to transition to that, because groomers can feel that while we work Maybe not all the time, but most of the time we can feel if a dog is tense or not.
Speaker 2:So when you say can you describe that a little bit more?
Speaker 1:So you say, open your hand, and are you placing your hand on a certain area or yeah, Can I hold your ear and not feel like I have to physically control the dog from moving? Can I hold a foot and open my palm and have that foot stay there? These are ways that we can have consent in grooming that a groomer can actually feel. Can I lift your tail? Can I manipulate your body, move you into different poses, put equipment near you and have you stay loose.
Speaker 2:Can you describe a little bit more how somebody would teach that at home? Let's say, you've got some listeners in and they're like that sounds great, Chrissy, but how do I go? About doing that.
Speaker 1:And the way to do that is you want to start off when your dog is already pretty chill and get working on touching them all over, and if they start to stiffen, that's your signal that you've maybe gone too far. And how do we expand that bubble? How do we make this enjoyable for your pet to be touched all over, to casually lift their feet up with us, because that will translate to what they need to do in a grooming setting? I think that answers your question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when you say you had mentioned earlier, they kind of push into your hand and I can kind of picture my own dog when she wants to be pet more. She does the whole hand nudging thing. But yeah, she gets very comfortable about kind of leaning into the space, my space, as you were mentioning. Is that what you mean by that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Or if they're trying to pull away. You know I don't want dogs pulling away and I think a lot of people don't realize if you've never really watched grooming. All of our tools can hurt a dog. We are literally using sharp tools on wiggly creatures. So sometimes people are like, can't you just use the hair clippers instead of scissors? And I'm like, yes, but those can hurt a dog too. So at every step we're trying to keep that dog what I tell my listeners calm, comfortable and cooperative. That's our goal through all of it. It should be about as interesting as watching paint dry. And so if we talk to our owners about, like, get them used to touching all over, you know it doesn't even need to be with a brush, it doesn't need to be with a tool. What if we just get them all loosey-goosey? You know tech talk loosey-goosey and used to like, oh, someone's messing with my ear, someone's lifting up my tail, someone's looking at my dew claws, someone's going to look at my teeth, and that translates well to the veterinary too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I will second the notion of things can hurt, because going to the barber there's nothing worse than a dull pair of clippers on the side of your head. But I can say something to the barber the dogs have to communicate through body language or sometimes, aggression. If it hurts, so yeah, it's so. Now, when you're talking about that, are you pairing reinforcement with it as well? So let's say we start teaching start buttons or like the dog giving consent, leaning into my hand. You then say great, and then reinforce that in the home environment Because we'll talk about food in the grooming environment more in just a moment. But what about at home? It's like, how do you teach that, or reinforce that, I should say.
Speaker 1:I think it's going to depend on what that dog is comfortable with and if it's getting used to something new or if it's working with a fear of something they've already been exposed to, and those are two separate problems that we see pretty commonly in dog grooming. The dog that has no experience the dog that has no experience might not need cookies. They might just be like what's this, what's happening? Okay. But the dog who has some fears, there's nothing wrong with using cookies and stuff at home, maybe a clicker, maybe just reward markers. What I find translates later in grooming is if they are not using cookies at home and it starts turning into like oh, this just feels good.
Speaker 2:So even just the tactile feedback or the relationship with the client can really matter. Speaking of which, how do you see that play out? Sometimes we have a dog that's like okay, I trust you, I trust you as my guardian, I'll lean into you, I can totally be fine with you touching me. What about the dogs? That it doesn't translate well to strangers or a groomer or somebody else, like only my person can do that kind of stuff to me, not you. Do you see that happen?
Speaker 1:That happens quite a bit and what many groomers are trying to do to address that is to set up meet and greets. You know, maybe this dog is a new customer for us, or a new dog to that owner, or a new puppy, but a meet and greet like let's just get you used to us because the difference between a stranger is going to give me a bath or my new weird friend is going to give me a bath can be a huge difference. So for us to think about that in terms of all right, well, you've done a lot of work at home, and how can we transfer that to other people, other trusted people?
Speaker 2:Maybe that's not going to be every person, but that could be a particular groomer Do you find it translates well, if that pet guardian has some friends, come over other family members to help practice with this. Okay, Uncle Bob, come over and we're going to have you do a little bit of touching ears, and as long as the dog again is showing consent for that.
Speaker 1:Perhaps I'm not really sure. I haven't tried that because I'm a little bit worried about someone trying to have a helpful friend come over and maybe overwhelm their dog, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it would matter a lot on who is doing it. Yeah, yeah, because.
Speaker 1:Next thing, you know, you've got that friend who's like dogs. Love me. Just hold onto his foot while he screams. He'll settle down, you know.
Speaker 2:And undo a whole lot of work. Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:But owners can do a lot and especially if they're thinking in terms of this, is to help our dogs feel comfortable. This is to help our dog feel good. Dogs are going to have, if they have a 15 year lifespan, they're going to have grooming once in their life. This is for 15 years and if we can work on it in the beginning, that comfort level and trust carries through the whole time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what would you recommend then, since we're on that topic, let's say, pet guardian listening in at home. Now they just got their eight-week puppy, 10-week-old puppy, and what would be some of your top recommendations? Like, start doing this now.
Speaker 2:Again, let's face it, they're getting all kinds of information and we got to socialize, we got to be careful with vaccinations, like they're all kinds of information and so they're like oh, now I got to think about grooming. So if you were to really have an elevator pitch of like this, start this now, because that's really going to help with the grooming aspect.
Speaker 1:If you have a puppy, if you went to a breeder for a puppy, that puppy has probably already started learning about grooming processes. We want that super, super early. It is part of socialization and even though they haven't had their full set of vaccines, talk to your veterinarian about the idea that a meet and greet in a grooming shop isn't about socializing with other dogs. You know they aren't going to be putting them with other dogs, but a lot of groomers are doing what we call a meet and greet Maybe it's 10, 15 minutes, maybe 20, where they bring that puppy in. Puppy gets cuddled by a whole bunch of new people, is exposed to a grooming setting, hears things like dryers, see dogs getting wet and is exposed to the things that they're gonna need for their whole life, much like we would expose them to cars and kids. And it's really an essential part of an early education for these dogs.
Speaker 2:Do you find a lot of groomers offering that service now? It seems like it would be a great, not only service for the puppies but marketing really. Like come in and check out the shop and, yeah, you can come in free, socialize your puppy and then we'll see you as a customer for the rest of the dog's life, right? Yeah, do you see that's a standard kind of a standard practice or needs to happen more.
Speaker 1:It is really becoming a standard practice. There's a lot of interest in behavior in the grooming realm and a lot of groomers are trying to get owners to bring the pups in for like a couple little sessions that don't involve a bath and maybe that first grooming session is a minimal, like we're going to get you wet. Maybe we don't even wet your head, but we're going to get you wet, get you a little soapy, get you used to things. It's actually becoming pretty common practice and sometimes they're selling those as a package. You know, like okay, your puppy package is going to include three of these little shortened visits. We're going to get your puppy used to the kind of things that they're going to need to know as an adult.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's fantastic. That's good to hear because I hadn't realized that, but that's good to hear that that trend is taking off in not only the grooming world but also the veterinary world. The veterinary world Now, from the grooming standpoint. What questions would you ask to the pet guardians? What groomers should ask the pet guardians? Some tips for the groomers listening in.
Speaker 1:So I have four questions that I want groomers to ask, or really anybody who's working with animals to ask owners to try to get a feel for how their dog might respond to things, and I tell these to everybody who will listen. But the first question is what does your dog do if he doesn't like something? And this is before we've had any behavior issue. This is before we even meet the dog. What does your dog do if he doesn't like something? And you might need to give them some prompts. They might be like what kind of things? Well, what does he do if he's left alone in a room? What does he do if you turn on the vacuum cleaner and then they start thinking about it and tell us what he does? Question two is what does your dog do if they don't like something you're doing to them on their physical body?
Speaker 1:And now an owner is in a position to tell us a story where we can get data. So they tell us a story about something like that and you might need to prompt them. You might need to say wiping him down when he comes in from the rain, trying to look in his ear, trying to pull something out of his fur and give them some prompts and maybe they're like you know what? I can't think of anything. He's great for everything. But because we're not waiting until it's a behavior problem and we're using these to assess the owners are very open about it and they're coming up with that storytelling and seeing the bigger picture.
Speaker 1:Then question three is what does he do if you don't stop? And most of our owners say what I mean he put his teeth on me. Why would? Why, of course I stopped, you know. And so we don't really know what a dog would do if they don't stop. Or maybe they have continued and pressed on forward. But that also tells us the story of how this dog had an issue and how it was addressed. And then the fourth question is what do you think your dog will do when I, as a stranger, don't stop? And that's where an owner often says this might be a training problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love those because they're general enough to really extract the information. I use similar questioning when I'm talking about aggression cases or with a client with aggression case, because sometimes you need to ask a much broader question. That's going to allow for sometimes. Oh yeah, that's right, he also does this or she also does that, and I love those questions.
Speaker 1:And groomers should be assuming that every dog is an aggression case until they prove they're not. I would rather assume that a dog is going to have difficulty at some point in the process and be prepared for that than to assume that everything's going to go fine. Trainers have a blind spot and many trainers do which is that we work with owners who know that they have a problem, recognize that they have a problem and made at least one step toward fixing it. Groomers work with the full range of pets out there, so they may have an owner who's like well, of course he's going to try to bite you. Dogs hate grooming. That's why we brought him to you. So this gives us more information for us to find out what this dog is really likely to do, and then from that conversation we can talk to an owner, perhaps about this dog sounds like he might really hurt somebody, or I'm glad he.
Speaker 2:Sounds like he's going to be great and that's a conundrum because I was just thinking like, what do you do Like, because some pet guardians they can't trim the dog's nails and they're afraid to that. And that's a conundrum because I was just thinking like, what do you do like, because some pet guardians, they can't trim the dog's nails. So they're afraid to.
Speaker 2:And you know, and there's okay, let's take the dog to the groomer because the groomer is going to get it done. But what if the groomer's like I'm not going to be able to get it done because your dog doesn't want me to trim the nail? So what is? How do those conversations go? I mean, that must be tough, especially from a business standpoint, right? How do you navigate that conversation?
Speaker 1:That is really tricky. So because I do the behavior part also, I can talk to them about. You know what I know in the past you've probably been able to pay for people to just restrain your dog and get it done, but that's also why you have a seven-year-old dog who's still terrified of it, and a lot of people don't realize that dogs can become injured while things like this are happening. You know, the more people you add. So I talk to people about let's see what we can do about helping them feel better about it. But there are lots of different ways to handle that conversation.
Speaker 1:I had a customer who was like well, I came to you because you're supposed to be some sort of a behavior specialist and you know now you're telling me you won't do it and I'm like I said I wouldn't do it your way.
Speaker 1:I have options for you. You know like there are other things that we can do and it's going to require you to buy in. You know, whether that be doing some homework or helping out or just bringing them in often enough, as we've prescribed, so that we can say like, hey, just bring them in more often, let's go ahead and do this stuff, help them feel comfortable with us, help them feel comfortable with the touching and then help them feel comfortable with the nail trimming, you know, but the idea that they want it done and they just want us to climb all over that dog and get it done and it looks like, you know, like a football tackle, and that's not cool, that's not okay, and it looks like a football tackle and that's not cool, that's not okay, yeah, so I'm thinking from a groomer's perspective and you have clients that are just, they want to get it done.
Speaker 2:And they come to see you and they think, okay, chrissy's great, she's going to be able to do this magical behavior stuff. But then you tell them about the more the planned approach that you'd like to take.
Speaker 2:And they're like all right, forget that, the planned approach that you'd like to take. And they're like all right, forget that, I'm just going to go to the other person that just holds my dog down and I just get it over with. That must just like trainers. We have the issue of compassion fatigue. We get concerned about that dog because we're in it for the dogs as well as the people. But we're really worried about that dog that's now going to be subjected to an aversive experience. How do you navigate that in your own world? Or, you know, maybe you've had that insight from other groomers as well.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We talk to them about the idea that if your dog learns to be comfortable with this, future nail trims are all going to be safer. It's sad but true. I have occasionally shown owners video. There's a video up of a dog that dies during a nail trim. You know it's sad but true. The idea that we'll just put a muzzle on him and then he can't bite you. But there are lots of ways to be injured, you know, and so sometimes we have to backtrack to like that is not safe. I have some safe options for you, but that's just not safe. And when that dog is in my care and I have to choose the safest version. But I also tell them in my experience if you give me three or four sessions where I don't have to worry about what gets completed nail trim wise, as an example, and we just work on behavior give me three or four sessions to show you that we can have improvement, because sometimes they just don't believe that there's a way to improve it.
Speaker 2:How do you cope with it as a groomer when you're seeing that, regardless of what? However you try to talk to the client, they're just like no, I'm off, I'm going to go back to that. And then you see that you know you might see it repeatedly too. Sometimes we as trainers, we see these strings of cases that they end up going to somebody that's promising a quick fix but it does nothing to help that dog feel better in that situation. How do you, chrissy, cope with that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it breaks my heart. It makes me feel like I didn't effectively help that owner understand the problem. You know it doesn't happen very often, but every once in a while, and usually it's not another groomer, it's when the veterinarian has told them like don't worry about it, just bring him in, we will have the techs climb all over him and do it. You know, like usually it's it's. People don't usually bump my opinion for other groomers or other trainers. It's usually like, well, the vet said and I'm like but we have these other options. But also to be able to say in my experience, I can teach your dog to be much better for this. They may never love it, but I can teach a healthy dog to be a safe dog.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you have any advice for newer groomers? Because it sounds like you're seasoned and you also have the benefit of being who you are and so you sort of like what I do is you have already the credibility, so kind of what you say resonates. It's more likely to resonate with people that know your reputation. Do you have any advice for the newer groomers out there and this would resonate with trainers as well when you're experiencing these cases where, okay, here's a dog that's just going back to the old handling and rough handling situation and you start to see that over and over and it starts to affect you emotionally. What is your advice to the new groomers in the field? They're seeing that and they're getting burnt out because they keep seeing that and they're trying to follow the model you're demonstrating.
Speaker 1:You know, I think the way to start that is if you're brand new and you don't have your own case study yet, you don't have your miraculous transformation story of your own, but to say I know that this makes it worse.
Speaker 1:I know that holding this dog down and doing it while they scream even though nail trims are very important I know that this will make it worse and that can be the little nugget that you hold on to and you're like listen, there are things that we don't do because we know it'll make it worse. You know it can be hard to figure out the various ways to explain things to an owner, but I tell my owners too, like what I tell my listeners, which is the goal is a dog who is calm, comfortable and cooperative, and we're going to meet them partway with that cooperation. It calm, comfortable and cooperative and we're going to meet them partway with that cooperation. It's not obedience, it's cooperative, but we need them to be calm for it and there might be some work that we have to do for this dog to be touched, nevermind the nail trim. I think that a lot of the time we're assessing nail trim problems because that's the thing we're having difficulty doing, but the dog has a much bigger issue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I want to talk more about aggression, to kind of segueing from that, those issues that the dogs are experiencing and how it can manifest into aggression. But we are going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor and we'll be right back. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you are enjoying this episode. I have a very special offer that I am announcing again just before the Aggression and Dogs conference this year. You've heard me talk about the Aggression and Dogs Master Course on this podcast and for a limited time, to celebrate the fifth annual conference, I'm going to launch a bundle offer that includes the course and a whopping 28 webinars from the world's foremost experts on aggression. Yes, that's all of the webinars. The webinars alone would typically cost more than $900 to purchase together, but I'm including them for free in this special bundle deal with the all new Aggression and Dogs Master Course. That's right. I've updated the Master Course in 2024 with the latest advances in modern training and understanding of behavior, and just some of the topics for the webinars include how to break up a dog fight, assessing canine posture and movement, the genetics of aggression, dog-to-cat aggression, dog-to-child directed aggression, and treat and retreat with some of the most respected behavior pros in our field, including Suzanne Clothier, grisha Stewart, dr Amy Cook, dr Christina Spaulding, laura Monaco-Torelli, jen Shryock, trish McMillan, dr Tim Lewis, just to name a few. You'll receive 28 webinars, the master course, live group mentor sessions and access to the private Facebook group a value of over $3,000, all for just the price of the master course, which is $595. There will only be 50 bundles available in this offer and I'm going to drop a link to the bundle in the show notes for this episode. The offer will expire on October 31st 2024, which is just two weeks after the conference, though the bundle typically sells out quickly. So please take advantage if you are interested, head on over to the show notes for this episode in the podcast platform you're listening to and click on the Aggression and Dogs Master Course and Expert Webinar Bundle link.
Speaker 2:All right, we're back here with Chrissy Neumeier-Smith. We've been talking about grooming and now I want to jump into the topic of aggression and seeing aggression in the grooming context. What are some safety precautions other than muzzles? We, of course, talk about muzzles a lot on this podcast, but well, actually I would want to know more about what you think about which types of muzzles, but let's talk about safety in general. What are your top recommendations for groomers to stay safe in the grooming environment?
Speaker 1:So a lot of groomers use things like an Elizabethan collar, and that's pretty common because we're working on a part of their body where now they can breathe freely. They've got the Elizabethan collar. It can keep them from getting to us at their back end. But, frankly, the idea that they're aggressive because grooming is unpleasant, uncomfortable and or scary, and we really need to be thinking about the source, just like we do with any dog training that we're doing, you know like, okay, why is this dog finding it unpleasant and can we safely set up a scenario where this dog is now feeling safe but also we are not going to get hurt? There are a couple of things that groomers do that others don't do, which is like reach down to a dog you've never met oh, her name's Bella and she's always been good for grooming and reach down and pick that dog up.
Speaker 1:Think about the invasive things. Everything about grooming is evasive and intrusive. You know trying to teach groomers about least intrusive and minimally aversive when grooming is intrusive and in many cases, aversive just by what we need to do so to keep everything safe. Part of that is going to be setting some boundaries for when the dog is nervous, what we're going to do and let go of the idea that this grooming needs to be completed and maybe have a little checklist of what's most important today. Is it getting around those eyes? Is it getting the nails trimmed? Is it getting some length off? Is it the bath? And letting go of the idea that everything needs to be completed, because I'm trying to make groomers understand that we don't sell haircuts. We sell haircutting services and many of these dogs are not well-prepared for our services and in one fell swoop we could teach them to be terrified.
Speaker 2:How do you, from a business standpoint, how do you suggest groomers navigate that? Let's say, okay, because I'm unfamiliar with how that would be built or how that works. But let's say we've got to get nails done, hair trim, bath, you know the whole nine. And you go in there and like, okay, all we could do is the nail trims today or the bath today. Do you then send the dog home because you're noticing the dog's nervous and uncomfortable and you want to be following to make sure that this dog is comfortable and we're not doing any damage here to the dog's behavioral repertoire, so to speak? What do you do then? Or what do groomers do then? Do they still charge for the full session, or how does it work?
Speaker 1:I'm trying to encourage groomers to ask those four questions that we went over so that they have a better idea of what they're expecting. But also maybe that first grooming is the one where you're really finding out how this dog feels about it, and so because of that, you've already talked to your owners about listen, we're going to do a certain amount of time, Maybe it's by the timeframe. As a house call groomer, I will sometimes book somebody like listen, your dog's not going to be able to do a full grooming session, let's book one hour. It has a start and end. It has a price attached to it that does not refer to our outcome. You know, it's not like I bought a pretty head. So if we help people understand that this is the effort involved because these are professional services and not necessarily the nail trim or the haircut but we are working toward effective nail trimming, haircutting, bathing, drying for the future, I love that it's very similar to training, especially in aggression cases, is that we are not going to complete the product in one session.
Speaker 2:So a lot of it for me is the educational component in that initial exchange with the client just talking through things how it's going to work so you can set expectations. It sounds very similar in that regard.
Speaker 1:Very similar, very similar, and by doing that then your owner can ask you the questions and the owner can say, but wait, so I mean he needs to look good. You know we have company coming over this weekend and we can have those finer conversations, those more minute conversations about let me see what I can do to make his head pretty, but your dog isn't well prepared for this. Grooming is weird, it's really weird. We are touching every little, teeny, tiny millimeter of that dog, every little tiny spot we're in their gums, we're touching their teeth. We're all over the place on that dog and for a lot of our dogs that is really scary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now what's a conversation technique? You would have to convince the clients a little bit more of that, really advocating for their dog's needs and helping them understand, rather than the client wants a pretty dog for their guests coming over this weekend. I'm sure that conversation comes up a lot for you guys. And what are some tips for that? For groomers listening in?
Speaker 1:It does come up a lot and I know a lot of groomers are worried about what does that dog look like when they leave my shop.
Speaker 1:But that last little bit of I need to make him perfect is probably at that dog's past that dog's limit. So I actually started my own business back in 2000 because I was so tired of working with these dogs during a grooming appointment and getting them so that they're really good and having a boss tell me but you can't go home looking like that, you need to finish it. But he can't go home looking like that, you need to finish it. And knowing that I had made such progress and that the last 10 minutes dissolved into, you know, fear and snapping or whatever that dog does when they respond to fear, which might be aggression or it might be trying to jump off the table or get away from us, you know.
Speaker 1:So if in those last couple of minutes at all just made all of your work irrelevant and sometimes that's what groomers need to hear and owners need to hear like, oh yeah, I don't want to undo the good work that we're doing and also helping them understand the future Puppies that are being born right now in January of 2024 will have grooming needs till 2039. Are we going to fight with that dog that whole time? It just doesn't even make sense and sometimes that's what helps owners go whoa, yeah, that's a long time of fighting with a dog. We can teach them to be good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it puts things in perspective for sure for them. I want to take just a step back again to the safety precautions as well. You had mentioned the Elizabethan collar we had touched based on muzzles that could be used in some contexts. But what else would you recommend for groomers? Body language, reading like what are some of your top? Like if you had a brand new groomer and you're like you've got to stay safe here, what are the top? Some of the top other things that you would include.
Speaker 1:I can tell you that a lot of groomers are using tools like belly bands and the hammocks and muzzles and Elizabethan collars, and I'm not against those or really for those. I think that what's really important is that, no matter what we are using, it's about how the dog perceives this moment. This moment matters. Is the dog being held still so that we can get something completed, or is this dog actually finding this comforting? Things like hammocks and belly bands for an older dog who's having trouble standing some of them relax into that. Happy hoodies are another thing that it's almost like a terrycloth snood. It just goes up around their ears. It's almost like a terrycloth snood, like it just goes up around their ears. It's almost like a headband to help protect them from sound.
Speaker 1:Some dogs find that really reassuring. Other dogs find that really constricting and scary. So, no matter what we're using, our goal is to assess is this helping this dog have a better experience today and also as groomers? If you are really worried about a dog, I want you to take that inner knowledge you're picking up on something you know and say am I in over my head? Is this dog at a point that this is dangerous? Groomers are masters at body language. They learn that very, very quickly and they're really good at recognizing body language. What we're not well trained on is why that body language is happening, what it means and what we can do about it.
Speaker 2:Tell me more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you know when you, when you reach into a crate to pull a dog out, you know I want you to think about the dog grooming clientele, almost like shelter work. You know, many times we don't know these dogs. You know and you start noticing body language. You see that dog stiffen and give you the eye, but are you savvy enough with behavior to know what that means or how to help? But if we're always thinking, can I help return this dog to calm and help this dog cope with the situation they're in, that's a very safe mindset. Does that answer your question?
Speaker 2:Totally, and it completely resonates with the shelter side of things you were just using that example where, yes, they become really good shelter handlers meaning they are really good at reading body language and what could potentially happen next in terms of biting, snapping, growling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're three chess moves ahead. They see it and they're like I know what happens next.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and that just comes from hands-on experience. That's why I recommend trainers volunteer with shelters as much as they can, because that's the best way to get hands-on not only with the dogs but reading the dogs and reading recognizing body language. It's such a crucial skill to stay safe. But the underlying you touched on it really well there, chrissy is that the underlying emotions and what could be motivating that dog's body language or the emotional responses we're seeing, right, that can make the difference with how to really empathize and when to take next steps with that dog. And so, in that regard, how do you teach groomers to kind of know when to push or stop or push or stick? Sometimes they call it in training and you know you have.
Speaker 2:We were talking like examples before about you know you've got a dog mid-shampoo and then suddenly the dog is freezing or showing some signs. You're like uh-oh, you know. So it's not a situation where you can be like, oh, we're going to just stop because this dog is nervous. You know there's certain instances like that, but also instances you could be like mid-shave and be like do I continue with this shave? So talk us through that a little bit more.
Speaker 1:You know, I think if you can't get that dog to calm down again, you know, if you're not able to help return them to calm and returning them to calm doesn't necessarily mean you have to all stop it might be that you turn off a tool and maybe this dog you've already realized that this dog likes a little bit of petting Some of our toy breeds like a good snuggle. You know Some of our goldens just need somebody to. You know, reassure them, give them some baby talk. You know some of our goldens just need somebody to. You know, reassure them, give them some baby talk. You know it really depends on that dog and what that dog is motivated by. But if we circle back to, did I effectively help you calm down again and how do you feel when I turn the tool on? And that's part of why we need to be thinking about how the dog is experiencing this in this moment. Because if we just continue which is what I see a lot of groomers who are like boy, something happened to this dog in the past. I don't know what's going on, but maybe he needs some training. Well, they're continuing with what is a really unfortunate event in this dog's life. You know this dog is having a really hard time and they're having a hard time not giving us a hard time. That's a a big mind shift for many groomers.
Speaker 1:The dog grooming world is still very much um wrapped up in dominance and you know I don't want to say all groomers, but it's still very, very common to hear things like he needs to know better, he needs to respect you, and most of these problems we're seeing are not respect based. They are this is really uncomfortable, or this is frightening, or maybe they're uncomfortable because they are sore. We have a lot of health issues with our dogs that are still getting groomed. You know some of these dogs are experiencing hip pain and knee pain while we're trying to stand them in a tub and stand them on a table and pushing their boundaries further than they can handle. So it's really important for us to look at that individual dog and help our owners understand that I am trying to do what's right for your dog, for you and for your dog, and this is about helping your dog have the best experience so that we can continue on for the rest of their life you on for the rest of their life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I was just thinking along those lines of just like training. You start to get to know that individual dog and what, where they can be sort of made to go along a little bit further along. You kind of decide, okay, this dog is ready for the next steps versus this dog needs to stop, because you start to really recognize the conversation you're having with that particular animal right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Do you have another thought on that?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that if we're helping the dogs be calm and that's my mantra, I say it all the time but checking to see if they're comfortable with things, then you're also being more aware of when that change happens.
Speaker 1:So if you're actively thinking about like okay, well, wait a minute. I noticed him get uncomfortable when I picked up the tool Well, that's something that we can apply a particular process to right. We can create a new CER for that. But often we're just thinking like nail trimming is the thing that that dog was worried about, but was it, you know, like let's step back and notice when we lose that calmness, when that dog starts to stiffen or give us the eye or try to jump off the table or whatever that thing may be. But if we're focusing in on calm and always being aware of what this dog is experiencing, we're more likely to notice when the change happened and then we can really assess how do we fix that little piece? There are lots of puzzle pieces, which is fascinating for us as trainers For groomers. That's the frustrating part, just teach me.
Speaker 1:I don't want them to bite me. They don't find that part neat.
Speaker 2:Yes. So on that note of biting dogs, what are some considerations for dogs that do have a bite history in a grooming setting? So client comes to a groomer, like, okay, I've been trying groomers but the last groomer we got fired from because the dog bit the groomer so we can muzzle the dog. We're working at a home with our trainer, so they're making the steps. But considerations for both groomers and trainers for dogs that do have a bite history, do you pick certain groomers or do you have somebody that's very experienced? Do you have like a network of people? Tell me more about what you do with the dogs that bite.
Speaker 1:You know, I know a lot of groomers don't want to use muzzles. However, I feel that if you have a dog with a bite history, first thing I want to do is teach them to be comfortable with a muzzle. And to be comfortable with a muzzle, not just wear one, but to be comfortable with one, so that we can each perceive that like, ah, biting is no longer on the table, which for some dogs. They realize that I know that's very anthropomorphic and how can I prove that? But they change their tactic if they are wearing a muzzle and we're still proceeding as if that dog's comfort is the most important thing. So hopefully they're learning.
Speaker 1:Hmm wait, I wiggled a little bit and they tried to calm me down again. This isn't the party I had at the last place. You know. This isn't the way it went down last time. We're making those efforts to help the dog be calm, but there are. If you are inexperienced or you're worried, honor that and send that dog to somebody else. You know, and I don't want to recommend meds or not recommend meds, but let's talk to our veterinarian and have our owners talk to our veterinarian about. Is there something that this dog maybe we can help this dog have a better experience in these moments and set it up for the most success.
Speaker 2:Is there like, for instance, with the training world? We have folks like myself that specialize in aggression. Do you see the same thing happening in the grooming world, where some groomers are like I will take the biting dogs because that's my specialty. I like working with the fearful dogs. The dogs that have issues with grooming is like really at a high level. Are there people focusing on that and your side of things?
Speaker 1:You know there really are. There are a lot of people out there saying like, hey, we can do better. There are lots of different approaches, but there are people who are definitely like, yeah, I will. I want to work with your shy pup, I want to work with your shy pup, I want to work with your scared pup or I want to work with your aggressive dog. I train some of those people, so I have some of those people going through my course. But there are other ways to do it too.
Speaker 1:I know a lot of groomers have taken the fear-free certifications because they are really interested in this. But what happens is is that it can be really tricky if they work for somebody and they have a business owner telling them like I don't understand how we make money on this. You know, I don't understand how this works. We do haircuts, but sometimes I can help them reach that business owner by saying an injured dog can cost you thousands of dollars and this is unsafe. Doing it the old way is unsafe. If we set this up to be as safe as possible and we're charging for our time, we have lost nothing.
Speaker 2:Yes, I like that, and an injured employee will cost thousands more when you think about it. So you know, you want somebody taking every step to ensure that dog doesn't bite.
Speaker 1:I mean, I have business insurance, but I have a $500 deductible. You know, a nicked dog could easily cost a thousand, a couple thousand. You know like injuries happen. We are using sharp instruments and often we are a millimeter away from their skin.
Speaker 2:think about what it takes to trim near an eye yeah, a lot of skill yeah in my mind, because that's not my area of expertise now and nor do I want it to be at this point, but so so let's talk about food a little bit, because we haven't talked about using food. With regards to safety and distraction, you know you've seen some. I've seen some techniques where you know, somebody might smear peanut butter on the side of a scale or use some sort of food tube or something that the dog can be distracted by while the procedure is being done. Do you see that commonly used we're seeing it more and more.
Speaker 1:But there are some concerns with using food in a grooming environment, and part of that is related to how much history you took on that individual dog, Because some of our dogs are resource guarders and owners are never going to think to tell a groomer that. So there should be, if you're going to use food, some discussions about what is he like with food. Should be, if you're going to use food, some discussions about what is he like with food. Because if you can imagine a dog that doesn't want anyone to go near his dish and you're trying to trim his nails while he licks a lick mat, that could be really dangerous. But also all of the other dogs in the room could have an effect because of that food. You know, like I smell peanut butter, there's bacon happening over there, or the squeeze cheese, and maybe it just makes them extra silly and wiggly. Maybe they start resource guarding Like this table smells like something awesome and I don't want anyone near my table, you know. So we have to really think about that.
Speaker 1:In the grooming setting, we are not just working with one dog and it's not our dog. I don't know this dog the same way I know my own dogs. It's a little bit more like would you do it with a shelter dog in a room full of other shelter dogs. You know a dog that maybe you don't know all that well and doesn't know you. But for people who are using treats often what they're doing is using, like the liver treats or something like that that doesn't create a mess, it's be easier to clean up, Doesn't have lingering scent you know that well. We can't really perceive what dogs smell, but isn't super charged up scent, right Like it's just kind of a treat, something yummy, some morsel of something or other, and doing a lot of cleaning in between, probably booking their day differently so that they can have a dog with a really treat heavy session, which often requires two people.
Speaker 2:That's what I was just going to ask you is how to? Because you had mentioned earlier, there's so many tools. We've got so much going on with our hands already. It's almost impossible if you're going to be treating a dog while grooming or doing some actual procedure. So that's where those licky mats or those food tubes something that can dispense the food without having your hands on can be helpful. But yes, it's absolutely important to look at the resource guarding component as well.
Speaker 1:And also is it going to create a mess on that dog's face that you're trying to trim. Right, you know that dog's now licking everything and you're like I got your face all nice and dry, I think, because as humans we often get our haircut wet. You might not know that to do a nice, proper dog haircut, we do that dry. So they've been bathed, dried and now we're doing a haircut. And if there's peanut butter in their hair that's not going to be very helpful.
Speaker 2:So it's very context. In situation specific, it sounds like when you're going to use food, when you can't use food, and you know. Something else I thought about, as well as the comorbidity with some resource guarding dogs also have handling issues, so they don't want to be touched and as trainers we sometimes see this a resource guarding case dog that guards their food bowl also doesn't like to be handled and that typically is revealed in the historical data we collect or the information we get from the client which customers don't really give groomers that information which?
Speaker 1:is why I encourage those four questions Like know what you're getting into? Because owners think, well, I'm just going to pay to have somebody do it, you know. And they don't realize that that's it's not our job to get hurt. A lot of these owners don't realize they have a problem. Of course he goes crazy if somebody goes near his food dish or I would never go near him if he had a bone on the couch. We can't sit on the couch if he's chewing a toy, but they don't tell us that. So even if we want to use something like treats, it requires a little bit more forethought to find out what's going on with this particular dog. But maybe we didn't think about that with the dog two tables down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, a lot of these issues can be alleviated by just good communication with the client and asking the right questions, and I love that there's like this educational component to it too for our clients, meaning we're them or or giving them the information they need to be. What else to be aware of? It's not just send the dog off like to to auto body shop and it's like boom comes back. It's.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of details we want to know about to ensure the best possible outcome for all involved and I use auto body shop examples that there's a point where if I bring my car to the shop, they give me the brake job I need or they don't do the brake work. I don't get to pick and choose what happens in my brake job, you know. So if we're like listen, as your groomer, I need to help him be comfortable with this. I can't give you the nail trim you thought you wanted If it involves like four people and a muzzle and just get it done, like that's trying to tell the mechanic how to do my breaks. And as a professional we need to be able to say like listen, we know that makes it worse, that's dangerous. Someone's going to get hurt, much like your break job. If you don't get your break job done right, it's going to make things worse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's a good analogy. So let's segue into a little bit about breeds, because we do like to talk about breed characteristics on this show. So we could talk about it from a grooming and a training standpoint. So grooming, obviously you might think of doodles or something where it's going to be different than grooming a Doberman. But what about from the behavior aspect? So from your trainer lens, if you were to say, okay, we've got to be considerate around this particular breed because they're more prone to be suspicious of handling or touching, would you say there's any particular breeds you're cautious of or just more aware of when you're starting the grooming process?
Speaker 1:I would say I talk to a lot of groomers about understanding our terriers better. Because if we look at what terriers were bred to do, their I'm uncomfortable response is often aggressive, like hey, I'm uncomfortable, they're not going to freeze, they're not going to try to run away Like that. We bred that into them. So to know that ahead of time and just help them be comfortable so that we don't see that response. They aren't particularly aggressive. They're not naughty dogs and I hate the term spicy, but people use spicy but if we look at what they were bred to do, when they're uncomfortable, yeah, they're going to go off and do a kill rat behavior. So we need to think about that. But also, I'd say it's not so much the breeds as much as it's some of these doodles.
Speaker 1:These poodle mixes have really complicated coats and lots of complicated grooming needs. So there are a lot of problems with those breeds if they are not well-versed in the kind of things we need to do. Because by five months old a doodle is probably matted and they're coming in for their first grooming at five months old. They probably need to be clipped down all the way, probably need to be clipped down all the way and that's exhausting, first of all, like the. The kind of expectations for some of these coat types and their grooming needs mean that they need to do a longer endurance run. They get touched all over with more stuff and things, so my border collies don't know what it's like to have their body clipped, because that's not part of what their breed gets. But these doodles and we're seeing so many of them we need to think about like this dog is going to be asked a lot more. They're going to need to do a lot more than like the average golden.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, doodles are the talk of the town for, I think, trainers and groomers, and I love them.
Speaker 1:I love them, but if you're not thinking about their we referenced Kim Brophy's book quite a bit like but the standard poodle and a golden retriever, that's a golden doodle, that's all hunting dog Like we would. We would not expect a young golden retriever to put up with the kind of things that we're trying to do with a young doodle. You know they're an adolescent, they're goofy. Young doodle. They're an adolescent, they're goofy. They have no patience at all. Yet they have a coat type that's going to take two hours or more.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, interesting point, interesting point. So I'd like to hear about maybe one case that you've had a grooming experience that really resonated in your mind, whether it was something really difficult or something that had a really wonderful outcome. Can you think of something you can share with the audience?
Speaker 1:So I had a little old dog who when she would get excited she was, she came to me as a new customer because she was starting to have seizures if she got really excited. So at 16, like starting up with a new groomer and they thought, you know, let's just do whatever we can with her and trying to help her be comfortable with things that maybe she was never comfortable with before. And we did, and we did not have any seizures, we didn't get her worked up and I think a lot of people would have given up on the dog that age. But she can't be sedated for grooming, she's much too old for that. She's frail, she's fragile, she has health issues. So to think about, how can we come up with a plan that's going to work for an older dog with known medical issues? And I circle back to can we just work on calm, comfortable and know? And that's what we did, because even an older dog who may not have the cognitive ability to learn new things can respond well to someone trying to help them feel comfortable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it resonates so much when you think about an example of somebody you know restraining an old, a senior person you know, and just holding it about, just getting it done with, and just how awful that would be and we don't think about that sometimes with dogs.
Speaker 1:And if I had known her earlier in her life, we might have avoided all of that instead of groomings that she never felt comfortable with, but now, as an older, frail dog, the behavior became hard for the groomer to complete. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Absolutely yes. It's more about what the dog is experiencing than what the groomer to complete. Does that make sense? Absolutely yes, it's more about what the dog is experiencing than what the groomer is experiencing. Yes, the moral here is let's get our dogs into these grooming environments early on and let's get them acclimated in the way we want them to so they're comfortable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it, and dogs that came to me fairly young, with a fairly young with. You know a bite history. I'm thinking of one particular Bichon. When I got him used to it and calm about it that never came back. I remember one day we were grooming and I nicked his pad. So here he's bleeding and it didn't come back. You know that trust is long lasting and if they can learn to be comfortable with the process, I felt so awful. The poor little guy. But we're using sharp tools on moving dogs and it wasn't really his fault, just you know. But it did not turn into. I'm going to bite you now. It did not revert back to what he was when I met him.
Speaker 2:Yes, that trust and that relationship was built.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That currency was in that account for you for that little time teaching them to be comfortable with the things.
Speaker 1:So therefore it wasn't a thing that hurt him. Does that make sense? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, chrissy. Where can people find you if you want? They want to learn more about your courses, what you're teaching, where can they go?
Speaker 1:So I have a podcast Creating Great Grooming Dogs, which each episode is a 20-minute training session, really a discussion session about some aspect of teaching dogs to be good for grooming or other types of cooperative care. Right now there are 192 episodes, which is about 63 hours of free content. I also teach at Whole Pet Grooming Academy and I'm one of the educators there and I teach the Master Groomer Behavior Specialist Diploma Program there. So that's another good way to find me, and I have another podcast that I started up, but the Knowledgeable Pet Owner. I started that up with a couple other groomer friends one who's also a vet tech and one who does a lot of business speaking for the grooming industry. That was another project we're doing to help owners and help owners understand a little bit more about owning their dog and neat things that they can do with their dog.
Speaker 2:Fantastic, and as usual, I'll link to all of those in the show notes. And Chrissy will also be doing something special for aggressivedogcom later this year, so stay tuned for that as well. Chrissy, thank you so much. This was wonderful talking with you and I hope to have you on again in the future.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:I'm really glad we had the opportunity to do an episode on all things grooming and enjoyed this conversation with Christine. Things grooming and enjoyed this conversation with Christine. Stay tuned, because Christine is also giving a course, along with our good friend and colleague, monique Fairchild, for AggressiveDogcom in the fall of 2024, on safe handling, for any time we need to provide care for dogs, whether in the grooming setting or in the veterinary setting, which is Monique's specialty. These two have teamed up to create a one-of-a-kind course that is not available anywhere else. So stay tuned for more details on that, as I'll be sending out an email to everyone subscribed to the newsletter, which you can do, if you haven't already done so, by going to aggressivedogcom and don't forget, while you're there.
Speaker 2:You can learn more about helping dogs with aggression, from the Aggression in Dogs Master Course to webinars from world-renowned experts and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs. We also have the Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog-to-dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear-based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends, friends, friends, friends, friends, friends, friends, friends friends, friends, friends, my friends.
Speaker 1:I smell peanut butter. There's bacon happening over there.