The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Enhancing Emotional Support for Humans and Animals with Valerie Bogie
What are the emotional challenges faced by both professionals and pet owners? This episode promises to shed light on this intriguing question as we sit down with Valerie Bogie who has a unique breadth of experience in both animal care and veterinary social work. With over two decades of experience, Valerie shares her incredible journey from feeling overwhelmed and bullied in the workplace to finding her calling in veterinary social work, where empathy, active listening, and resiliency are key.
Valerie and I explore the unique applications that address human needs wherever a human-animal bond exists. We discuss the various levels of social work, from individual therapy to broader policy changes, and dive into key components like intentional well-being, grief and bereavement, and animal-assisted interventions. Valerie also highlights the link between human and animal violence, offering a comprehensive look at how this growing field is making a significant impact within the professional community. Don't miss this enriching conversation that promises to enhance both your professional practice and personal well-being!
ABOUT VALERIE:
Valerie is a passionate advocate for enhancing emotional support in the animal world. With a career spanning over two decades, she has garnered extensive experience across diverse animal care settings, including a veterinary hospital, an animal shelter, a veterinary behavior practice, training dogs, and caring for exotic animals in various zoos and aquariums across the country.
Valerie’s journey took a transformative turn when she discovered Veterinary Social Work—a field dedicated to addressing the emotional well-being of humans wherever there is a human-animal bond. Realizing the profound impact this support can have, Valerie became dedicated to spreading awareness and providing resources about this growing and expansive field.
Valerie is currently working on her Master of Science in Social Work (MSSW) degree with a Veterinary Social Work (VSW) certificate at the University of Tennessee- Knoxville, and will graduate in May of 2025. Valerie works for Insight Animal Behavior Services and GRAZE (Growing Resiliency for Aquarium and Zoo Employees) focusing on human support services. She loves sharing Emotional CPR and building customized workshops and presentations on various topics through her own business, Valerie Bogie, LLC.
Links mentioned in episode:
Linktree: linktr.ee/valeriebogievsw
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https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/bundles/the-aggression-in-dogs-master-course-and-expert-webinar-bundle-2024
Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com
Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
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Webinars, courses, and more!
If you work with humans which is just about everybody listening to this podcast then this episode is for you. Valerie Bogey joins me to talk about all of the difficult circumstances we can face when the animals we care about often require us to also be skillful, empathetic and compassionate with their caretakers. From active listening to building resiliency, to avoiding burnout and compassion fatigue, we dive deep into the human side of the work we do. In this episode, Valerie's experience in the animal world made her realize the need for more emotional understanding and support for the human side of the human-animal bond. Since 2000, she has worked in a variety of settings, which include the vet hospital, animal shelter, veterinary behavior practice, dog training and caring for exotic animals at several zoos and aquariums across the country. Once she learned about veterinary social work, she realized it was what had been missing from her animal care experiences. Valerie is currently working on her Master's of Science in Social Work degree with a veterinary social Work specialty at University of Tennessee, knoxville.
Speaker 1:Valerie works for Insight, animal Behavior Services and GRAZE, which is Growing Resiliency for Aquarium and Zoo Employees, focusing on human support services. She leads a variety of workshops, including Emotional CPR, which focuses on connecting and active listening to support someone going through a difficult time and if you are enjoying the bitey end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there's a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from October 11th to 13th 2024 in Scottsdale, arizona, with both in-person and online options. You can learn more about the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues. I also have a wide variety of webinars, upcoming courses, videos and articles, all from the foremost experts in training and behavior. We are your one-stop shop for all things related to aggression in dogs.
Speaker 1:Hey guys, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. This is a very special episode because we are talking about the human side of the work we do and I'm very excited to be diving into this topic because it's not talked about enough in our industry and I have an expert on that topic here. Valerie Bogey is here joining us and we're going to take a deep dive into all things human and the behavior work we do. So welcome to the show, valerie.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:So I want to start first. You know kind of getting a little bit more about your background. What got you into this? Because you've done a lot of work with animals and now you're also helping the humans.
Speaker 2:So what kind of you know motivates you to get into that role? Yeah, so I have played a role in many animal arenas so I have, you know, currently behavior consultant for Insight Animal Behavior Services. I have, you know, been a zookeeper for over 16 years. I've worked in animal shelters, I worked in an animal hospital, so I'm currently pet sitting right now.
Speaker 2:So a lot of different spaces and I got burned out. I loved the animals, I loved training the animals, I loved so much about working in the zoo and aquarium field, but I just felt overwhelmed. I felt I was in a situation where I was being bullied and wasn't really being heard or seen by management and at some point you have to make that decision, and I felt like I had a really great run of my career around being in multiple facilities and working with amazing animals and working all the weekends, working early, working late, missing holidays with your family. That all takes a toll on you as well, and so, if there is additional challenges, just personnel wise, that just makes it almost unbearable some days. So, yeah, I made a decision to leave that industry in 2021 and then started working with Insight and kind of started poking around looking for my next big thing.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about oh, do I want to be a life coach? Do I want to be a counselor? Do I want to do something with humans? Because behavior is behavior. You know, we're mammals and there's just so many similarities and I just find it fascinating so many of the parallels that are there.
Speaker 2:Just our animals can't talk to us, and so I wanted to kind of use some of those skills in a new way and then came across the Veterinary Human Support Certificate through University of Tennessee, knoxville.
Speaker 2:So that is under the umbrella of the Veterinary Social Work Program. But this certificate was specifically designed for people in the animal world who want to people better. So that program really hits you know kind of the four different areas of veterinary social work and really was the introduction to veterinary social work for me and I was hooked. So I mean I completed that certificate in a year. I think you can have up to like four or five to finish it and I was like you know, just you know, off to the races with everything and then decided to pursue the master's because I just realized learning about veterinary social work, some of the terms and just everything that I was learning, I just had that aha moment, like if I would have had this type of support in my career maybe I'd still be there, but I didn't. And now I'm trying to be that person for others so that you know they can make those decisions for themselves but also learn how to take care of themselves a little bit better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting because a lot of us that get into working with animals usually leave a field where we're sick of the people and it's kind of the opposite. Here you went from I'm working, because when you were in marine mammals and zoos, yes, you're working with people, but at a much lesser degree than if we're doing behavior consulting, going to people's homes, right, a lot of days are, yes, you're working with your co-workers, but you're working with the animals, and then you go from that environment to okay, now I just want to work with the people a lot more, which is an interesting thing.
Speaker 1:So what's motivated you in that regard? Is it like, you know, I want to fix people because I'm tired of them, or it's like I want a better understanding of how to navigate conversation, like what kind of drove you to that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the big takeaway and actually that's one of my pet peeves is when people say oh, I work with animals because I don't like people, because that immediately puts others on the defensive, because you're always caring for animals on a team, I'm not going to go to work seven days a week to take care of every single animal.
Speaker 2:That's not realistic. You have to be part of a team, you have to communicate, and so I think that is part of the detriment, where people think they're entering into this animal world and it's just you and the animals and that's never the case, right, like you said, like for a consultant that's going into people's homes or meeting you know, multiple meetings on training sessions, on Zoom. Yes, you have co workers and supervisors, just like any other job when you're working at a zoo, and then you have to do public presentations and you have to do you know, like you have all these other hats that you have to wear. So I think it really was just having that lived experience and recognizing it didn't matter what state I was living in, what facility I was working at, what my job title was, that there was still these underlying themes that I was noticing and no one was really talking about it.
Speaker 1:Interesting. It's kind of like how I started with aggression, because you saw a need to fill a space where there wasn't a lot of information. So well, thank you for filling that space now because, let's face it, there's not a lot of talk about this, especially in the dog training community, and so let's kind of just define the role of veterinary social worker, because I think when people hear the term social worker, it's almost like when people hear the term like dog trainer, it could be a lot of different things. There's lots of layers, lots of different roles. So talk us through that for anybody that's maybe not familiar with the term veterinary social worker or even social worker.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so quiz question what do you think a social worker does?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So for me, when I hear the term social worker, you're thinking somebody that's just been reported to the authorities, right, and you're like, okay, now you got this role and maybe sometimes you're helping people that you know need therapy. But there's not a lot of definitive answers for me when I hear that term. You know now I know because I've met you, but initially I had no idea. So you know, I'm glad I'm getting educated on exactly all these different roles, so I'd love to hear more about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and that is a perfect example. I feel like your answer is on par with pretty much most of the people that I've talked to, so kind of defining social work first, and I can even back up to why I chose social work over some of the other mental health professional titles. I chose social work because really it is a profession that is looking to help individuals, families, but then also communities and really identifying problems in systems and working towards policy change, and there's also a code of ethics. So when you become a social worker you are bound by a code of ethics, Like that's huge, right, and so you kind of have a cheat sheet of oh, this is a challenging situation. I can go back to something, and you just know that everyone's playing by the same rules and has had the same education. So to me, social work just has a broader lens and they actually call that, you know, micro is where you're doing more of the one-on-one clinical therapy, like a therapist counselor. And then there's the mezzo, which might be more of like the group work or community work, and then there's also the macro and that's really the people that are working towards policy change and you know campaigning and things like that. So there's so many different layers to it. So I liked that flexibility where I didn't have to be put in a box of up. You can only do one on one counseling. No, I can do so much more with that. So that's why I really liked social work in general.
Speaker 2:And then veterinary social work is focusing on the human needs. Anywhere that there is a human animal bond, so pretty much anyone with an animal in their life, anyone listening to this podcast right now, could benefit from veterinary social work. So, as the name implies, it was originally designed to focus on the needs of veterinarians in clinics and then also the clients in clinics. Right, If you're getting hard news about your animal or you're saying goodbye to your animal, it's nice to have a liaison or someone that is trained a little bit more in depth about the emotional aspect of some of those decisions that you're making. But then also being there for the staff who have to do those hard things every single day. And veterinary social work has kind of four different quadrants. We call them. It was actually started in 2002 at University of Tennessee, Knoxville, by Dr Elizabeth Strand. So those four main components one of them is intentional well-being. That was actually renamed, so it used to be called compassion fatigue and conflict management, which is something I know we want to dive into today.
Speaker 2:But as you've said before, words matter, and so this was an intentional change to call it intentional well-being, right? Because then that kind of shifts that focus into being more proactive than just constantly reactive, right? So-?
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. Yeah, so that's one. Okay, so that's the first one.
Speaker 2:Second one, grief and bereavement. And that one I think is so interesting because obviously, culturally we all process grief just on the human side of the. You know human grief if you lose a person in your life differently, and then what does that look like? When it's a pet, right, there's still a lot of things going on there. And then what if it's your animal at the zoo? You don't own that animal, it's not your pet, but it's not your coworker, it's not your friend, right? So there's a lot of gray areas. So one of the terms I learned when kind of taking that deeper dive is disenfranchised grief, and that was another aha moment for me. So disenfranchised grief is grief that is not really acknowledged by the general population or public. So we could put pet death in there, right, because some people are like oh, it's just a pet, like, are you kidding?
Speaker 2:Like I spend more time with that pet than most of the humans in my life, right, but it's the same thing with the animals at the zoo. Or you know what if we lose a smaller animal that isn't publicized on social media for that facility? And then how does that make you feel? And so there's just so many layers because there's different types of grief. I could talk about that for another hour.
Speaker 2:The third one is animal-assisted interventions. I think that's a pretty common one when people think veterinary social work, oh, you are a therapist and you have a dog that people can pet while they're coming to therapy, right, which is great. And not just dogs, right. There's equine therapy, where people can go to learn about horses, take care of horses as part of their therapy. And then that fourth one is the link between human and animal violence, and so that one's really looking at the statistics of if there is animal abuse, a lot of times there's human abuse in that household and vice versa. So, really, looking at community level initiatives of how are we tracking this? How are these entities communicating so we can track this better and help everyone in the household?
Speaker 2:Domestic violence shelters. Some are now offering that you could bring your pet with you, and that wasn't always the case. Or there's networks where someone can secretly foster your animal for you so you can get to safety. And just there's just four, but each one is got a lot of depth to it, which also, I think, is very attractive, when you're talking about veterinary social work, to just know a little bit more about those quadrants.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really helpful to understand the different areas that you might go into. And the question I was going to ask you. It's so new to the field. It seems like there's not a lot of veterinary social workers, I'm assuming out there. Is there a number that you're aware of? In my search, actually, when I was looking for guests on this topic I've been searching for years only a few names come up to me. So it's what is your feedback on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it is still kind of niche and growing and it's amazing, you know, for something that was started in 2002. You know, I recently, earlier in the year, went to the WVC conference in Vegas and was talking to people about veterinary social work. People didn't understand what it was or had never heard of it before. So I'm like, oh wow, that's a good indication. We still have a lot of work to do right. But yeah, as far as numbers, I don't know off the top of my head, because there are more programs now, so it's not just University of Tennessee anymore, there are other colleges that have veterinary social work as an option, which is amazing. And also, too, for someone that is already a social worker and then finds veterinary social work and it's like, wow, this is it, I want to do this.
Speaker 2:There's actually now post-grad certificates. You can add that additional education on, even if you're already completed your school for social work. But yeah, there's not a lot of them. And that's also trying to spread the word, because you might be listening to this and think, oh wow, that veterinary human support certificate sounds pretty interesting. You can take the full certificate. You can get the modules individually. So you know, just kind of taking that little steps towards educating people, getting people the awareness of what it is, because then it's just going to spread Right and we're going to get more people. But yeah, it can be difficult, you know, doing a search, you know there's some states that have a few and things like that. So we're really working, working on getting more. But yeah, it's definitely an area of need if anyone wants to join me getting more.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, it's definitely an area of need. If anyone wants to join me, yeah, I'm sure the listeners, hearing everything you're saying, is probably like, yeah, we do need to see all these spaces filled, because everything you're talking about on those four quadrants, so to speak, there's absolutely a demand for all of those services and all those topics. It's just so badly needed. So, thank you for the work you're doing. Okay, let's dive into the challenges. Now. Let's talk about, you know, some of the challenges that happen in our work. You know, let's kind of focus, maybe for a moment on what trainers and consultants are going into, these behavior cases and you've had experience with that too in the work you've done. So let's think aggression cases, some of the more difficult, challenging behavior cases. What are some common things and you can even dive into all those four quadrants if you want but what are some of the most common challenges you're seeing and that you hear about and that people are coming to you for?
Speaker 2:I think one of the hardest things is that the client is dealing with trigger stacking probably just like their dog is dealing with trigger stacking probably just like their dog is. So the capacity that they have to absorb information and then retain and then do it on their own is very small. So something that we use at Insight is actually the Zerat burden interview, so it's a caregiver burden scoring. So originally it was created to measure the caregiver burden of humans taking care of other humans. Right, because we already know that that is really tough If you're the primary caretaker for someone, whether they have a disability or they have a chronic illness, whatever that looks like. That is hard, that is really hard. So they have scientifically been able to alter that change the word to pet took out a couple questions that didn't make as much sense for the pet realm of things, and then we put that in our new patient behavior questionnaire. So every single client, before I meet them, I'm reading over their questionnaire before we have our hour-long intake assessment and you can almost quantify their stress level based on that number. So it's huge because it just gives you at least some frame of reference, right, as far as are they thinking about you know. Then we ask a couple of follow-up questions at the end, like have you considered rehoming? Have you considered euthanasia? Right. And so we at least kind of know where they're at, because we want to meet them there.
Speaker 2:That's exactly the point, right. So we're not saying, oh, you're just a number and you know, obviously there's so much more that goes into it but just having some data point to say, ok, here's where we're starting. When you are walking in the door and we are having our first interactions, where are you? Because the goal, similar with working with the dog, we want to decrease those stress levels, right? So we've actually started sending that caregiver burden scoring in some follow-up emails as well. So like the three-month, the six-month mark. So we're going to have some really cool data, hopefully to say like, okay, after this many months of treatment, or looking into the correlations between the number, so the caregiver burden score versus the diagnosis for the dog, right, because we know like, you said, aggression is tough, separation anxiety is just as tough, because you know, a lot of times you can't leave your house so you're isolated.
Speaker 2:If you have aggressive dog, you're isolated, you're not meeting other people, you can't talk to someone that you know. We're not going to dog parks, we're not stopping and talking to people on walks like that is not part of just the daily life. Or maybe I can't have people over to my house right. So there's a lot of different ways. But you know, just having kind of that starting block because the scoring goes up into the 70s, but pretty much anything over 17 is considered a significant burden. So if I'm meeting with someone and they're in like the 50s, that's pretty high.
Speaker 2:So I already know that I am going to adjust how much homework I'm giving them, I'm going to slow things down, I'm going to make sure I'm giving them space to talk and share things versus someone who is, yeah, maybe at a 20. You know, obviously there's other parts that go into it, like what's their training background, like how much work have they done already and things like that. But just being mindful of how stressed out they are, because, just like we can't train a dog that is over threshold a new trick. At that moment, we can't train a human that is over threshold something new either. So I think that is something that can benefit anyone that is working with pet owners to start to think about things in that lens.
Speaker 1:Is that something that somebody needs training on how to use properly, or is it something that somebody can learn? You get the form and they see the questions and then the score will give them at least a baseline of where to go. Now, obviously the social work part would require the training, or, you know, if we start to get into the human therapy part of things. But as far as a baseline of seeing where our clients is, that something a trainer can use just without any training necessarily formal training, I should say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's available and I can share the scientific studies, like in the show notes. We just have it as like a PDF and yeah, it's basically like a zero through four. So there's a. You know, you can choose. Never, sometimes, always, you know, whatever the ratings are for that. So that, I think, is something that anyone can use.
Speaker 2:The nice thing about it as well is, if the client doesn't have a safe space to share some of this information, sometimes reading those questions is really helpful for them, because, you know, sometimes we just minimize things like, oh, it's not that bad, it's not that bad, and then you start reading some of these questions.
Speaker 2:Like you know, are you afraid of what's to come? Or you know just some of these questions that they're filling out before you know they meet with us. I think that can also be a really helpful exercise for the clients just to kind of be in that headspace of like, oh wow, this is worse than I was really perceiving, or I have. You know, I haven't been really fully grasping, you know the depth of this, this issue, or how it really is affecting me. So I think it can be helpful for both ends and, yeah, you don't need any training to be able to utilize that scoring, because, I mean, in a perfect world everyone would have that. So then you'd be able to just, you're collecting data on the pet, but you're collecting data on the human as well, and how helpful is that Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a spectacular tool because it's something I, you know, tell my students all the time. You really need to understand the human side. And how do we get that information? Typically, we're doing it in person. We're reading the person's facial expressions, their body language, we're hearing their story, and I love that there's this tool that can get some of that information ahead of time. Because, let's face it, we do it for the dogs all the time. You know where does your dog sleep, you know all those questions we would typically have on our intake forms. So either we do it in person or we send it out ahead of time. We don't do that for the humans and if we do, it's very minimal. You know it's so minimal.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, and I would agree, I think the burden of the caregiver or these pet guardians that are in these challenging cases is probably the most significant issue. I see as well, and I would argue, that separation anxiety cases often have more of a burden because of the limitations, the extreme limitations on not leaving the dog alone versus, you know, aggression case, if it's like a stranger danger case you just have to worry about when strangers come over, versus such a significant impact on their lifestyle. Okay, so we talked about burden. What other, some other common challenges you would say are top of the list for these behavior cases from the client side?
Speaker 2:From the client side. I think they're probably dealing with, you know, the burnout and the compassion fatigue as well, right Like so the caregiver burden is huge. But then also, I feel like when people get to us, you know as a veterinary behaviorist practice, get to us, you know, as a veterinary behaviorist practice, they have tried so much, you know, and we could talk about this again forever. But just the gray areas of the dog training industry, right? So someone has said that they are a behaviorist and or they do a board and train, or they do you know. So they're doing all these things, they're spending all this money and time and energy spending and just hoping that it's going to work, but just not always having the guidance or education to understand why some of those might not be as fruitful as others. So I think a lot of times too, they are just tired.
Speaker 2:I'm sure you've seen it in plenty of your cases where they're just like you're my last hope. You've seen it in plenty of your cases where they're just like you're my last hope, this is it If you can't fix this, but then what kind of pressure does that put on your dog trainer when you tell them? Or your veterinary health professional. You're my last hope, gosh, like then. Now we are transferring that burden over to the professional that you're seeking help for, and I think that also you know there's burden transfer scoring surveys that are for veterinarians. I haven't seen one yet for dog trainers, but I imagine that could probably be tweaked, but there's surveys for that too, so you could kind of collect data on yourself to say, okay, well, how, how much is all of this that I am intaking on a constant, daily basis really affecting me?
Speaker 1:Yeah it's. You know clients are going to be exasperated and sometimes embarrassed too about their dog's behavior. You know why. Or they're blaming themselves. You know they're thinking, oh, this is my fault, or I'm not doing this or I'm not being. You know, quote alpha enough. And they have all these, all this different noise coming in from different angles. Enough, and they have all these different noise coming in from different angles. So and I definitely want to jump into the trainer side but as trainers and consultants, what are some things we can do to help clients that are feeling this incredible burden, this exasperation, this embarrassment, all these emotions that can come into these cases? What can we do as trainers if we're not necessarily social workers? But let's talk through some of the tools that you use.
Speaker 2:So I am an educator for emotional CPR and so that was actually part of the veterinary human support certificates. And the whole basis of emotional CPR is training peers so just regular human, not a practitioner or an expert or clinician how to help other people better. And so it really is a course in active listening, because if active listening was not modeled for you when you grew up, you do not have that skill, but luckily you can build that skill right. So it's something you can definitely work on. If you are aware of that gap. When someone is hiring you and paying you for your expertise and help, it makes it very easy to kind of come in and like steamroll someone, right, because you're like oh, I have your bullet points, you want to get through, you have all these concepts, you have these techniques, you have all this information that you basically kind of want to like word vomit at them because you want to make sure that that client is seeing the value in you as a professional. So sometimes I think we confuse that quantity over quality. So I think some of the best ways that we can support clients is to listen and actually be quiet, and that's something anyone can do and, like you said, it's reading the body language of that person, it's asking them questions and giving them that invitation to share. And something that is really hard to get over at first when you're working on active listening is the silence. It's uncomfortable for a lot of people where they just start talking just to fill space, where it gets to be a little bit uncomfortable because you're like, oh, no one's saying anything. A lot of times that space is giving our brains time to process and then that person might keep going with that story and give you more details that you might have not known either about them and their capacity to do, what steps you're giving them or something helpful to learn about that pet. So there's a lot of benefits to that active listening and also, too, that's just one of the best ways to build rapport with someone too right? Because a lot of times in human conversation how was your day? Oh, it was good, how was yours we just kind of have this even exchange and we're kind of just doing a little back and forth and so it's really taking the time to say I am here for you, yes, I'm here to help you with your dog, but I'm, I'm here for you because the success of that dog and whatever training plan you create is solely on that owner, right? Because they're the one day in, day out have to do all of the things. So giving them the space to share everything that they want to share and kind of process all of that, you can kind of start to see them relax, start to see them be a little bit more calm Now you've gotten some trust and they're hopefully in a better headspace now that they feel heard by you, to actually be able to learn some of the things you're trying to train them.
Speaker 2:And then I think the other side of that too is again just being very aware of the client in front of you. I think it's really easy to say, oh okay, this is resource guarding. So here's my top five tips for resource guarding. And we just send things over, that client might only be able to do two. So if you send them five and they only do two, you know, in the two weeks between your sessions that's not a really great percentage of success rate, right? And then how is that client going to feel about themselves? They're going to feel like they failed you, they failed their dog.
Speaker 2:Instead of let's pare things down Like I'm very much in like the less is more.
Speaker 2:Camp, where we don't have to give all of the information in our head away in like any one session, right. And so let's give you two goals and then guess what? If they do those two, that is 100% success rate. Now we have a basis to say, oh okay, that went really well. Are you ready for you? Want an extra one? Right, and you are working alongside them versus this. Like I am the expert, I am giving you these tools. Like you must do all of this, right, I think. Just really making it manageable for that human and then also understanding we all have different learning styles, right, and thinking about how are you giving your information? How many pages is your report? Do you have a million things that they click off of and then they get lost down a rabbit hole and can't get back to the report? Like, thinking about all of those things with that client in mind, I think is really going to help you, as a animal professional, really connect better with your clients.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all really important tools to use. And we talk about empathy all the time on the show right and listening and the active listening you were just talking about. Can we role play a little bit here? Because I want to give the listeners example, because I think this is such a common thing, like from a client, and I also want to part the need to really empathize with a client that might be saying like I'll say some things and that might make people laugh, but it's actually what we might hear all the time and as trainers and consultants we have to also be careful not to, you know, make a certain facial expression or grimace when that happens. So we also have to empathize with that. So let's see what your response would be. So you're right now in the role of active listening.
Speaker 1:I'm like Valerie, so I've got this dog and Uncle Bob came over and the dog bit Uncle Bob and I don't think it was that bad, although Uncle Bob had to go to the hospital. So I think it's just because I wasn't being alpha enough. Do you think I need to be more dominant? Or maybe it's because it's not just like my last dog. My German Shepherd was kind of like that and you know, I think I'm just, I think you're my last hope, so I'm just going to give up on this dog. So what should I do? So you get all this, you know, you can kind of picture that. And then so you're like the dog whisperer huh, and like you get all these interesting comments. You want to interject 500 times during that kind of statement. But you're sitting there and you're looking at me with a nice smile and actively listening. But now what would your response be at that moment? Like, what do you address first? Where do you go? How do you empathize with a statement like that?
Speaker 2:Wait. So your dog bit your uncle.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That sounds really scary. How are you doing?
Speaker 1:It was kind of scary. I care about Uncle Bob and we like it for him to come over, but he was pretty upset about it, and I was upset at my dog too. I don't think he should be the alpha. I should be the alpha and say hello to Uncle Bob.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I mean you just saying he got bit and he had to go to the hospital, like my heart just sank, you know, because that's never an easy situation. You know you love, like you said, you love both individuals there. So I just feel that just just makes me want to take a deep breath when you're telling me that story. So thank you for sharing that when you're telling me that story.
Speaker 1:So thank you for sharing that. Oh, you're good. That's pauses there, the pauses are gold there, so love that. That's really interesting, that concept that you were just saying, like take a pause, just listen. And you guys listening in right now can't see Valerie's face, but she's got a really inviting. Just I'm listening to you kind of look on our face, which is practiced, you know, and it's coming off naturally, but it's something we do have to practice, something I've had to practice for many years. So yeah, but see, that's the stuff I'm talking about. It's like that's the things we can face. But we also have to understand that that's what that client is experiencing, that's what that guardian is experiencing, and they might have a lot of misconceptions, but if we jump in and try to change their minds or fix something right at that moment, we're going to lose them, so excellent.
Speaker 2:I am a self-proclaimed fixer, so that is why I held on to emotional.
Speaker 2:CPR. So much in the act of listening, because I realized I wasn't really listening. Because you could do that same exact scenario where someone's giving you all this information and you know you're kind of going down this rabbit hole of what you're going to do next. So, instead of me listening and being present with you, I'm coming up with the five ways that I would fix all of your problems and in that, my brain is focused on that and I'm not focused on you and what you're sharing. So you know it's really resonating with that person. And you know also to in our distraction world. Right, we got our watches, that buzz and our phones. And you know, especially if you're like out, you know seeing clients all day, like people could be texting, calling all of these things. But really, you know, put the notebook down, close the laptop, just be two humans that are trying to help this family and this dog and start from there.
Speaker 2:And yes, it very much has been a process to learn because, yeah, we're, you're taught to triage, right. You're like, okay, well, let's see bites. Okay, we got to work on muscle training, or maybe we don't have Uncle Bob over anymore, right, and you're taught to triage, right. You're like, okay, well, let's see bites. Okay, we got to work on muscle training, or maybe we don't have Uncle Bob over anymore, right? And you're just like well, right, you can create a lot of training plans just based on that very short snippet of information, but that's never the full story.
Speaker 2:So, really, just giving those pauses, because I think, if you're giving those pauses, if your client's an auditory processor, where they kind of need to talk through, right, and they need to think about all of those things, it's very helpful for them to have somebody, because also, too, guess what, they're probably embarrassed about that. So they're not. They haven't told their friends and family that their dog bit their uncle, right? So you might be one of the only people that they're telling this very tough information. So to have a safe space is huge.
Speaker 1:Huge, huge. It's such a wise investment that pause and that listening is a wise investment is that trust and relationship account that we're building with that client. So I would love to talk more about the trainer side here, but we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. Hey friends, it's me again and I hope you are enjoying this episode. Don't forget to join me for the fifth annual Aggression and Dogs conference, either in person or online, from Scottsdale, arizona, from October 11th to 13th 2024. This year's lineup includes many incredible speakers, including Dr Clive Wynn, dr Jessica Heckman, emma Parsons, sarah Kolnice, dr Kelly Moffitt, dr Amy Cook and many more. Head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts in dog body language to working with aggression in shelter environments, to genetic influences on behavior. Dr Aima Cook will be bringing her entertaining and energetic personality to the grand reception and cocktail party which, by the way, will be live-streamed as well as in-person. And, as usual, you'll find a wonderful, kind, caring and supportive community at the conference, both in-person and online. We also have some the conference, both in person and online. We also have some awesome conference swag for you to check out. This year's slogans that we have on all the sweatshirts, t-shirts, hats and more are Celebrating Dogs who Growl and, new for this year, muzzle Up Buttercup, which I really love.
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Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Valerie Bogey and we've been talking about the human side of behavior cases and just the human side in general. I think this is a great episode, not only on behavior consulting and dogs, but I think we can get some really great life lessons here, such as active listening, which we're just talking about. But let's maybe shift gears. We want to. We have a lot of trainers and consultants that listen to the show, and we were just talking about. But let's maybe shift gears. We want to. We have a lot of trainers and consultants that listen to the show and we were talking about some of the tools they can use. But what are some of the common challenges when you're talking to trainers and consultants? You know, is it maybe toxic relationships with the clients? Is it? They're not participating in the program, which is probably the most common one, right? So what do you see in your common challenges that trainers and consultants can face?
Speaker 2:Yes, all of that, yes, the compliance, that's huge. And because I think we need to enter these spaces with positive intent to think that, okay, well, if someone is paying me to come over and guide them and teach them and come up with these plans and educate them, you have to assume positive intent, that they want to carry out those plans and do those steps. So then, as the trainer, you need to figure out why. And then also, too, how do you word that? Well, why didn't you do your homework? Okay, that just put them on the defensive and they're gonna shut down and probably not share with you Instead of, how can I help you succeed with this training plan? You know, is there a gap in what I taught you? Did I give you too much? Is this too complex?
Speaker 2:You know, and I think a lot of those conversations oh well, this doesn't make sense to have the sanctuary or safe space for my dog in this place because of this and this window. And you know, and like, there's so many little things that are so client and patient specific or dog specific that if we kind of go into it thinking like, oh well, they just, they're just wasting their money, they're not even doing any of their homework. They're paying you because they want your help, because they trust you. So now it's your job, just as if a dog is failing with something that you're trying to do. You're going to reevaluate, you're going to look at the environment. What else is going on here, right, like? What other antecedents are going on Like, is there something else reinforcing this behavior or not reinforcing this behavior? In this scenario?
Speaker 2:So, using all of your dog skills on the human, I think, is really important because that's going to help you, because to us, we got to fix this, you know, help with this dog, and that is what we're coming in for. Well, guess what? If they have kids, if they have a job, if they have a family, you know like, they have life outside of that dog and so really understanding them and building that relationship from the get-go is going to help you. So then we can adjust those expectations, right, because no one's perfect. The dog's not perfect Client isn't, and I know I am not perfect, right, like, and that's part of learning, and you know, and if you are not ready to fail, then you're not going to succeed at learning, because that's part of the process. So I think in those times where it's like really easy to start doing the blame game, taking it down a notch and then kind of figuring out like let's use those same behavior sleuthing skills that you use to help identify challenges with that pet for this human.
Speaker 1:What do you do for the clients or when a trainer is really struggling, sort of building a relationship with the client? Maybe there's just this wall up or the personalities are clashing and they're really struggling. Or maybe the client's just this wall up or the personalities are clashing and they're really struggling. Or maybe the client's just a toxic person, or we can talk about toxic people just in general. So maybe it's not even a client we can talk about. Just what do we do with toxic relationships? If it's a client or a friend or whatever, how do you kind of help trainers and consultants with that issue?
Speaker 2:That's a lot to unpack, yeah, and consultants with that issue, that's a lot to impact.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you brought that up because I think in any helping profession you know you will sacrifice yourself to help and it doesn't have to be that way Because, again, we have to assume positive intent. Everyone has a bad day but when you start noticing patterns in behavior with that human, you can make a judgment call and decide is that a relationship you want to continue and you have that power. I think it's really difficult because there's so many amazing dog trainers out there and you are working in a silo. You started your own business, you got all you know, you did the certifications, you're killing it, but you're by yourself, so you don't have a sounding board or your sounding board is, you know, significant others or family and friends, but you don't really have a colleague or a coworker in some situations, or if you do, it might just be a very small team. So I think, going with your gut in a lot of these situations, because I think people, you know, oh well, it'll get better.
Speaker 2:You know they just had a bad day, but you are a behaviorist. If you're a dog trainer, you know behavior and so you can also recognize patterns in human behavior and being able to set those boundaries. If you continue to speak to me this way during our training sessions, I will no longer be able to be your dog trainer. Right, you're setting very clear expectations and if they can't meet that expectation, then that is on them and that is not on you. And I think it's so easy to say like I can help the dog and I'll muscle through, but at what cost? It's not fair to you.
Speaker 1:I have a follow-up to that. What if you're a person like me or like how I used to be, a big time introvert, people-pleasing kind of person and you would never even fathom having those words come out of your mouth If you continue to speak to me? It would have been. I could say that now, but it took practice and time in developing the confidence know, the confidence to say something like that. What are your recommendations or suggestions to kind of build up to that, being able to confidently say, hey, listen, if you keep speaking to me like that way, or do you know how to navigate that?
Speaker 2:So I think a great place to start is review your onboarding paperwork, because you can put things in your contract, you know. So when someone is coming to you for assistance, you can put something in there that is basically a bullet point or something you can fall back to right, because they're signing, e-signing, whatever that cancellation policy, right, rescheduling policy, so you have like all of your kind of norms and conditions in a client contract. But you can put something about you know we are entering into a mutual relationship and whatever you want to put in there to say like trust and respect are paramount for your pet success. If at any point this is not being met, this relationship can be ended by either party. There's a difference between you know, toxic relationship, but then also maybe just you're just not a love match with that trainer, you know, and there's just times where it's just like the learning style and your teaching style just don't match. Or just you know, maybe personality wise and it's okay to call it out and just say, hey, I'm just I'm having a real hard time. Can you tell me a little bit more about X? And just trying to open up those conversations, because they might be feeling the same exact way. But now they're like oh well, I signed up for a six pack so we got to trudge through this, so recognizing that you cannot help everybody and there might be another professional out there that is a better match for that person.
Speaker 2:So I think, also kind of thinking from that, you know, bigger community picture of if the goal is to help this family and this pet, it doesn't always have to be you, you know, like I don't know how busy your schedule is, you probably can't help all the animals in your community anyways, right, so being able to be confident enough to say, because I think that person is going to respect the heck out of you if you can have that conversation with them and be like listen, we've both been trying really hard. Do you want to continue? Is this beneficial? Are you learning right? Or what if a family member just died? It might not be about you at all either, right? There's just so much that goes into that.
Speaker 2:So I think, safeguarding yourself from the front end with something in the client contract or your onboarding paperwork somewhere where they read it at that moment or not.
Speaker 2:They're signing their name to it, so they should. But then that's something if you don't feel comfortable having that in-person conversation. If you're going home and you're typing up your report and you're like, oh my gosh, or you see them on your schedule next week and you're like I don't know if I can do this, go back to your client contract and send them an email and just say, hey, you know, based on you know, our last interaction, I feel like we're not really meeting this. You agreed to this and give them an out right and kind of go from there. So I think obviously in person is always better. But if you're building up to that and you're building your own confidence in those conversations, sending the email first and then maybe the invitation for a quick phone call or something Right, because then both of you have time to read and process and then can maybe convene that way, versus kind of on the fly where you're like.
Speaker 2:I'm not prepared Right Like I don't know what to say, so that I think could be a helpful tool.
Speaker 1:I think an additional helpful tool is if there was a template for this, because I think the wording is the most difficult part, because, at the same time, you don't want to end up with a negative Google review, right? Somebody getting like taking it personally and be like, ah, you know, I don't like how they talked to me and they just left me and they fired me or whatever, and next thing you know you're waking up to a bad Facebook review or somebody commenting publicly about you, and where well-worded communication can actually avoid that many times.
Speaker 1:So just thinking out, loud here, you know now we're going to have Valerie writing up templates for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure how to fire.
Speaker 1:I'm using air quotes there. How to?
Speaker 1:fire but how to, you know, sever a relationship with a client that's just not working out Okay, so on the topic of toxic relationships, obviously we have social media now and that's a significant part of our work. That is sometimes necessary, not always necessary. There's arguments that we don't necessarily need social media, but for people that I'm working with so I'm working with trainers that are sort of, you know, looking to get out there and become speakers or teach courses to other trainers they kind of need social media because that's going to build brand awareness and exposure and so let's talk to that crowd. But also even somebody just like they're using social media to get more clients, so that it's kind of a necessary evil, so to speak, Because the answer often is just don't go on social media, but you're, at the same time, that's like saying to somebody don't use the yellow pages or don't put an ad in the newspaper 20 years ago right or don't take out a radio ad, you're going to miss the advertising opportunities.
Speaker 1:And, let's face it, social media is a lot like that, and so let's say somebody just they have to be in there. But we have so much vitriol right now and it's been ongoing, as we know. But even in the last week, as we're recording this, we've seen this huge backlash against a company that hosted an aversive trainer in their conference and this particular company really got called out for it and some people were gracious with how they called out. But there's, of course, when these sort of large groups come together, like I should say, there's, a huge response. You're going to get a lot of really negative comments, to the point of which, actually, I've seen some illegal things.
Speaker 1:You know slander, libel, death, threats I mean really awful stuff to like poor people are working at that company. You know that's like wait a minute, I had nothing to do with this. I'm just a worker here and you're threatening my life. You know that's this kind of stuff. That is just awful, that's happening. So my question for you, the big, broad question, is what are your suggestions for us, for self-preservation, for, let's say, we still have to use social media, but we have to learn how to navigate these conversations, these comments, these things that can happen in these backlash moments or even in more of a microcosm, where it's just maybe one comment and you have, like, just a few people following you all the way up to if you have a million flowers and you have thousands of comments. What is your advice there?
Speaker 2:Necessary evil is a great way to talk about social media because there's a lot of great things about it. We can stay in connection with people, we can learn new things. We can see, you know, adorable mini cow videos like whatever, whatever your whatever your thing is there's a lot out there, but I also feel like it.
Speaker 2:You know, we just have those kind of armchair critics right where people are very secure in what they are typing from behind a screen which, when you know, if you were really talking to that human in conversation, you would never say those things. I think that is kind of one of the the tough parts about social media and it's always there in your face right, like you have your phone, like yeah, if you're trying to build your business, you probably have your notifications turned on so that you can reply immediately when someone likes or makes a comment and things like that. So you're trying to be really engaging. But that is also what is going to zap all of your energy too. So I think, as far as social media, you need to kind of pick your platforms wisely, you know, so you don't have to be in all of them. That's exhausting. If you have a team that could do that for you, great, but if you're just one person or, you know, small team, you might not have the bandwidth to be doing it all of the time. So I think, choosing your platforms wisely so you don't feel like you have to do like five platforms all the time and then also using the things that are built into it, like for you know Facebook, instagram, you can set up posts and things like that. So maybe you have a dedicated social media content posting and you can do it for like the whole month, set it and forget it. I think that brings up just that whole idea again of like setting boundaries. Like, because, again, if you are out there, you're trying to drum up more business and get people interested in what you're doing. You want to be available, right, so you can answer questions and tell them all about your services and why they should choose you.
Speaker 2:But I don't think anyone should be answering. You know Facebook messages or you know that kind of stuff. You know nine o'clock at night, like, you need to kind of set timeframes for yourself because, yeah, otherwise if you're just constantly on it all the time, yeah, then you're going to see all the negative things and you know it's just going to become a chore. So I think, thinking of it as just like, what's your dosing of social media, right? Like, okay, like, are you going to do a daily? Then it needs to be a very small amount every single day. Are you going to do like every other day. Okay, we can have a little bit more time to allow you to respond and things like that but just really being mindful of how much time you're spending.
Speaker 2:Most of our phones will tell us how much time you're spending on social media and is it going to make or break a new client if you respond in five minutes or five hours or the next day? Probably not right. So you know, just being aware that it's okay to turn it off, it's actually better probably for you, you know, especially if you are starting to be really stressed out about what you're seeing, what you're reading. I mean, you know, like you could look at all the you know animal shelters and all these dogs needs homes, and that can be really draining if that's all you're seeing in your feed all day. So you know, recognizing how you're feeling after you're viewing all of that and then giving yourself some time to decompress and kind of recover after that, because just because it's not an active conversation or you're not seeing it in person doesn't mean that it doesn't take a toll on you.
Speaker 1:Those are really excellent, tangible tips, because I think everybody needs to know how to balance their time and their own needs for social media. But let's use an example. Let's say you're on social media and you're just post. Let's say you post about this podcast oh, I'm excited to do a podcast. And somebody was like Valerie, you know, we don't really need social workers. They're just stupid, you know. You don't know what you're talking about and they leave a nasty comment like that, which happens all the time on social media what goes through your head and how would you respond to that?
Speaker 2:Or would you respond, yeah, well, I mean reading that. First. You have to think about what headspace are you in? Is it the end of my day? And I had a couple tough client meetings and things like that. So I think what lens am I looking and reading that in?
Speaker 2:Because I think a lot of times too, it is just words, so we're not hearing someone's inflection or how they're saying it. We're like, well, I don't think we really need social work, or is it like we don't need social work, right? Like we don't know how that person really meant it, because now it's up to my interpretation on the other end. So there's already a gap there. So I think, with things like that take time to process and I typically wouldn't reply right away. I'm going to give time and space to let me process, because if I am reeling and really mad about it, I don't want to respond at that moment because I'm going to say something I'm probably going to regret later. So I think it's really easy. You know, in some of those like comment sections right, where people are just firing, firing, firing and it's like man, is anyone stopping to actually like, read and absorb or, like you know, check in with your body to see how you're feeling when you're reading all of that, because it's so much you know. Oh, you're wrong, I'm right, and this and that, and so I would say, give some time and space to process and then decide is it worth replying to right, because a lot of times we can just delete the comment. Is that going to be easier? Is it better to reach out to that person in a private message? Right, it depends on who that is. Is it just a random person that I have no context for why they said that? Maybe they had a bad experience with a social worker when they were a kid? You know, like, again, we have no idea.
Speaker 2:So I think you kind of have to navigate them as they come, but then just recognizing, like, again, it's your platform, you, you have the choice. You can delete, you can block. Sometimes you might have other people on your page come rally for you and say, actually, you know, we thought this was really cool, or you know, or this is why. Because, again, is it worth your energy? Because you don't have. You know, like we're talking about all the hats that you're wearing, all the you know, like we're talking about all the hats that you're wearing, all the you know like, all the energy that you're expending every single day. So if you're pouring it all into your social media and having these little you know comments, fights and back and forth and that kind of stuff, you're not going to have the energy to do your best for that next training session coming up. So is it worth it?
Speaker 1:Excellent point. Yes, and that's a question that most of the actually the answer for me is, most of the time it's not worth it to respond. It really isn't. What's the benefit for you if that's taking time and energy away from doing things you're trying to do to help people and their dogs and their animals right.
Speaker 1:So great way to wrap up there. And I also want to talk about you're going to be doing a course for aggressivedogcom and it's all on the topics we were just talking about. You know the human side of working our cases, so tell us a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2:I am very excited about this and I think we've come up with some really great things to talk about for this course. So we're going to be having that in September and we're going to. It's going to be a two part, so chapter one is focusing, like kind of how we did today, about understanding and supporting clients, how to be a better coach, some active listening skills, talk more about the caregiver burden scoring, just a lot of things so you can show up better for your clients, which then, in turn, you will help that dog even better in that regard, right, so, helping the human to help the pet. And then that. Part two is then all about you, because again, we're pouring, pouring in these helping professions, pouring ourselves out there, just trying to help everyone. But we need to take that step back and say, well, what about me? How can we learn a little bit more about self-care for ourselves? And what does that look like? It's not all bubble baths and trips around the world and things. Those are all great, but if you come back home or you complete that task and you feel the same way, then that wasn't actually self-care, because you should feel rejuvenated, you should feel different after you're doing something, and so that's going to look different for everyone.
Speaker 2:So, I think, kind of taking that deep dive into self-care, what does that look like? For some days it might be making yourself lunch, like eating, like you know, if you're having that super busy day or you're having like a you know a day where you're not working and you just feel off. Sometimes your self care is just literally feeding yourself and drinking some water, and that is going to be gold star for that day. You know you did it right, and so our standards and our criteria are going to change, just like our criteria is going to change for the dogs that we're training as well. So, yeah, so I'm really excited about both workshops, obviously, but you know, just having that combination effect, because I think a lot of times we run out of time to talk about both sides. So I think, just being able to have that opportunity of really dedicating a little bit more in depth time to talk about these things through the lens of a dog trainer or dog professionals Because again, we talked about how still new veterinary social work is, and so there's not really a lot of resources out there for dog trainers specifically.
Speaker 2:So that's something that I am very thankful that you're allowing me to do this workshop and working with me to do this, because there's such a need for it, right? So because we can see veterinary social workers in vet clinics. They're at vet med colleges where they're able to help the vets, the clients and the students. So you're actually training the up and coming veterinarians the skills, self care, the resiliency, that intentional well being before they actually are on the front lines themselves, which is huge to try to help change that industry Gray's growing resiliency and animal employees that I work for. You know we're doing that in the zoo and aquarium realm, and then now there's also vet social workers and animal shelters. But what about the dog trainer? So that's why I'm so excited to bring this to this platform, because I think it's just such a need and really getting as deep as we can into you know both sides of the human aspect as far as the clients and you as the individual and is going to be pretty amazing.
Speaker 1:I'm excited for it and I highly agree with you. It's going to be such a powerful, you know, way of helping trainers work with the cases and consultants and all the work we do, because, as you mentioned, there's just not a lot of information out there. So super excited for that. It's going to be a link for that in the show notes, so check it out if you're interested in the course and learning more about the valuable tools we can use to work with clients as well as care for ourselves. Valerie, where can people find you if they want to reach out or if they want to check out your site or anything else you're up to these days?
Speaker 2:Well, speaking of social media, so I am on Facebook, instagram. I also lead the support group through Insight Animal Behavior Services, so you can go to the Insight website to learn about that free support group that is for pet owners that have pets with behavior challenges, and I also offer low-cost one-on-one peer support sessions and that's for anybody, so if you need someone to talk to. Again, I am not a licensed professional, so I do read a disclaimer because it really is a peer support session, but really, you know, giving you the time and space, whether you are a vet, a trainer, a client, an animal shelter worker. That's open and available to anyone, and I will also be attending the Aggression in Dogs conference in Arizona, so come say hi in person there as well.
Speaker 1:Wonderful Valerie. Thank you so much. This has been an excellent conversation and I'm looking forward to seeing you soon.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Thanks so much, Mike.
Speaker 1:That was such an enlightening conversation and I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to chat with Valerie.
Speaker 1:She'll be giving a special mini course for AggressiveDogcom in September of 2024 on both how to support your clients as well as support your own needs and the often difficult work.
Speaker 1:We do Stay tuned for more details on that, as I will be sending out an email to everyone subscribed to the newsletter, which you can do, if you haven't already, by going to AggressiveDogcom and don't forget, while you're there, you can learn more about helping dogs with aggression, from the Aggression and Dogs Master Course to webinars from world-renowned experts and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression and dogs. We also have the Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog-to-dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear-based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends.