The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Transforming Lives: Helping Dogs with Trauma - Featuring Caroline Alupo
Unlock the secrets to understanding and treating trauma in dogs with our special guest, Caroline Alupo, an authority in dog behavior and canine trauma. Caroline breaks down the similarities and differences between human and canine trauma, highlighting common symptoms like hyper-vigilance and avoidance behaviors, while explaining why traditional training methods might fall short in addressing these issues.
ABOUT CAROLINE:
"My name is Caroline Alupo, and I am a dog behaviorist and ethologist. In addition to a master's degree in ethology, I have 19 years of experience helping anxious and reactive dogs find peace.
I am passionate about coaching dog parents to gain a deeper understanding of their dogs and gladly share training techniques that enable dog parents to help their dogs towards positive interactions and balance.
The methods taught are scientifically grounded, positive and prioritize the dog's self-esteem and trust in you as a dog parent."
- Trained dog behaviorist with many years of continuing education.
- Masters degree in ethology
- 19 years of work experience in the dog industry
- Trained decoy dog in service.
http://www.petli.app/
http://www.carolinealupo.se/
Limited time offer! The Aggression in Dogs Master Course and Expert Webinar Bundle! Only 50 will be made available.
https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/bundles/the-aggression-in-dogs-master-course-and-expert-webinar-bundle-2024
Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com
Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
Subscribe to the bonus episodes available here:
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes
Check out all of our webinars, courses, and educational content here:
Webinars, courses, and more!
In this episode we explore the topic of trauma in dogs and how it can impact aggression. It's another topic I'm really glad to see being discussed more in the dog training community, as trauma can have a significant impact on how we approach helping dogs in need. Caroline Alupo joins me to discuss what trauma is, the similarities and differences between trauma in dogs and humans, and what we can do to help dogs that may have experienced trauma. Caroline specializes in aggression of various kinds and post-traumatic stress syndrome in dogs. She has a master's degree in ethology and is a certified dog behaviorist and dog trainer. Caroline co-founded the dog app Petly and is a speaker at universities and academic institutions across Sweden and beyond.
Speaker 1:And if you're enjoying the bitey end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there's a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from October 11th to 13th 2024 in Scottsdale, arizona, with both in-person and online options. You can also learn more about the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues. I also have a wide variety of webinars, upcoming courses, videos and articles, all from the foremost experts in training and behavior. We are your one-stop shop for all things related to aggression in dogs. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. This week I have a very special guest, because we're going to be talking about post-traumatic stress disorder in dogs PTSD which is something we haven't really talked about on the show. So I'm excited to introduce Carolyn Alupo. Welcome, carolyn.
Speaker 2:Hi, Mike, and thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Yes, let's jump right into this topic because we have a lot of listeners for having me. Yes, let's jump right into this topic because we have a lot of listeners, a very broad range of listeners, and some are deeply entrenched into this topic and some may have just started hearing about it in dogs. So can you kind of define what PTSD is in dogs, just for this general sake of defining this first with a discussion?
Speaker 2:PTSD stands for post-traumatic stress disorder, so it's really an anxiety disorder that dogs can get after experience like a traumatic event. It could be really anything where the dog has feared for his or her life and developed fears that have gotten stuck. It's like they're stuck in this nightmare and they keep being reminded repeatedly of whatever they've experienced and they've been changed after this incident to their core really and they can fear the whole world or just people or dogs, depending on what they've experienced. But in short, it's an anxiety disorder after a traumatic event.
Speaker 1:What are some of the signs that dogs experience? You know we'll get more into that I think into the nuts and bolts and the details of it but just some of the you know initial signs that a dog might have experienced that or has PTSD, or we would give that diagnosis to.
Speaker 2:Common signs are hypervigilance and an increased arousal after this event, as well as trigger reactions arousal after this event as well as trigger reactions. So these dogs, they associate different things, different stimuli, as triggers related to the actual trauma event and they'll be actively trying to avoid those triggers. They will really elicit fear or anger in the dog when the dog is subjected or experiences these triggers. So that's very common symptoms and sometimes these dogs also have other secondary symptoms like gastrointestinal issues and sleep disturbances etc. Depression for instance. So quite common to what a human with PTSD would experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in that regard there's been some debates and I've seen some conversations about. You know how can you assign a human disorder to dogs and how do we know if dogs are truly experiencing that? So what's your argument for that?
Speaker 2:I think it's a valid point. You know it really is. When I did my study I took the DSM scale you know the diagnostic tool for different mental health disorders in humans and I looked at PTSD and I thought, like how can we apply this to dogs? Can we even apply this to dogs? And I had quite a critical eye when I looked at this scale and I tried to take out what diagnostic criteria we actually could use for dogs, and a few of them I had to take away, like nightmares or flashbacks, anything where I couldn't. You know.
Speaker 2:I can't ask a dog are you experiencing flashbacks or are you seeing, you know, scenes from the trauma event or are you dreaming about the traumatic event? I can't ask a dog that. So all of that had to be taken away. But the interesting thing was that in each diagnostic category there's like four different diagnostic categories for PTSD and in each category on the human side, you don't have to actually have all the symptoms in each category to have PTSD. So when I took out the ones that we can't really apply to dogs, I still had enough to work with to use it as a diagnostic tool for dogs. But I think the criticism is valid and it's important always to be very critical, you know. But we mustn't forget that dogs and humans our limbic system is very similar. I mean dogs are sentient beings with a very complex emotional life. So to me, after knowing dogs my whole life and working with troubled dogs for over 18 years, to me it's obvious in a way that they as well can experience this kind of difficult anxiety disorder as we can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you make a really great point in your paper about translational studies and you know what we're using animals to study for.
Speaker 1:You know for human behavior and diagnosing things, but we sometimes, for whatever reason, don't do it the other way around. But it totally makes sense. You know, why can't we take human studies and apply it to animals if we're doing the opposite? So yeah, so I want to talk a little bit more about the diagnosis of PTSD in dogs. You've mentioned some of the symptoms we should look for, but can we dive deeper into that? You know things like the intrusion symptoms and avoidance, and can you talk more about what we should be looking for? Let's say it's a pet owner or pet guardian or a trainer or consultant looking to assign this term to a dog.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, foremost, we have to have like a clear cut incident and we have to have a pre picture of the dog, in sense of the dog's wellbeing, and a post picture of the dog. You know, this incident in the middle, something that has happened, and we can start by looking at that incident. Was it unpredictable for the dog? Could the dog have feared for his or her life or feared for really bad injury? If so, we have a risk of PTSD. And then we also want to look at you know, was this dog a happy-go-lucky dog before this incident happened and afterwards? Do we have hyper arousal or an increased vigilance?
Speaker 2:Do we have trigger reactions, fear responses, startle responses, for instance, stress-related behaviors and an avoidance of triggers, both primary and secondary triggers, that could be associated to this traumatic event? If all those things are there there, then we can start to wonder could this dog have PTSD? And that's all we can do. We can't really know. We don't have to chase and hunt down the diagnosis and the term PTSD, but we can always look that yeah, this is a dog that we suspect have PTSD. There's no need to be 100% sure, because we cannot be 100% sure, of course, as we cannot ask the dog anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so in a sense we're recognizing the dog is in real need of care for that particular incident, in a sense of helping them move forward because we're seeing all these signs and symptoms. So your point about not actually having to officially label it is also valid and I think that's important to remember because we often see dogs going through some difficult times. Although I will say I think it's also probably helpful Would you find this helpful for guardians to be able to assign a term and it allows them to empathize more with their dogs.
Speaker 1:If they maybe empathize to PTSD, maybe they know somebody or they've experienced it themselves and they might if they know their dog has the similar diagnosis, do you think that would help them empathize more or relate to their dog more?
Speaker 2:I think it can go both ways. I think some people when they realize oh, my dog possibly has PTSD, they take the symptoms more seriously and they understand the Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde tendencies and they see how okay my dog ticks all these boxes and I truly understand, you know, how severe this mental illness is for my dog and that's a good thing. Some people open up and think about you know medication as a help for the treatment plan which they might not have considered without this kind of diagnosis. So I think that that's, you know, a good outcome. The backside is if a dog owner just lands in the PTSD diagnosis and lose, you know, the actionability and loses its force to help this dog and just kind of settles with my dog is a PTSD dog, I can't do much about the situation we're in or the symptoms my dog is suffering from and that's a shame. In that sense I don't like the effect of the diagnosis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's such an interesting point too, because it makes you realize just how powerful labels can be, and how we have to be careful about them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I want to back up a little bit too. You were talking about primary and secondary triggers and you have some very specific examples in your paper that talk about what has happened to a dog that really had that traumatic effect on them. One of them attacked by a drunk man and then suddenly now the dog is worried about drunk people, which makes sense. Are men making eye contact, loud voices in crowds as sort of secondary triggers, making eye contact, loud voices in crowds as sort of secondary triggers? And another really interesting one, attacked by a wolf in the forest right. So that is not very common, I'm sure for most people listening in, but wolf-like dogs, the scent of the wolf forest on familiar dogs. Another one was a I think there's some harsh training with a prong collar that strung up by a prong collar at the groomers, and now of course, the dog is concerned about prong collars, people in general, all collars groomers being harshly grabbed and things that of course surround the groomers setting clippers, brushes, tables. So how, I guess?
Speaker 1:My question here is do we know the incidents in these cases? So when somebody, let's say, recently adopted a dog and they're seeing these things, maybe the dog feeling out of character, in a sense of the quote unquote average dog in a particular setting, let's say getting into a car, for instance, and the dog really panics, just getting into the car shows all these symptoms you were talking about. Would we know the difference? Would be able to say this dog has trauma because of some previous incident or this, this dog has just never been in a car. Can we tell the difference? So do we always need to have a baseline of what that dog's behavior was like before?
Speaker 2:a particular incident? It's a good question. I mean, I work with a lot of rescue dogs that clearly have PTSD, according to this diagnostic tool from my study. But we do not know what has caused the PTSD, we just know it's there. It's very obvious because of the secondary and the primary triggers and the avoidance and the hypervigilance and the arousal and the sleep disturbance and the gastrointestinal issues, et cetera, et etc. Etc. And like a depressed kind of low state.
Speaker 2:But I also work with rescue dogs, like you say, mike, that just are not used to going in a car or unfamiliar with, with you know, a lot of different kind of people men or kids or other dogs or cats and they're just not, you know, used to it.
Speaker 2:And often with those dogs we can see a high level of fright or a high level of aggression if they choose to act out on their fright. But with some operant conditioning and with some training we often see that, okay, the dog has helped and slowly but surely the dog feels more safe and secure around cats or sheep or horses or whatever it is, or the car, for instance, and we see a progression without you know a holistic plan to help the dog forward. We're just actually practicing the car and doing it below the threshold for stress and we're giving the dog, you know, the possibility to back out of the training situation and say, please, I want to try some more. And we're just doing that slowly over time and see that the dog actually gets more secure and is able to go in the car again. Then we do not have ptsd. It was just an insecurity around the car and a fright around cars. So there's a big difference and it's very obvious when you meet these dogs that it's.
Speaker 1:It's not the same thing at all and most of it is based on the observations of what we're trying is not working. So I'd love to talk more about that in dogs that have experienced trauma, where the learning ability for lack of a better description is is really impacted. So can you talk more about that? What's happening, you know. You know with the resiliency and the or not being able to adapt as we would like to the situation or make the changes we're often used to seeing, like in that rescue dog that maybe has never been in a car, versus one that maybe was in a car accident that was very traumatic, and how difficult it sometimes can be and why that happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can take an example. I met a dog the other day, a dog that when I just looked at the paper before I actually met the dog when the actual booking came in, I was like this must be a PTSD dog. It was a rescue dog that had been in a lot of different homes and had been really harshly handled. And when I met the dog, however, I was like, wow, this is not a PTSD dog. This dog is scared, it's got issues, it's got stress related behaviors that we need to address, but there's no PTSD.
Speaker 2:That self healing motor, that mechanism was completely intact. When we trigger trained, the dog chose to back out and do like a stress relief and chose to play to be able to move from kind of a hard feeling to a lighter one, and it was doing this on on her own. She was like really working the therapy on her own. A PTSD dog doesn't do that. They need a lot of help to actually get that stress release and not bottle up or not shut down. So that's a huge difference really. And the dogs that say, for instance, the car drive, say a dog has been in a car accident just trying to guide that dog closer to a car using a treat and just slowly, bit by bit, day by day, trying to get the dog to go closer to the car. That won't really help. It won't get us anywhere and often with a PTS dog, the risk of re-traumatizing and the risk of overexposure. It's so easily done so with that classical kind of you know counter-conditional training. It's just too much for them. We won't reach our goal.
Speaker 1:So that's a big difference really it's just too much for them, we won't reach our goal. So that's a big difference, really, yeah, so let's talk more about that. So, when we are trying things that we typically would do for a dog that has not experienced it at the trauma level, what other changes can we do? Are we looking at medications? Do you work a lot in conjunction with veterinary behaviors or veterinarians that can prescribe meds? Are there other things that we should be aware of with these dogs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the first thing I want to do is really map out all the triggers the dog has. Is it just the car? I mean that to me sounds like in this case, where there's been a car accident, sounds like a big primary trigger. That's not where I want to start the training. So I want to map out all the primary triggers and I also want to map out the secondary triggers, which could be like, you know, a car braking or the sound of a car rolling in the gravel or honking of the horn or somebody just grabbing the car keys. Those could be secondary triggers and I want to start with those triggers. But before I even get to trigger training I mean that could be months down the line I really want to look at where is this dog here and today it's like a person with PTSD. That's been, you know, burning the candle at both ends. There's no energy left. There's there's, you know, the sleep is disturbed and and the nutrition and the food isn't really, you know, passing through and the nutritions aren't taken up as they should. So I just want to leave trigger training until I have a more balanced individual in front of me. So sleep is really important, regular and deep sleep, especially for these dogs. And I also want to look at the pillars of load, like how much is this dog exercised, how much is this dog trained, what is the chemical load and the emotional load and how can we lower these pillars so we get a more balanced dog.
Speaker 2:Some dogs I work with now they get way too much exercise for being a PTSD dog.
Speaker 2:So we're burning the candle in both heads.
Speaker 2:So really just helping them settle and relax, get sleep, get good nutrition and after that and I spent quite a lot of time doing that I want to help these dogs remember their good old days, their fun times and whether we're happy-go-lucky and do things that makes them feel secure and courageous and safe.
Speaker 2:So I really coach my dog owners to do a lot of that before we even get to the trigger training. During that time we want to make sure that the environment they live in is as trigger-free as possible and that they have really clear routines, daily routines, so that the loss of predictability and the loss of control that happened in the trauma incident we want to give that back to their dog so they should wake up every morning and know exactly when they get fed, exactly when they get the bone and exactly when they get to go for a walk and where they are taken for a walk. So you know all the adventures and you know we just reduce that completely, take that away. So their life needs to be very predictable because these dogs they wake up and they expect the sky to fall down on them every single second and they often fear for their life on a daily basis and one needs to understand that and help them feel secure, first of all, before trigger training can even be on the agenda.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned a really important point which is ensuring proper sleep, kind of really looking at things from a holistic level. First, get a good foundation to the house before we start building walls and picking out window dressings and things like that, which would be the equivalent of going out for that car ride again. And we need that foundation so the dog feels well. But sleep disturbances, gi issues sometimes you might also get that chicken and egg kind of question, right, is it? Maybe there's something else going on from a GI standpoint that needs to be addressed that is impacting the dog's welfare and health and it's not related to the trauma. Do you ever come up with that conundrum and what do you do from there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean I am lucky to work with really great vets because there is a going backwards and forwards all the time. You know what's caused by stress. We know autoimmune diseases can be caused by stress. We know cataract and utis can be caused by stress and we have to really lay the puzzle out and see what is causing what here, and sometimes we have to test different treatment plans to see, just to see you know what has what effect here. So it's about going backwards and forwards all the time.
Speaker 2:I see the same with PTSD dogs that I suspect have pain in their body.
Speaker 2:Sometimes there's a body posture that will eventually, with time, cause them pain because they're crouching in their behinds or they're they, you know, stood like a little upside down, turned you really scared position and that will cause pain in the back.
Speaker 2:Or do they have a medical issue causing pain in the back? I mean, we really need to find that out first. But some of these dogs, when I meet them, they're super scared of of humans and people and new people and it's hard for them to just go to the vets. But this is all information we need to give to the dog owner as well, that you know the optimal thing would be for a vet to do their evaluation of your dog, but doing it now will re-traumatize, so we'll have to do this in a month or two and we have to start with, you know, socialization and handling, training, so your dog doesn't experience that that visit in a way. That would just give us a worse prognosis, really. So it's, it's tricky, it's really tricky with some of these dogs because they're there's so many factors affecting their well-being absolutely.
Speaker 1:It sounds like the number one key to moving forward is patience, right. Because, it's all at the dog's pace, you know, and what they're going to be willing, I guess for lack of a better word to do for that session on that day, you know. Just backing up to the veterinary component, I know it might be slightly different in the UK and it depends on where you are in the world, but in terms of behavior medication, do you find something common that's being prescribed for dogs that have this diagnosis or we're looking at trauma?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do, and I think that it's on the rise. You know different kind of medications. I don't know what it's like in the US, but in Sweden we have some medications that we use for, you know, just to calm dogs, just stress dogs really. But then there's some medications that we used for compulsory disorders and anxiety disorders and those are mostly, you know, human medications that we're trying on dogs, but most often they've been tested on dogs to be able to be cleared, to be used for humans anyway. But but swedish vets are actually opening their eye to to more substances, more types of medication than just your average. You know calming medication, so yeah, but but it's tricky, not all ptsd dogs are. You know the case that they're not the kind of cases that need medications, but the really complex cases most often do, maybe not for life, but for a period of time when we do the trigger.
Speaker 2:Training and patience, like you said, it's key. So I always tell my clients that there's no quick fixes. There never are with dogs and especially not with PTSD dogs. There never are with dogs and especially not with PTSD dogs. So I mean, get ready to at least spend six to twelve months focusing on this and slowly, slowly, the slower it goes, the better it is. You know, help to rehabilitate this dog, so that's important to know if you have this kind of a dog, that there's no quick fixes and you need to take it step by step and and the slower, the slower the rehabilitation process, the really more durable the results.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it sounds like the structure is so important. Part of that patience process too, because that lends itself to changing a person's lifestyle too and what their expectations are for the dog, because they might have aspirations. Okay, we used to go hiking all the time, we used to go to the park and enjoy the outdoors, but now you don't want to do that, meaning they're talking to their dog, and I think it might be difficult for some people to have such a profound shift in their daily routine with their dog.
Speaker 1:But again, it boils down to really recognizing that that dog needs, that it is a lifestyle change, but that dog needs that to progress forward or move back to possibly what they were doing before right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think if you have a dog that's experienced something that have given them PTSD, I think what you have to come to terms with which could be, you know, a grief process that your dog will never be the same again it's all about treating it slowly and trying to get the dog to feel as good as it possibly can and to handle its triggers and trigger reactions, but we can't really go in and cure it or erase PTSD or erase the memories.
Speaker 2:So for some people it's a grief process. You know I didn't, you know this wasn't what I expected out of dog life. And now I have this dog that I can. You know I didn't, you know this wasn't what I expected out of dog life. And now I have this dog that I can't hardly take for a walk, you know, without him lunging and barking at other dogs, for instance, and yeah, that can be a hassle and I think during these months of training we want to improve the situation, but if that dog has been attacked, brutally attacked by another dog, we will never be able to erase that memory.
Speaker 1:Of course, Right, right, and you speak of one particular trigger there Now, thinking of dogs as a species and what they might find foreign in the universe and other stimuli that maybe humans don't find foreign or normal to us. But what are some of the common stressors or triggers that actually you've seen are common causes of trauma?
Speaker 2:well, it all depends regarding triggers, it all depends on the incident, whatever they experience. So it could be anything from sounds to dogs, to smells to people or some kind of typical kind of people you know, men or kids, or nightfall. It could be anything just related to that actual event that traumatized the dog. So it's a big variety.
Speaker 1:Do you think there's anything more common to dogs? Like, for instance, fireworks are a good example of humans we're like, okay, fireworks, at least most humans can understand they can be traumatizing to actually some humans, but for dogs, would you say, it's much more so often with dogs, so something like that, where there is something that you see commonly causing trauma in dogs. Maybe another one I can think of is being transported from one location one country to another and they're being put in a plane and they're stuck in a cargo cabin for hours and they've moved to this foreign environment. That can also, I've seen, have similar effects. So can you think of anything in that regard of common triggers or causes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, if we want to look at common causes, like events that can cause PTSD, we want to look at any kind of incident that is unpredictable for the dog, you know, where the dog actually loses control. So being crated and put at the bottom of an airplane and flown across the world, that could be such an incident. Anywhere where the dog is worried or scared of bodily harm or fear of its own life being threatened, those are incidents that could cause PTSD and that could be anything. And I think it's quite interesting that sometimes it's that wolf attack or the fireworks or that big where three dogs came and, you know, attack this little dog. That's obvious for us in a sense. But I think we also need to remember, for a really small puppy it could be that vet that pinned the puppy down to the examination table when that puppy growled because he didn't want to take his first shot To a human. That might seem, you know, oh, it wasn't that bad and the vet let him go, but to that puppy that could be an incident of those characteristics and that can cause PTSD. Or just, you know, having a pet gate falling over a small puppy, that could be an incident with those characteristics causing PTSD. It doesn't have to be that huge car crash or the big earthquake or these big, huge things. We have to see it out of the dog's perspective, and age come in play.
Speaker 2:So it's a difference if there's a six, seven-year-old dog who is experienced and has had lots of positive experience of other dogs and humans, or if it's this little puppy that's a clean slate and doesn't know much and hasn't experienced a lot. And that really brings us into one trial learning which I think is if we can just anybody with a dog, with a puppy or a rescue, that clean slate kind of dog, if we can just understand that the first time a dog experienced something, be it fireworks or kids running around or that pet gate falling to the floor, if that's the first time they experienced that, if that is overwhelming to them, if that's an overexposure that risks setting fears and even PTSD, but fears and phobias as well. So we want to make sure to really rub out the risk of one trial learning, but by helping our dogs experience a lot of things in a mild exposure, so just that pet gate rattling a little bit or hearing a low volume of fireworks on your phone or your computer. A volume of fireworks on your phone or your computer, or watching dogs run around and play in a park without being in the midst of it, being a little part away and just sitting like a puppy sitting in his dog owner's lap and just watching this All of those experiences rubs at the risk of one trial learning becoming a traumatic event, traumatic event.
Speaker 2:So I think that's super, super important when you have a dog, especially a puppy, that we shouldn't just, you know, protect them from everything. We should, on the other hand, expose them to a lot of things, but at a really low exposure. That we should always be below the threshold of stress so we do not overexpose them. So it sounds like there's a lot of great preventative measures we can take. Especially, we should always be below the threshold of stress so we do not overexpose them.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like there's a lot of great preventative measures we can take, especially in puppies, so I want to dive more into that. But I want to take a quick break to hear word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. If you're interested in hearing more about applicable and immediate steps you can use with your own dog or in your cases, I have a subscription series called Help for Dogs with Aggression, which is an additional format to this podcast where I walk you through a variety of aggression issues. Some of the topics already in the episode library that you would receive immediate access to include territorial aggression, emotions and aggression, dog-to-dog resource guarding dogs that bite when being pet or handled, aggression on leash and a bunch more. These are solo shows where I take you step-by-step on how to work with each of these types of aggression. You'll find a little subscribe button on Apple Podcasts where the bitey end of the dog is listed, or a link in the show notes to subscribe using supercast.
Speaker 1:Your support of the show is very much appreciated and don't forget to join me for the fifth annual aggression and dogs conference, either in person or online from scottsdale, arizona, from october 11th to 13th, 2024. This year's lineup includes many incredible speakers, including Dr Clive Wynn, veronica Poutel and Gina Fares, sarah Rodriguez and Jess Arachi, emma Parsons, sarah Colnice, dr Kelly Moffitt, sam Freeman, dr Amy Cook and many more on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and dog body language to working with aggression and shelter environments, to genetic influences on behavior. Dr Amy Cook is also going to be bringing her entertaining and energetic personality to the grand reception and cocktail party which, by the way, will be live streamed as well as in person, and, as usual, you'll find a wonderful, kind, caring and supportive community at the conference, both in person and online, and I wanted to take a moment to thank one of our sponsors for the conference. As a family of world-class trainers, fenzie Dog Sports Academy provides expert and accessible instruction for competitive dog sports using the most progressive training methods and positive reinforcement techniques Through their Thank you partnership, and they will work with you to develop a respectful and kind relationship with your furry best friend.
Speaker 1:Check out FDSA at FENZI dogsportsacademycom. All right, we're back here with Carolyn and Lupo and we've been talking about PTSD in dogs and now we're going to get a little bit more into those preventative measures we were just chatting about before the break in puppies and gradually exposing them to the world and all these things that could be potential triggers or causes, rather, for trauma if they're exposed to it at a high level. And you know, I think that's also an interesting way to look at socialization and habituation and getting dogs used to the world. But sometimes we have varying degrees, you know we have people that might get overzealous.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I got to take my puppy to a hundred places in a hundred days and you know those rules of like active, massive amounts of socialization and others that are like, oh no, we have to protect our puppies and put them in a cocoon and they can't see anything or be exposed to any diseases or anything.
Speaker 1:So we got to find this middle ground, exposed to any diseases or anything. So we got to find this middle ground. I think that's why I was asking the questions about, you know, what are common causes for trauma in dogs, because we sometimes again don't recognize we have to, as you put it so eloquently, before seeing things through the dog's eyes, right? And so what about here's a little more kind of deeper dive question? What about here's a little more kind of deeper dive question the breeding that we've done or the selectiveness for certain traits in dogs, let's say, more hypervigilance or more scanning from certain breeds, herding breeds that we've bred to or selected for particular characteristics. So do you see that like, can we dive into that a little bit about what to consider when we have a certain breed Maybe it's a livestock guardian dog that's more aloof and suspicious of people approaching, and how that might play a role in trauma if they're more likely to be wired, so to speak, to do certain behaviors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean their DNA is already telling them you know, be aware of everybody that's not your pack. So if they experience something with somebody outside of their pack that kind of feeds that reservation, then those behaviors and those actions that they could take towards people that they don't know will increase, I guess. But it's different. I mean any dog being a St Bernard or a German Shepherd or Poodle, any dog experiencing harsh handling. I mean the common denominator in my study was human beings harsh handling dogs very harshly and punishing them and really being violent towards dogs.
Speaker 2:And it really doesn't matter what breed you are. I mean there's a huge risk of traumatization, are. I mean there's a huge risk of traumatization. But of course there's two sides to each coin. If one breed gets PTSD and the event included a human being and the fear inside of this dog makes them flee or panic or crouch up, that's one response. But a dog, like you said, a stock guarding dog or a dog with more vigilance as a natural, that dog could become more aggressive instead of fleeing the situation. So we'd have different symptoms, I think, different responses to the same kind of stress yes, yeah but having, like the dog you explained there, those life stock guarding dogs.
Speaker 2:I have a dog now, that benji. He's one and a half years old and he's a mix of three guarding dogs, herding dogs, and when he was a puppy, you know, having this in mind, there's that middle ground. You know, like you mentioned, mike, that we don't want to give this puppy to anybody to handle because that might make him scared and wary of people, but at the same time we want him to realize that people around him aren't frightening and then they won't, you know, do him or us any harm. So, finding that middle ground and and like with another breed that naturally are a bit wary of, of, you know, sounds, then we would want to practice that more with that kind of puppy and play a lot of different sounds and make a lot of different sounds and kind of also see where is just habituation enough. Where can the dog experience these sounds played on a computer or just rattling in the kitchen or whatever, and naturally they'll just, you know, become used to them. And what sounds will the dog not get used to? What sounds that we make or play will always make this dog shy away and those we have to counter condition and make like a fun game out of, but start at an early age and make sure not to overdo it.
Speaker 2:It's that middle ground again, just to do it a little bit now and again. And when the dog goes into their natural fear periods then I kind of pause all this kind of training and pick it up again afterwards. So to really set an individualized plan that suits that dog. And in that individualized plan we have to look at what breed is it and what previous experiences does this dog have it? And and what previous experiences does this dog have? And foremost, what is the dog telling us regarding his or her emotional life? When, when the dog is, you know, stood in a market or hears something or sees another dog, what's happening inside?
Speaker 1:yeah, and along those lines too it had me thinking about the different you've been mentioned, different developmental stages and they kind of. What are the impacts? You see, let's say it's a dog that has a very minimal socialization and then during a critical development let's say it's a puppy at seven or eight weeks but they were, let's say, a singleton pup and they see their, you know, they get attacked by a dog, something really bad happens. How much of a profound effect do you think that has, not only during their critical developmental stages, but also there's already a current propensity for fear of the universe. Again, another phrase that's very broad, but let's say the dog already has a tendency to be fearful of things and it's during the critical.
Speaker 1:Does that? Do you see a significantly profound impact when they experience trauma at that age?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, I do. I mean those ages are really critical, the fear faces, uh. So during that time I really want to with my own dogs. I want to keep them safe and sound and I do not really, you know, go out on on longer adventures or put them in situations where I don't have control of what's happening around or what people are coming up to them or what dogs we meet. So I really do take them out of of a lot of situations I I cannot control during those fear phases and then I pick it up again at the other, on the other side of them, because they learn fears and the fears are really cemented in them so easily during those phases. But I think the more work you've done before I mean before the first fear phase, they're really most dogs are quite happy-go-lucky and curious and they easily find their courage.
Speaker 2:So I remember my house. It was like it looked a mess when I had a puppy the last time, because there was these gates on the floors and there was tinfoil and there were all these you know balance boards and different things. It was scattered all over the place for the puppy to kind of, you know, run around and crash into you know nothing being dangerous, but making a lot of sound and the surfaces being, you know, slippery, slippery some of them, just to make the dog really safe and secure, regardless of what's happening around, having umbrellas or asking my son to put a big helmet on and walk around and toss the dog some treats, you know, vaccinating the dog from from being scared of weird things. Really early Early I played not only fireworks on the computer, you know, through the speakers, but also babies, you know, talking, cooing and giggling, because I have no babies in my house. My kids are older, so just getting them used to that kind of noise, so it's not a rarity and we won't risk that one try learning of it becoming scary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it had me thinking along the lines that even when we do that though it doesn't completely inoculate the dog to a traumatic episode, because somebody in a helmet your dog might be used to seeing people in helmets now, but somebody in that helmet could do something really bad to the dog eventually, and so it doesn't completely inoculate them, but it certainly adds a layer of protection. I guess, so to speak, of perceiving something for the first time with all of those other components in the environment, right. So in this regard, we've talked about preventative measures, but let's talk about what we can do to help the dogs that have experience, or we're putting this label of PTSD on. What can we do in more of a, if we're talking to the trainers and consultants that are listening in right now, what can we do to help these dogs? We mentioned very gradual exposure, going at the holistic level, gradually adding in the triggers that are not the direct context, I guess you could say. But you'd mentioned something very important too is control and safety, the feeling of security and predictability.
Speaker 1:So can you dive more to that detail? So let's say we're combining counter conditioning with that control. What does that look like for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is a really good question. I think a lot of dog trainers get a bit stuck in. You know desensitization and habituation, but there's a risk because what's happening actually when you work with habituation is that you're using extinction and there's always a risk in that and there's a big risk of overexposure. So I preferred really controlled trigger training with counter conditioning. And counter conditioning I mean it can sound like okay, so you play the firework sound, you toss the dog a treat and then you repeat that. But that's not it, that's not counter conditioning. So counter conditioning in this state is really having a very strict setup that the dog can predict foremost and can control. That's super important. Let's take an example. Let's say we're working with a dog whose primary triggers is sounds related to fireworks. So the setup would be the dog not in a sit-stay position, because some dogs they just go into working mode and they that don't connect with their heart, they mostly connect with their head and just want to be obedient because they want that tree or that toy. So I want to stay clear of any cues associated with kind of obedience training or what whatever you'd like to call it. So so just a setup where the dog knows that if I stand in this spot or if I move to this place, then the training starts. So, like a blanket or just a wait a minute sign rather than a stop, stay, cue, that's been taught. Then I'll place out like an external reward if it's a toy or if it's a treat, and I want my dog to focus on that. And then I'll always ask you know, are you ready? And if the dog looks at me or looks at the reward, the dog is saying I'm ready to work. I want to do this. If the dog shies away or looks away or yawns, or it doesn't have to do much, it doesn't have to walk off the actual blanket or leave the stage. It could just in any way express I'm not ready. That's when I just put my hands up and stop. And I'll still reward the dog with whatever I'd placed out there an external reward. I'll still give the dog that reward.
Speaker 2:Just to say you do not have to listen to the sound to get the reward. This is not, you know, a situation where you have to listen to a sound to get food or get a treat, because that's not fair. So I reward the dog even if the dog says no to training. But if the dog says yes, looks at me or looks at the reward, then I want to start teaching the dog that this results in me playing a sound. And if I start with a firework sound, I'm not being very kind, you know I'm scaring the dog, even if it's at really low level, so I'll start with a firework sound. I'm not being very kind, you know I'm scaring the dog, even if it's at really low level, so I'll start with any other sound I'll like click my fingers, or I'll play a sound of a cat meowing or a duck quacking, just something. So the dog hears a sound. And straight afterwards I always like to go bang. So instead of going go ahead or you know, okay, I'll just go bang and I'll let the dog run off and get, get the toy or get the treat, and we'll repeat this.
Speaker 2:And after a while, when I have like a dog that's really eager to practice, because this is a lot of fun and the sounds aren't that bad then I start really just adding some sounds that are similar to fireworks. They don't have to be fireworks, but they're just a similarity at a really low volume on my phone or in the speaker. And if this is tricky and the dog dislikes it. The next time I'll use one of those sounds I'll have like the earbuds in the dog's ear, so I'll make the sound even less loud by putting earplugs in. And I'll make sure that if the noises that we work with are 20, 30%, the sounds that the dog doesn't like, the rest will be sounds that doesn't awake negative emotions in the dog. So I always want to have a good and positive balance there and it's not about doing 38 repetitions. It might be six or eight repetitions and then we take a break.
Speaker 2:But that break isn't me talking to the client, not having focus on that dog. That break is always about number one stress release going out, running, jumping, barking, playing, tug of war, whatever the dog needs to release stress. And the second is helping the dog land. Again, you know to land softly. Maybe it's a treat search or it's a massage, or it's holding the dog close. It's helping the dog unwind after the stress release. And after that the dog is either placed back in the car or in another room, wherever the dog feels safe. So we have rest and then I talk to the client and after that we'll go back on and do maybe six, eight, 10 repetitions, again before a break, depending on the dog. So it's less is more and we have many of these sessions and I teach the client how to do this at home and this is like first phase training. And then it's phase two and three and four and five.
Speaker 2:And when we reach phase five when it comes to sound training, that is when we, you know, we leave. Well, in phase four really, that's when we leave the sounds on a computer or on a phone or, you know, on a speaker and we start making sounds that are similar to firework sounds. And after that, when we, you know, really reinforce the cue, bang, which means run towards your external reward when you've heard a sound, then in phase five we start using that bridge, that bang cue, in a lot of different situations. That's just in your everyday life, like the dog owner might be walking the dog and somebody shuts the car, a car door or shuts the lid of you know, a trash can and there's a noise and the dog owner can say bang and toss out a reward or a treat. And we start really helping the dog understand that this training applies everywhere.
Speaker 2:It's not just a setup. When we go see Carol, it appears at home, it's on our walk, it's in our living room, it's everywhere. And it's also in this phase where, if we've added medication, we want to start phasing out the medication to see will the results in the form of the dog feeling safe and secure and handling these kinds of sounds when they are not predictable, so when the dog can't foresee them coming. If the results are still there, good, then we can keep phasing out the medication. If not, we have to keep the dog on medication and we have to work more on sounds being unpredictable, because that's the reality In the beginning of the rehabilitation phase. We really want to give the dog control and predictability, but we can't just stay there because then we won't help the dog reach a level of security that actually helps them in real life where sounds will be unpredictable. That was a long answer to your question, mike.
Speaker 1:And I love that you're yeah, no. It's a beautiful answer because you really stress the need for choice and control as part of this program. It's so important that the dog can opt to say I don't want to do this right now, but still get reinforcement for it. I just interviewed Ken Ramirez and he was talking about this same concept with a beluga whale and teaching the beluga whale to say no, and I think it's such a powerful tool because one of the side effects of this sort of training as you'd mentioned, the extinguishing of behavior can come with frustration, which then, for a dog, one of the symptoms we were talking about refers that rage or anger. That can be a side effect of this trauma or trauma response, and we certainly don't want to see that, because this again is an aggression podcast and we talk about aggression all the time. That's one of the things we often note. So it's such an important concept, I think, to include really in any of your training programs, but especially with dogs that have experienced trauma.
Speaker 1:You know I want to take a little deeper dive into the training aspects here. In your paper you had explored some different training techniques and protocols that are used for these dogs, one of them being tattling. Now tattling is not a common phrase in the US, so can you just explain what that looks like really quickly for the listeners?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like it's counter conditioning really. But the dog is taught to look at the trigger or listen to the trigger. So say, for instance, the trigger is another dog. So I'm stood with the client and the client's dog and I ask a decoy dog to come out. So if I'm tackling training, the client dog will look at the decoy dog and straight away we'll give a reward, cue and reward the dog by our side. So the client dog will look at the decoy dog and turn around and look at us. And that's the tattling behavior to look at the decoy and then turn and look at us and we'll repeat this and reinforce this until our dog can look at the decoy dog and without us praising or saying anything or giving the reward cue, the client dog will automatically turn, spontaneously, turn around towards us and then we can give a reward cue and and mark that turn and then we really have that tattling, the turning away.
Speaker 2:What I also want to do with these dogs, because these dogs are scared, you know, that's why they flee or they get aggressive, because they are really, really scared. So out of the dog's perspective, a scared dog in a dog pack is protected by the protectors, by the guard dogs. God, you opened up a can of worms here now. But after the client dog looking at the decoy dog and then turning towards me or the client, I want that reward to be placed behind us. So the dog that's scared looks at the decoy and goes in behind us, which gives us a chance to act as the protector, to stand up and face the decoy dog and do so in a manner like a guard dog do. I always say to my clients like, look like a Rottweiler, stand there broad leg, focus on the decoy dog, so if your dog turns around, he or she can see that you actually got their back, you've got this covered, you're in the front line, you'll handle this, and that is super important for these dogs.
Speaker 2:I do another thing with dogs that are scared of other dogs or humans that I teach them to sit slightly behind their owner and the client. The owner puts their leg out in front of their dog, so their leg is like a barrier over their dog's chest, so they've actually placed themselves in the front line in front of their dog and then either me or somebody else or somebody with a dog comes walking towards them and the client, the dog owner, needs to look at their dog a little bit now and again, backwards and forwards, looking at whoever's coming towards them and at their own dog. And when they see that their dog is getting a little bit stressed out, then they'll put up a hand and say no thanks, my dog doesn't want to greet or just go away or give me some distance, whatever. Just say something, but act. Put up that hand and act, and whoever was walking towards them need to quickly turn around and bolt off. You know, as if they got really scared and was like I'm off, I'm not dealing with those two. And then we'll repeat this.
Speaker 2:And what we see after just three or four repetitions, this is super cool the client's dog behind them. They will stop lunging, they'll stop barking, they'll just look at their owner and go okay, do your thing off, because that's what we're teaching them. We're teaching them. You're not on your own. Your human being will stand in front of you and will scare off whatever scares you, because we have to meet these dogs where they are. We can't just. We have to have a strategy to help them feel less scared. But there and then in the now, they are deadly scared. They're fearing for their life on a daily basis.
Speaker 1:So we need to become that protector, we need to be that rottweiler and help them in in the everyday situations that they they meet there's so many ways we can unpack this too, because at the most basic level we might just argue that okay, it's the stimulus, is the cue in the environment. So to return to the handler for reinforcement, sort of like an engage disengage protocol or a look at that. But I do love the social learning aspect you put on it in that your dog starts to learn you're going to keep them safe, so you're advocating for the dog. And then we can also put the notion of the dog's got choice in the environment, so they can choose to flee. They could choose to lunge and bark. But we're just reinforcing, for us humans, the most desirable choice in the animal, which is returning to the handler and then going behind the handler as well. Yeah, it's really interesting for me to hear variations on this and why, for dogs with trauma, it's so important to have that additional element of that social learning where okay, my person's got this.
Speaker 1:They're advocating for me because it's a lot different than a dog that's not necessarily worried about their human advocating for them or it's not. You don't get the same trauma response. So, yeah, I love this and I'd love to kind of also talk about the different protocols that you mentioned in your paper. You had mentioned things like bats cats protocols that you mentioned in your paper. You had mentioned things like bats cats, counter-conditioning, tattling and even punishment.
Speaker 2:So there was a couple of them that were most effective. And what were those? The counter-conditioning and tattling, which is counter-conditioning, that's just an operant part in it. And then it was bat, of course, that had good effect, and punishment, of course, had the opposite effect. The dogs got worse or got re-traumatized.
Speaker 1:You had cited some resources and some other papers in your study. But why do you think punishment is so detrimental, especially in these cases?
Speaker 2:It's like. It's just like a never ending loop of harshness and violence. Really, I mean human or dog. If you've been subjected to violence and you have stress related issues because of that and somebody is trying to help you with them using more violence, it's just, you know, pouring more petrol on that fire. It's never going to put that fire out. So to me it's logical that more force will not help a dog in distress.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you think about the context too, where, just if we're going to that same context where the dog experienced trauma and then we add in something else to that context, well, we're already trying to strip away these secondary triggers and work with each one of them and suddenly we add something else that's another secondary trigger. When you think about it in that context at least that's the way my mind's wrapping around it like why would we want to do? That to the dog and add in something worse to an already bad situation, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I think the only reason why dog owners do that is because they lack the knowledge that they don't know what to do. They're frustrated. They might have a dog that's really fearful or has a high level of aggression and they do not know what to do. So that's probably why people land in trying to use more force to solve aggression, but most often they realize quite quickly that it's only making things worse.
Speaker 2:I worked with a dog the other day that was really really scared after harsh handling. It had so many homes more homes than it had years on this earth and it bit its owner when she tried to put the harness on or put the leash on, or it just went mad and just started biting everywhere. Really, she said I'm trying not to take this personal, but it really is, you know, hurting my feelings and my hands and I don't know what to do. And I said to her that she just needs to take her hands away. At you know, when it's actually happened. Just slowly take your hands away and slowly walk away and give the dog space. And then we set up like a training plan on how this dog gained control of putting on the harness herself and having you know this, this again. You know, are you ready cue and responding to that. And us never moving the harness on top of her, always her, you know, putting her head, sticking her head in the harness.
Speaker 2:And I said to her the attacks that she does. Now we use them to evaluate our training. So say she attacks your hand three times a day today. We want to practice and train in this manner and say, okay, in four or five days how many attacks per day do we have? And in a week or two weeks how many attacks per day do we have? So we're slowly getting down to zero. So some people just also have to understand that there. And then the symptom, the attacking of the hands, it's not. We don't act there. And then that's not when we solve it. We solve it in different manners, out of a holistic perspective and we see those reactions like you know a receipt is our training working or not? Are these attacks actually being minimized with the training or are they increasing? And I think that's super important always to evaluate whatever you're doing with a dog, trying to help a dog, always evaluate every measure.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great way to wrap up this episode and remembering the patience and really keeping an eye on things with our dogs and evaluating and meeting their needs and advocating for their needs. So thank you so much. This has been fascinating to chat with you and I'd love to find out where listeners can find out more about you as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can reach me on Instagram or on Facebook, either Carolina Lupo, or you can search for Petly, which is like a companion app for dog owners that I've helped create, so petly. And you can also download petly, you know, on on app store or google play, but on instagram and facebook you'll find me at carolina loophole excellent, carolyn.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us and I hope to see you again in the future. It was wonderful chatting with carolyn and I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Learning about what trauma is and how it can impact dogs or humans can truly shape and help our behavior change strategies and ultimately create more empathy for those who may be struggling. And don't forget to head on over to aggressivedogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression, From the Aggression and Dogs Master Course to webinars from world-renowned experts and even an annual conference.
Speaker 1:We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs. We also have the Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog-to-dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear-based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening in, as always. Stay well, my friends.
Speaker 2:Does that make any sense?
Speaker 1:Totally, and I'm about to sneeze, so I'm going to have John edit this out. Give me one second.
Speaker 2:Sorry.