The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Second Chances for Inmates and Dogs: A Story of Transformation and Hope with Mattison Simpson
Ever wondered how structured routines and dog training can transform lives? Join us in this enlightening episode as we welcome Mattison Simpson, a certified dog trainer and behavior consultant who found her true calling during a five-year prison sentence. Mattison shares her incredible journey from being overwhelmed by prison conditions to finding purpose through rehabilitating retired greyhound racing dogs and participating in honor dorm programs. Her story paints a vivid picture of how these programs provide inmates and dogs with a second chance and the profound emotional bonds formed through this work.
We also dive into Mattison's shift from balanced training methods to reward-based strategies, influenced by significant mentors and her evolving understanding of natural consequences in behavior modification. Learn about the broader impact of prison dog programs, including reduced recidivism rates and alleviated overcrowded shelters. Mattison emphasizes the importance of empathy, accountability, and second chances, not only for the inmates and dogs but also in her rebranded dog training business.
ABOUT MATTISON:
Mattison Skoog-Simpson is a certified dog trainer (CPDT-KA) and behavior consultant (CDBC) with nearly 8 years working experience and a focus on behavioral cases in the shelter and rescue system. Her passion is helping big feeling dogs and the people who love them create new channels of communication and step into a more peaceful life together. Lately her work includes trainer education and mentorship. Her dog, Remi, is an approximately 6 year old spaniel mix adopted as an adult from her local shelter in May of 2021.
Mattison’s business, Freed by Training, provides 1:1 coaching opportunities and self-paced resources to guardians and professionals. She has two audio projects: unPACKEd – the first clinical dog training podcast, taking an open-minded approach at helping real guardians, and Dog Training Bytes - a new interview series with canine professionals delivering valuable stories and lessons that you won’t find in any textbook.
You can connect with Mattison on Instagram @FreedbyTraining.
If you are a guardian seeking help with your big feeling dog, check out her library of resources or schedule a free consultation.
If you are a professional ready for an open-minded education and development program, apply to Mattison’s Canine Behavior Mentorship.
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This is a special episode that shines a light on how dogs can be so powerful and impactful on our own individual journeys through life, whether being the incredibly loyal companions dogs are known for or being catalysts for positive change in our own behavior. Dogs can rescue us in much the same way we may rescue them from difficult situations. Madison Skook Simpson, a certified dog trainer and behavior consultant with nearly eight years working experience and a focus on behavioral cases in the shelter and rescue system, joins me for this episode about the benefit of prison dog programs and how they impacted her life. Her passion is helping big feeling dogs and the people who love them create new channels of communication and step into a more peaceful life together. Lately, her work includes trainer education and mentorship. Madison's business, freed by Training, provides one-to-one coaching opportunities and self-paced resources to guardians and professionals. To guardians and professionals.
Speaker 1:She has two audio projects Unpacked the first clinical dog training podcast, taking an open-minded approach at helping real guardians and Dog Training Bites. That's a B-Y-T-E-S, a new interview series with canine professionals delivering valuable stories and lessons that you won't find in any textbook. And if you are enjoying the bitey end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there's a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression and Dogs Conference happening from October 11th to 13th 2024 in Scottsdale, arizona. With both in-person and online options, you can learn more about the Aggression and Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues. I also have a wide variety of webinars, upcoming courses, videos and articles, all from the foremost experts in training and behavior.
Speaker 1:We are your one-stop shop for all things related to aggression in dogs. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog. I've got a very special episode this week. It is a story of rehabilitation and second chances. I've got Madison Scoob Simpson here with me today and she's going to tell her story about her time in incarceration for five years and the true benefits of prison dog programs. So welcome to the show, madison.
Speaker 2:Hi Mike, thank you so much for having me and for giving me a chance to tell this story, kind of once and for all.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I so appreciate you being vulnerable and opening up with this topic, because I'm sure it's difficult for you to talk about or for really anybody that's been through this type of situation to talk about. So why don't we begin by you know from that point of incarceration and tell me more about what that experience was like and how you got into the prison? Dog training program.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think that's a perfect place for our story to kind of begin. It's important for me that we're not spending time talking about what happened before that, because I don't want any platform or profit or push to result from my crime. That's not what I'm trying to make happen. I want to talk about the experience of incarceration for me, the involvement in the prison, dog training programs, and how that changed my life and how I think it can kind of change our world. So I guess I say that it was almost eight years ago now that I woke up in a prison cell, broken with a capital B. I didn't really have a reason to wake up each day and so I wasn't. I was just sleeping 18 hours a day. That was the path of least resistance for me. But then I started seeing dogs, and where I was incarcerated for the first, first portion of my incarceration was a large facility about 3,600 women, and the housing facility that I started out in was roughly 250 women in one room called open style housing, so it was rows or bays of bunk beds and there was no even illusion of privacy, and I started seeing these dogs around around what they called the farm. That's what they called the facility the rehabilitation center. I started seeing these dogs around what they called the farm. That's what they called the facility, the rehabilitation center. I started seeing these dogs. There were different dogs. There was a lot of greyhounds and then lots of other dogs, some invest and some not. So I got curious and I started asking what that was about and found out there were a couple of different dog programs there at the facility that you could get involved in. One was specifically rehabilitating retired greyhound racing dogs and really about giving them the space to learn to be pets when they'd never been allowed to be pets. They had been profit machines. They had been, you know, just similar to horse racing. But then the other program was considered an honor program. It was in an honor dorm and that was compelling to me because those inmates lived in four-man cells and going from 249 roommates to three roommates was again very compelling to me.
Speaker 2:And there was just something missing, like when you don't even have a reason to wake up in the morning. That's sad, and at first I was willing to just do that, just sleep through five years. I knew I was going to be there for five years. I had a mandatory sentence and something just changed. I just wasn't ready. I wasn't ready to just sink into myself.
Speaker 2:I think it was the medications that they put me on that really made me hit my breaking point. I remember walking into the mental health department and they handed me a list of meds and said what do you want? You just got to pick, and the medication they gave me made me start sleepwalking off of my top bunk and sleep eating, and I was just really feeling out of control in a way that I never, never, would have enjoyed, and so I decided to do what I need to do to get into that program. So I applied, I interviewed, I did it and I got over there and, man, they run a tight ship.
Speaker 2:It was like a bootcamp, like a military bootcamp. You had to be up at, you know, about 6am, you had to make your bed. There were so many rules, and that was a really good thing because I needed that structure and, most importantly, I got to start working with dogs, and I think what they do really, really well is the first 30 days. Unless you have a buddy who is a more experienced handler with you, you don't even hold a leash. We practiced with empty leashes for 30 days.
Speaker 2:And I look back on that and I'm like, yeah, no wonder my mechanics are pretty good. I, you know, I rehearsed it like I was rehearsing dribbling a basketball or a dance step and that's why and I think the mechanic side of it is a little bit muscle memory and we just clocked hours and hours and hours of that and hours and hours of that and there were just so many benefits to being around those animals that I finally had a reason to get up. I had to, I had to take my dog out, I had to feed my dog, I had to walk my dog, I had to do all of these things that gave me a purpose, which I didn't think that I'd be like okay, I'm going to go to prison and find a purpose, but it happened.
Speaker 1:So tell me more about the type of training that was happening in there and what you were asked to do. So what kind of training, tasks, procedures, protocols, what was happening in there?
Speaker 2:The program has three branches to it and this is again at the first facility where I was, and the way that these programs are structured the ones that are doing well and the ones that are surviving within the prison systems in our country. They're very clever in the way that they are set up. So there's three branches. There is the Humane Society piece of the program which at a certain point I got to kind of run that and be in charge of that and that's where my heart was and that is where they're pulling six to eight shelter dogs at a time, rotating them through with inmates, teaching them fundamental obedience skills and making them look really adoptable and then getting them adopted out. And frequently they're adopted by the prison staff because they fall in love with them. The second piece of the program is a service dog training program where they've actually partnered with a company who brings dogs in on rotation and checks in every couple of weeks through these meetings. And that was for the inmates. That had been a part of the program for longer and had maybe a little bit more like actual ambition to get into dog training when they were released. This was an opportunity for them to take some basic skills and refine them into some more advanced skills, teaching things like place. For us that was a really advanced skill.
Speaker 2:And then the piece of the program that is volume-wise the largest piece and the reason that it's self-sufficient is the staff daycare program. So staff members at the prison and actually any state staff member maybe highway patrol officer we had wardens from other institutions bring their dogs for daycare boarding, grooming from other institutions, bring their dogs for daycare boarding, grooming, all of it and the prices. You had an inmate assigned to your dog. It wasn't many dogs to one person, it was one to one every single time. $3 a day, $5 a day, something like $8 for an overnight boarding like an absolute bargain.
Speaker 2:But that money doesn't go to the inmates because that's not the way that it works. You know there was not a lot of money coming to the inmates and that's the way it's structured. That went into keeping everything else running bringing in the food for the Humane Society program, paying for transport, paying for all the funds needed, just buying supplies, buying leashes and collars and things like that. And so the reason that's important is because there's not going to be any funding for a program like this. This is not something that the state government is going to set aside money in their budget for, so there has to be a way to find or create the money, and this does it.
Speaker 1:Makes sense. It makes sense. So it sounds like you spent quite a bit of time with. Was it one dog that you were assigned to most of the time or did you kind of rotate through dogs? And also, did the dogs spend time in the cells with you, like I know that some percent dog owners they actually sleep with the same cell or the same, the same area, right? So tell me more about that. Like, what was the day, daily routine with a dog?
Speaker 2:yeah, again, I want to talk about the first facility, because things were a little bit different at the other facility in the way that the program was structured and the rules and things like that. But at the first facility where I was, there's a secretary and she is the one who is assigning based on the tickets that come in from up at the front office, where the staff members are purchasing their daycare, boarding, grooming tickets Once a week, the secretary is assigning dogs to inmates. Now it changed, but there were many cases of, yes, I have a regular dog.
Speaker 2:For me personally, I had a regular dog who was my sergeant in our unit. It was his dog, it was his senior dog and I just had a special place in my heart for this very, very old dog that, like, really needed to be carried and needed to have his eyes cleaned a couple times a day and needed to have insulin injections twice a day. It just it was really special for me and so he would always be with me when he was there for daycare a couple days a week. He would always be with me when he was boarding because the sergeant knew that I was aware of all of his special needs as well. But there was also rotational opportunities, especially within the Humane Society portion which I ran. That's a really great place for trainers to develop. So we would do we found six-week rotations was the best for the Humane Society. So the dogs come in from the shelter and they stay until they have a reason to leave, but every six weeks we would rotate them to a new handler.
Speaker 1:Got it and where would the dogs be kept during the overnights, or you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they were in our cells. We had kennels and they would be in our cells in kennels.
Speaker 1:Wow, so you had a lot of time to bond with the dog that was under your care.
Speaker 2:It was 24 hours a day, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's amazing. Was that the same case in both facilities or?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the biggest difference in the second facility was that they were. The way that program was set up, I think, was even more clever, because there was actually opportunities for the inmates to earn a small amount of commission. The program was still self-sufficient, but we were able to earn a little bit of money which I was able to save up and have something to start my life over with when I left, which was great. But the biggest difference is that the program is created so that full-time trainers always have bottom bunks, which is not something that was even considered in the other facility and for many of the dogs at the second facility facility, the owners really wanted us to be treating these dogs like they were our dogs. So these dogs were in our beds, they were sleeping in our bunks with us.
Speaker 2:That was a very like, very intimate, very bond forming time where and that's where I actually, at the second facility, I spent time at I had a regular dog that I had three days a week for 18 months and every time he boarded and I was his groomer. So talk about, you know, forming a relationship with a dog. He was very, very special to me.
Speaker 1:And the amount of purpose that must give you. You know, to have something now to focus on. You know you had mentioned you're going from sleeping 18 hours a day to trying all these different meds to finally finding purpose. Did you see that shift happen kind of overnight or did it take some time from where you found yourself in those first few days to where you're flourishing and taking time with these dogs and getting being able to have purpose?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it definitely happened overnight, because it had to, because that program again was was designed to run like a boot camp. So the daily schedule five days a week you're up, you go to breakfast, you come back, starting at eight, there is a 50-minute long class on dog education some topic of dog education. Ten-minute break At nine, 50-minute walk where we lined up in like three separate lines and every dog and every person is walking, whether you have a dog or not, if you're, if you don't have a dog, you're a spacer in between people that do have dogs and you're practicing all of these skills that we're talking about. And then 10 minute break and then at 10 am we would do what's called a training circle. We do a 20 minute training circle where everyone circles up with their dog heel. Let's go have your dog sit, have your dog down, have your dog wait, take two steps away from your dog, call your dog to you and praise, right, and just running, mechanics, mechanics, mechanics.
Speaker 2:And then it was lunch and then it was repeat the same schedule in the afternoon. So that was the amount of education, interaction, go, go, structure. There wasn't room to be like. Is this for me? Is this helping me?
Speaker 2:It was like well, I'm here now, I'm in it and you are just in it.
Speaker 1:Wow, so tell me about how that helped you, or did it help you, I should ask, with your relationships with the other inmates, because you all kind of now have this common interest which is taking up sounds like quite a bit of your day and your time and your purpose there. Would you say that helped in terms of talking to others, relating to people again?
Speaker 2:I hadn't thought about it. But yeah, I think I really struggled over in the previous housing situation I was in to find ways to connect with people because my first instinct was to just retreat into myself and hide. And it's when you're afraid and you're scared you're not going to show parts of yourself to be able to make those connections. But when you are all gathered around a really really clear common interest, it's super easy to connect with people because you just talk about dogs and it's funny that you say that, like you know, you spend your whole day with them.
Speaker 2:I formed an immediate bond with my bunkie. I formed an immediate bond with one of my other cellmates and I remember for the first time being tired like at the end of the day, not just, oh, I'm going to sleep now, I'm going to sleep because that's, that's what there is to do. I'm exhausted. My body, my brain, everything is tired from an active and full day. It was a totally different experience and I remember feeling like that was a lot and I'm really really tired, but like this I can do lot and I'm really really tired, but like this I can do this. I can get on board with and just knowing right away that I was in the right place for where I was in that season of my life. That was the best place that I could have been.
Speaker 1:So it was a good tired.
Speaker 2:It was a very good tired, you know. I think that that's an important, an important distinction to make is like we have these moments and we have these activities that are going to drain us in a good way, and we have things that are going to drain us but it's going to be okay, it's going to be good, Like going for a hike or going to the gym, like you're tired but you feel good about that tired.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely, and you talk about. On your website, too. You actually use these words of empowerment and accountability. You know, and these things would you say you've learned through that experience, or is it something you were always thinking about throughout your life?
Speaker 2:Or is it?
Speaker 1:tell me more about those words that you've kind of chosen to use and some of your about me page.
Speaker 2:You know, the, the empowerment and the accountability pieces are such a big part of my life today I don't know that I've really taken the moment to pause and connect that back to that experience. But now that I am, I can see how the type of training that I do now and the way that I train with people working with them virtually every single day it's a lot like that because we're getting that daily interaction, that daily insight into what's happening. You know, it's not about oversight, Whereas I think that within the prison setting it inherently is going to be supervision.
Speaker 2:But I was forced into that daily accountability I had my sergeant's dog If I wasn't taking his dog out to go to the bathroom. His office was right there he was going to know. Also, the structure of the program is such that there are inmates in positions of authority and within that program specifically, they have given that authority power in the form of inmate to inmate reprimand, like a written reprimand, and you get five of them in 90 days you're out and it could be for not making your bed right.
Speaker 2:It could be because your shoes weren't tucked in. It could be because your drawer wasn't closed or your lockbox wasn't pushed in. It could be for something as simple as they heard you say a cuss word out on the yard and that's against the additional rule book that living in that program comes with that. The other, the general population of inmates they're not held to those standards. So I had roommates and bunkies and friends that they weren't there to tattle on me.
Speaker 2:But if I was not doing my job and I was not caring for the animal in my responsibility, somebody was going to know and that was going to get back to somebody who was going to write me a report and I was going to have to answer for that. So it never came to that. It did with others. So, yeah, I think there was a forced accountability that now I just see that as such an integral part of my life, my training of I ask people to hold me accountable for stuff all the time. If there's something that I want to make sure I'm going to show up for and I think I might struggle with that then I need a buddy, I need a partner, and that's what I like to be for people out there too.
Speaker 1:And, in a sense, when you think about it, that accountability that you, that was kind of put on you in that system, and when we think about the word empowerment, which is giving somebody the opportunity a dog or a person, the opportunity to act on their choices right, they have choices, they're empowered to make choices, to act on their environment. Can you talk about that sort of dichotomy and how you see it kind of fit into your training that you do today? So you had just mentioned, you know you like when people hold you accountable to your training and to the tasks that you have on hand, but on the opposite end, we have empowerment, which is giving the person the opportunity to be accountable, I guess. So what do you think about that?
Speaker 2:I think I can look back at that experience not just being in the dog program but just being incarcerated in general as the ultimate example of having no choices, no agency, no control over my own life. I was told what to wear, what to eat, when to be where, and when you're in it you don't really know anything else, nor did I have an option for anything else. But now the way that that affects the way that I train dogs is just coming at it from a person who knows what it's like to have their agency and voice taken. I had absolutely no say in what was going on around me other than trying to get myself into this program, and I think that there is a huge correlation between when I look around the industry because I also was in a very weird opportunity, very weird space to be able to come out and kind of have fresh eyes on this industry that I'd never been a part of and I see a lot of correlation between methodology and the way that the trainers are going to interact with their client dogs and the degree to which they know what it's like to experience that, to have their voice taken, to have their agency taken, to be able to empathize with an animal potentially in that situation. Now, again in that setting and in that situation seven, eight years ago now, I didn't have that lens.
Speaker 2:Like I can now reflect on moments where there were dogs that I thought were being rehabilitated, that were being taught new skills, and they were absolutely shut down and absolutely in a state of learned helplessness and there wasn't really any learning happening. And I think that that's probably also what I was experiencing was. You know, this is kind of my only option and my only choice. So this is what I'm going to do, and so I choose not not to use that in my training. I choose not to only give one choice and one option. I don't want the dogs that I work with or the people that I work with to only make decisions based on fear of repercussion. That's just not the way that I choose to operate, because it makes me really uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And when you think about the restrictions our society places on dogs right and in some extreme examples which you might even draw parallels to solitary confinement in some situations we have dogs in shelter systems and other confinement, long-term confinement I should say that is solitary, they don't have access to many other people if more than one person per day and no other dogs. And when you think about the detriment to their behavioral health I'll call it and you can look at those parallels. So do you draw upon that too, like just how much confinement you might see in your client's dogs and empathize with that and try to immediately start looking at giving that empowerment, giving more choices, really changing up the environment for that dog in a way that also if let's say it is an aggression case or something and that's where the dog has to be safely contained in some aspects. But can you talk me through more of that and your thought process there or your thoughts on it in general?
Speaker 2:Well, when I have a client who has a dog whose world is very small, for whatever reason, I think we have to look at why those are in place, right? Is it because the dog is terrified of the outside world? Is it because the dog poses a safety risk when they're in the outside world? And then it's just a matter of coming up with a plan. There's always plans to safely take steps forward period. There's always ways to implement more management practice, practice, practice and then take steps forward, even if they feel really small and insignificant. They add up just that 1% each day, right? Like, okay, you may only be able to get onto your front porch with a muzzle and a leash, but that's that much further than you were last week, and yeah. So I think there's a huge amount of empowerment there. And I think it's what's most important to the success of that type of training is building up the human's confidence in their own abilities and helping them feel ready, because that's what really matters is that they can mentally be prepared for that moment.
Speaker 1:CB. And just to go back a little bit too, you had mentioned you don't want the animal to feel like the only way to learn is because of ramifications or repercussions for their behavior. So is that something you really grew into or something with your training? So, in terms of the prison dog training methodology, in terms of your experiences there, did you find yourself like come on out the gate, I'm like all right, that's my thing, Like I'm not going to train dogs with any kind of corrections. It's going to be.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, no, I've been all over. I've been all over the board with that. So, looking at the two different facilities and the two different trainers that I guess I apprenticed under in those contexts the first one through reflection I can see it was a compulsion trainer and the second one was definitely more reward based. But there was probably some balanced elements in that. I think. Looking back, when I was first released from prison, I was operating as absolutely a balanced trainer. I did not start as a rewards based trainer or even using any of the really approaches I use today.
Speaker 2:I was also at that point doing more obedience work, which I think is where you see a lot of the copy and paste, balanced models, because they work and they can show really efficient results in some dogs. So people get really excited about that, about, oh, look at what I can teach this dog super quickly. And it took somebody who loved me enough to be brave enough to say to me Madison, efficiency is not enough, it's not enough. I know who said that to me. She was. She's a very, very dear friend of mine and I still remember it today that she floated that idea by me that I was delivering something to people and it was valuable, it wasn't enough. It wasn't zooming out to look at the whole picture that was happening.
Speaker 2:So I think that was a big turning point for me was when I was released and I started to get really curious about what was out there and just started educating myself from everything across the board, from e-collar training in particular, because that was something that we didn't have access to, that. So I came out into the world like what is this modern tool and just wanted to learn and understand it. And then I really dove into other animals because I thought there was a lot to be to be learned in just animal training in general. And I think that is what illuminated so many of the flaws in my previous logic in training, because with other animals you don't get away with the same stuff that apparently we're getting away with training dogs.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it sounds like this paradigm shift was really precipitated by this person. Helping you say, with the efficiency is not enough, and would you say that your experiences again in incarceration and the system that's in place there where there are repercussions, but they're also giving you what we might say is a positive reinforcer. We're giving you something to look forward to and to reinforce desirable behavior in the humans that are there and the population that's there. So in a sense, if we were to draw that parallel, it's kind of not an exact parallel, but if we're looking at that system it's sort of a balanced approach to behavior change. But then you are released and you get into the dog training world and you mentioned you had some sort of. You were starting out as balanced, I guess if you were to label yourself but that paradigm has shifted for you to a reward-based strategy, would you say you've had some of that. Past experience has influenced also your shift to what it is today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think that when I look at my experience as a learner in that prison dog training program, the potential repercussion of being released back out into general population yeah, that that would have been an aversive situation for me. So I did everything I could to avoid it. But that to me was that to me was more a natural consequence of my environment. That wasn't. It wasn't as much like a sergeant coming in and writing a ticket and immediately putting me out in population. That to me, would be like a swift punishment.
Speaker 2:This, to me, was a natural consequence of the environment and that's something where I do think I guess my background as as a balanced or more, you know, aversive style of trainer. I think it gives me a lens to be able to look for the consequences that exist, whether we want to acknowledge them or not, you know, because the world does provide consequences to us, to our dogs. There's, there's always going to be natural consequences and I think that we need to be much more critically looking at those and using them to our benefit or, at the very least, making sure they're not working against us.
Speaker 1:Interesting. I would love to jump more into what you're just saying there, but what we're going to do is take a quick break so we can hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. Sponsors, and we'll be right back. If you're interested in hearing more about applicable and immediate steps you can use with your own dog or in your cases. I have a subscription series called Help for Dogs with Aggression, which is an additional format to this podcast, where I walk you through a variety of aggression issues. Some of the topics already in the episode library that you would receive immediate access to include territorial aggression, emotions and aggression, dog-to-dog resource guarding dogs that bite when being pet or handled, aggression on leash, and a bunch more. These are solo shows where I take you step-by-step on how to work with each of these types of aggression. You'll find a little subscribe button on Apple Podcasts where the bitey end of the dog is listed, or a link in the show notes to subscribe using Supercast. Your support of the show is very much appreciated and don't forget to join me for the fifth annual Aggression and Dogs conference, either in person or online from Scottsdale, arizona, from October 11th to 13th 2024. This year's lineup includes many incredible speakers, including Dr Clive Wynn, veronica Poutel and Gina Fares, sarah Rodriguez and Jess Arachi, emma Parsons, sarah Colnice, dr Kelly Moffitt, sam Freeman, dr Amy Cook and many more. Head on over to AggressiveDogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts in dog body language to working with aggression in shelter environments to genetic influences on behavior. Dr Amy Cook is also going to be bringing her entertaining and energetic personality to the grand reception and cocktail party, which, by the way, will be live streamed as well as in person, and, as usual, you'll find a wonderful, kind, caring and supportive community at the conference, both in person and online, and I wanted to take a moment to thank one of our sponsors for the conference. As a family of world-class trainers, fenzi Dog Sports Academy provides expert and accessible instruction for competitive dog sports. The conference as a family of world-class trainers, fenzie Dog Sports Academy provides expert and accessible instruction for competitive dog sports using the most progressive training methods and positive reinforcement techniques. Through their online platform, students are able to access professional dog training, no matter your location or pup's skill level. Fdsa believes the bond between dog and human is a proud and life-changing partnership, and they will work with you to develop a respectful and kind relationship with your furry best friend. Check out FDSA at FENZI dogsportsacademycom.
Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Madison.
Speaker 1:We've been talking about prison dog training programs as well as all of the benefits that have come out of this story for Madison and the changes not only in her life but also in her training style, and we're talking about balance training versus rewards-based training earlier and how it's shifted in your what you were doing previously to what you're doing now. And you know, I love that we're drawing on these parallels because I think there's so much we can learn from changing behavior, whether it's in humans or dogs. So you had mentioned also, you know, some of the work you do now is with rescues or shelters, or you're getting dogs that your clients. They get a dog from a rescue and I'm guessing that there's a way that you explain things to clients to help them understand what their dog's been through, especially if coming from a background where their behavior was not fit for society.
Speaker 1:Right, for lack of a better phrase. But let's say they did something, they bit somebody or they did something that society would deem as not acceptable, right? Do you ever use those analogies, or do you ever talk more to your clients about it? Because I know it's not also something you're like probably advertising to your clients, but like where your past right. So do you kind of put in some parallels there, or do you even want to like have some thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Well, I made a conscious decision over a year ago to at the very least, take back my story and own my narrative, and I changed my branding completely. So my brand is freed by training. There's barbed wire on it. I'm not trying to hide anything anymore. That was a part of my life that I wanted to step away from. I was really feeling a lot of shame and I could have stayed living in that forever, and I chose to step out of it.
Speaker 2:So it is far more public now and in the last six months or so than I think it's ever been when it comes to discussing dogs' pasts, especially in the context of past and their oh and their troubled beginnings, and I think that there's very little value there in terms of creating a strategy forward. Now, if there's been an experience that's happened that they're totally aware of, it happened while the dog was in their care. It happened while they knew the dog. They have information on that. That's different. The dog they have information on that. That's different. In that case, I think it's less about teaching them to empathize with a creature making a bad decision, because that's how I feel. I feel like I'm a good person. I made a bad choice With dogs. I think it's more about, in that moment, again, doing the opposite, taking away a little bit of that, that empathy, and helping them understand that behavior is not yes, it's emotionally fueled, but behavior is a reflection of a function and there's a reason that that behavior was present, and getting more curious about that and focusing more on what management can we put in place. Yes, we want to be looking at what could have possibly caused and contributed that so we can understand it.
Speaker 2:But I don't think I frequently have to have the conversation with people about forgiving their dog or rehabilitating their dog. I do confidently tell you know most of the people that I work with yeah, I do think your dog can be fixed or rehabilitated or whatever, whatever language they use to me, you know, can this problem be solved? Can I get to the solution? Yeah, yeah, you can. Are you willing to show up? Are you willing to, you know, look at the timeline and acknowledge that that's not going to be in your control. Okay, cool, yeah, we can do this.
Speaker 1:Love it All right. So I want to jump back to something you had said before, because I think it's an interesting topic that we should dive more into, which is you mentioned something about learning in a microcosm, or you had limitations on the amount of information available to you, and even when you were released, there's still limitations, and sometimes we get into our one lane and it's hard to step out of that lane when we're given information in a microcosm, because we tend to find the same information, especially if we're on social media or any other way that the algorithms are feeding you the same thing. So what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:When I was in the institution. I think that was the ultimate microcosm, because the dog training education that we had was photocopies of photocopies, and what we had printed out and handed to us was fact and then we were tested on it too. So you knew it was true and they could have told us every dog had five legs and it would have been right there right Now. I know that they didn't. They didn't do that. They didn't intentionally give us false information, but there are certainly there was certainly information within that that is probably not relevant anymore that I maybe wouldn't agree with at this point. So I do think it's incredibly dangerous to only be taking in information from one source. Like I said, I think it's important to look at other species. I think it's important to look at other species. I think it's important to look at other industries and practices. My past life as a business person studying business there's so much about business and management and efficiency that has impacted my dog training in a good way. There's so much that I've learned and picked up in therapy that has made me a better dog trainer. I feel that by finally actually connecting with the right therapist and being able to understand my nervous system and the impacts that it was experiencing my nervous system and the impact that panic attacks were having on my nervous system, I could immediately see parallels to dogs. Now I'm not saying that every reactive dog or fearful dog is having a panic attack. What I am saying is there's been a moment that I've looked at a dog in distress and it just hit me like I've been there, I feel that that look of panic in their eyes and feeling so emotionally out of control in that moment and feeling like I couldn't be responsible for my physical actions, like that's really scary and frustrating. So I think it did give me some empathy to dogs with these big, big emotions and big behaviors that that come along with it. And along the journey of learning how to regulate dog nervous systems through various funnels there I was also learning how to regulate my own nervous system.
Speaker 2:I have a brain for patterns. I've always had a brain for patterns. When I'm having a panic attack I do like Fibonacci's in my head. I love the Fibonacci sequence. So something really repetitive and logical is my go-to skill set when I am pre-panic attack or in a panic attack. And when I saw the parallels between that and between food pattern games with dogs. For example, it was just this exploding head emoji moment of we can teach ourselves skills and then teach it to our dog, and it was so cool. It's such a great skill to have and to be able to actually watch it get put into action. Something as simple as counting can be beneficial to both dogs and people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it sounds like through your journey here you know you've again going back to the first part of your story. We're sleeping 18 hours a day. There's no purpose. You just just like, all right, I'm going to sleep, just to sleep, to learning about the prison dog program, to being released and really broadening how you're learning, it sounds like as well. So you get out of these microcosms, you start to expand into not only just training, but you mentioned other animals and your own therapy and how much is applied to dog training. Where in that did you see that really occur? Like you know, was it when you were just released? You're like, wait a second. Now I've got this new lease on life and I've got all of these learning opportunities. Why not just take in everything? I can soak it up like a sponge. Was there like some point or some epiphany or somebody saying something, some conversation?
Speaker 2:So there was an epiphany and it was because I didn't want to train dogs. I came out of prison convinced I was going to go back to corporate America, and that's what I did. I got a contract position. I got a 12-month contract working with a huge company doing corporate communications, making really good money, which I didn't even expect to be making right out the gate, but I was. Also, I had gotten a job at a daycare a dog daycare while I was waiting for things to process, making $9 an hour, and through that I started taking on some training clients because why not? I've got the skill. They needed some help, why not?
Speaker 2:Well, it got to a point I was basically working two full-time jobs. At that point I was working 39.75 hours on the contract job doing the corporate gig, and then I was training dogs and there was something really empty in my daily work. I felt that I was doing something that anyone who could navigate PowerPoint could do and it felt really meaningless, like it felt like what I was doing didn't matter and that was really sad. But then in the evenings and on the weekends I'm out training dogs and helping people and seeing the impact and see and like people are thanking me and just really grateful. And I'm seeing the change and I couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't continue leading these two lives one that felt really fulfilled, one that felt really fulfilled and one that felt really, really forced.
Speaker 2:So I left the 12 month contract six months in and had, all honestly, all the support in the world from my immediate boss. It was just, you know, don't expect to come back, but, but we're really really happy for you and it was really scary and there were a lot of missteps, certainly when I first started training full time. But I'm really really happy now with what I'm doing, with my life, and I would never want to go back to just having a job that I did to get a paycheck, which was exactly what I was doing. I don't think I could. I genuinely don't think I could. I think it would be intolerable to me at this point, because I wake up with a fire in my chest every single day. That just makes it pretty easy for me to get through my workday and to get through what I'm doing, because I love it that much.
Speaker 1:Yes, and clearly you're a shining example of prison dog programs and the benefits of them, so let's talk more about that as well. You had mentioned a couple of different programs, but can you give me a rundown, more of what you know about the different programs out there and the benefits that you're seeing, and talk us through some of that as well?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. They have so many benefits to both the human and animal populations here in our country. And I say in our country, and I say in our country and I think that's really important to look at as well, because the United States incarcerates at an insanely high volume compared to anywhere else in the world and it's because it is not entirely, but in many instances, a for-profit structure. Many of these institutions are private institutions. They are for-profit and they get a big fat check for every single inmate that walks in the door. That's why you see inmates sentenced to prison, not jail, prison time for 22 days. We as inmates call that a petty felony when they're literally just sending you there where it could have been classified as a misdemeanor. But it was instead classified as a felony in order to get more profits into the prison systems. And we won't go into the correlation there between those individuals and the judges and the justice department. But there are so many benefits to these programs. When you look at the recidivism rate and recidivism is how likely is an inmate, somebody who has been convicted of a felony, sent to a prison, has been incarcerated, they've been released. How likely are they to re-offend and the impact that these programs have on the recidivism rate. I don't have the numbers, but I know that it's substantial. I know that it's making a huge difference.
Speaker 2:Zach Scow in California with the Positive Change Program is a really, really well-known program that does just this does these prison dog programs on a larger scale than anything I've seen. It's used in multiple institutions and the other thing that this is doing on top of reducing recidivism, on top of increasing productivity just within the inmate population and improving lives and bringing a service to the state employees who are like, oh my gosh, I can board my dog for $40 for a week, that's great and have an inmate trainer training that dog full time, like there's so many benefits to the people. But we can also reduce the shelter populations. The fact that we are paying we taxpayers are paying to house both humans and animals in separate facilities across our country is silly when they can be housed together and we can save a lot of money and we can give people purpose and I just think that there's a lot to be done for our communities by tying these two things together, where there's such an untapped resource within the inmates.
Speaker 2:I'm going to tell you this like from a first person perspective. We do not feel taken advantage of in those programs, are we Maybe? Maybe In the ones where there's no money coming to you? Maybe, but we don't feel that because the alternative is worse. The alternative is still not seeing money, but also not having a purpose, but also not having something to really make the experience worthwhile. And I know that that sounds backwards, but there were so many times while I was incarcerated that somebody came to speak to us and was like this doesn't have to be a waste. This doesn't have to be five years gone, 10 years gone. This doesn't have to be well, it's just done for me. There are second chances, there are opportunities to step into a new life and I really want to be gosh, not the poster child for anything. But it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter where you came from. It really doesn't matter if you were incarcerated or if you had an addiction or if you were homeless.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter where you came from. You are able to help people and if you can work through what you've been through and release that fear of vulnerability, you're going to be able to meet people where they're at in a way that probably nobody else can.
Speaker 1:That's really well said, and I appreciate you sharing that insight, because it's things that we need to think about much more, and I'm really glad you're bringing this to the forefront and talking about it more. So, yeah, thank you for sharing that, and I think that's a good way to wrap up, but before we do, I'd like to know what you're working on next and where people can find you.
Speaker 2:Well, I see clients, virtually client dogs. That is using the in my opinion, revolutionary. That is using the in my opinion, revolutionary, necessary model of daily, daily training, daily virtual training. I said accountability, but there's also a ton of empowerment. The empowerment piece is that you don't need me to train your dog, you don't, you're enough for your dog and you know a trainer can help you get there. But I don't want owners, guardians, to be told you're not enough for your dog. I don't want to be putting that message out in the world. I also have a behavior mentorship for other trainers who have been through some type of initial education on like core learning theory and they want to learn more about behavior change and the emotions underneath of it. And I also have some business resources coming out for other dog trainers. So you can find all of that at wwwfreedbytrainingcom.
Speaker 1:Excellent, madison. Thank you so much. We'll be sure to link to all those links in the show notes, as usual, and I hope to see you again in the future.
Speaker 2:Thanks, mike. I really appreciate you allowing me to tell my story in this way and talk about things that I've been wanting to talk about, but I think it's hard sometimes to start this conversation, so I really appreciate you being really curious about these programs and what we can learn from them accountability, redemption, empowerment and empathy with me.
Speaker 1:Dogs can have such a profound and positive impact on the lives of humans, and I'm sure Madison agrees. Please consider supporting your local prison dog training program, as they often rely on donations from fellow animal lovers like yourself. And don't forget to head on over to aggressivedogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression from the Aggression and Dogs Master Course to webinars from world-renowned experts and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression and dogs. We also have the Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression cases, such as resource guarding, dog-to-dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear-based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening in and, as always, stay well, my friends.