The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Standing Up for the Little Ones: Abbey Johnson on Advocacy and Respect for Small Dogs
"Can't we get a little respect?!"
Our pint-sized companions often don't get the respect they deserve, a topic we dive into with Abbey Johnson, a keen advocate for small dogs. Abbey shares her journey from initially fostering a small dog with behavior issues, to becoming a well-known defender for these little champs, shedding light on their unique needs, training strategies, and the need for representation in dog-related conversations.
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ABOUT ABBEY:
Abbey Johnson CPDT-KA, FDM
"Understanding animals and their behavior has always been a passion of mine. I grew up surrounded by dogs, cats, horses, and various other types of animals throughout my childhood onwards. The more time I spend with animals, the more I realize the disconnected communication we often tend to have with them. Animals, and dogs especially, are always talking to us. It’s our job to stop, listen, and kindly teach them about our human world!
I have an extensive background working with shelter and rescue dogs. Stemming from this comes my special love for small breed dogs, and although I work with all dogs from Chihuahuas to Great Danes, I get a lot of satisfaction from helping people reach their full potential with their small breed dogs, who can often be overlooked and misunderstood. I strive to make my two rescued small breed dogs, Phoebe and Pocket, an example to the fact that small dogs are just as trainable and just as deserving of a fulfilled life as any other dog! We spend most of our days learning tricks, practicing nosework, adventuring out in nature, or curled up watching movies on the couch.
I graduated in 2018 with my Bachelor’s in Psychology from Auburn University, and continued on to work for over 5 years in animal sheltering/rescue, where I generated a lot of experience handling various dogs with different degrees of behavioral needs. From there, I pursued my passion for training by becoming a multi-certified professional dog trainer, and haven’t looked back! I strive to be approachable, accessible, and non-judgemental when working with clients. My goal is always “progress over perfection,” and I will never try to hold you to unrealistic or unhelpful standards when working together. We do better when we know better, and all of us always have something new to
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If small dogs had a theme song, it would probably be Aretha Franklin's respect, because, let's face it, small dogs certainly don't receive enough RESB-ECT in our society, and this is especially true in aggression cases. Abby Johnson joins me for this episode, which is packed with useful tips and strategies to help our small dog companions in this world where everything can be so much bigger and often scary. Abby works for Positive Futures and is a CPTT-KA and a family dog mediator. She also runs a small breed dog training Facebook group she recently started where people can get free professional training advice for their small breeds. You can find that by searching up Small Breed Dog Training all one word on Facebook. And you definitely have to check out Abby's TikTok account, where she posts many useful tips and strategies for training and working with small dogs and chihuahuas, and you can find that at the Positive Chihuahuas. And if you're on Instagram, her handle is at the underscore positive underscore chihuahuas.
Speaker 1:And if you are enjoying the buddy end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there are a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression in Dogs conference happening from September 29th through October 1st 2023 in Chicago, illinois, with both in-person and online options. You can also learn more about the Aggression in Dogs master course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues. Hey guys, welcome back to the bitey end of the dog. I have a super special guest this week, abby Johnson, who I discovered somewhat through TikTok and the Positive Chihuahuas channel and other places as well. She's on Instagram, definitely getting all kinds of great information about small dogs that we don't get enough chance to talk about, I think. So welcome to the show, abby.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're going to dive right into the conversation. I think we have lots to talk about. So first, what got you into focusing on small dogs in the first place? What's your interest? What got you picked into that?
Speaker 2:Yes, so it was definitely not always my interest. I kind of used to be a hater whenever it came to small dogs. I played a lot into a lot of the similar stereotypes that we hear about and I'm sure we're going to talk about a lot in this episode and I actually ended up changing my mind whenever I got my first dog, phoebe. So this was back in college. I was a really big newbie to training in general and I took her in as a foster and kind of figured out that she has all of the stereotypical behavior issues of small breed dogs. She's got the stranger danger. She would resource guard. She had some fear and anxiety issues and I ended up keeping her and so she was kind of my first little dipping my toe into small dog ownership.
Speaker 2:As I went through the shelter world I kind of noticed that there was a lot of discrepancy between the way that small dogs who came into the shelter behaved or were treated versus the larger breed dogs and that kind of struck a chord with me as I continued to work through the shelter system and then I ended up foster failing another small dog, my second dog, pocket, who is my little socialite. I love her so much, and she was kind of the one that helped me dive straight into being really into small breed dogs. So whenever I got into training this past couple of years, I decided that I wanted to make that my niche, because I've noticed that there is a really big gap in the conversation whenever it comes to small dogs and they're kind of left out. So I think it's a really important niche that needs to be talked about more.
Speaker 1:For sure, and everything you're saying resonates with me. Actually, my first small dog was this little dog named Izzy and very similar same thing like came with all kinds of issues, and I was never a small dog person either and I kind of was like you know, because most of my work I was seeing larger dogs. Yeah, and she really got me to love small dogs, because how can you not right, once you you know because you know dogs are dogs are dogs in the sense of when we're working as trainers in a way, and how much we love dogs, and so when you have a small dog come into your life, I mean you just you just hooked right and so that's what happened to me.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it's a different kind of love, for sure, once you get a really good relationship with a really small dog. I mean, they're obviously adorable because of their size and on top of that, they have a ton of love to give if you give them the chance.
Speaker 1:So how many, how many dogs do you have now?
Speaker 2:I have two, so I just have Pocket and Phoebe right now. We will see about number three in the next coming years or so, but for now just the two of them. They're both my foster fails. Phoebe's a little terrier Chihuahua mix. She's a tripod, so she only has three legs. And then Pocket is my little Chihuahua thing as well, so she's mostly Chihuahua, but who knows what else is in there?
Speaker 1:And I was thinking about you just yesterday because I stumbled upon this TikTok video, was sort of a senior dog type of situation. But also I saw a couple of younger dogs but there's like probably this woman had like 50 dogs, like all around tons of small dogs but a few larger ones in the mix. I'm like I'm going to have to ask Abby, how many small dogs when you think of I, sometimes you see like 10, 15 small dogs, just as they don't take as much space. It's the largest.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm trying my hardest not to become that person until I'm in a place where I can do that. It's really hard. I have to pass up all of the little Chihuahuas for adoption posts on Facebook and stare at it a little bit too long and then move on. But we've just got two for now, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, speaking of social media, we often see small dogs being subjected to things that shouldn't be subjected to any dogs but, for whatever reason, it's happening much more, and at least from my feed to small dogs. So what are some of the common things you're seeing and what are things you want to talk about to help educate people about the plight of small dogs, especially on social media?
Speaker 2:So yeah, if you follow me on TikTok at all, you've probably seen me talk about this at length. This is something that I talk about all day long because it's all over the internet. It is in a huge disproportion compared to large dogs. Of course, you see the social media accounts occasionally with the Rottweiler or the other large breed dog, but there's a massive disproportion between the amount of videos that you're going to see of Chihuahuas and small breed dogs attacking their handler for going to pet them while they're laying on their bed or guarding something from them, and people are out here intentionally antagonizing that response from their dogs because they think it's funny, because obviously the Chihuahua can't send you to the hospital as easily as the Labrador Retriever can, and so there are I mean, entire social media accounts dedicated to just poking fun at their small dog and their small dog having these massive visceral reactions and just posting it to the internet. And if you go through the comment sections of these videos, that go super viral because the algorithm loves drama and anytime you see a dog exploding on your screen, you're going to sit there and watch the whole video. But if you go through the comment sections of these videos, it's really disturbing.
Speaker 2:Honestly, you'll see people talking about you know, I'll kick any Chihuahua that I see, or this is why I won't ever get a small dog All kinds of things that are perpetuating significant harm right, so you know, we're encouraging people not to get these dogs. This is how dogs end up in shelters. We're encouraging people to be violent towards dogs who are having really significant stress reactions. Right, so it's a really serious issue. To me. It's very hard to get people to take it seriously because people don't take small dogs seriously in general in the first place, but it's something that we definitely have to start calling out and calling people for how we see they're treating their dogs right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and thank you for doing that, because you're actually it's not easy to be on social media and growing such a big channel. You've got a lot of followers and also advocating, so you're kind of like the perfect person for this, because not all you know we have. You know people that advocate for you know, like, for instance, senior dogs, but oftentimes it's difficult to also, you know, keep up on social media and also follow the trends and also, like, pay attention to the comments and have the time for that. So kudos to you for doing that. And the things that we're thinking about too is that you know the problem I have.
Speaker 1:I have multiple problems with it, but one of the biggest things I think of is you know kids watching that stuff. So you know somebody's 12 year old child, the 10 year old child that may not grasp the particular risks of doing that and then going to try it with their own dog and maybe it's a dog that is much larger too, so they don't equate the size often, right, and of course, you don't see people doing this. You sometimes see it, but most of the time you don't see people trying this with like a rottweiler or Connie Corso or something that is going to be significantly more threatening. Why do you think that is like the perception of oh, it's just a small dog, so it can't really do damage, what? What do you think that is just, you know, a matter of size, or is it more to it?
Speaker 2:I think that it really comes down to it being a pop culture thing more than anything else, because small dogs are typically known just by, like the regular lay person, as you know, a low maintenance dog, a really convenient dog to have their purse dogs right. So they're super easy to take care of because they fit into small, convenient spaces, they're easy to carry around with you, when in reality that's not necessarily true, but we can get into that in a little bit they are definitely just the same whenever it comes to like their cognitive and emotional abilities in terms of, like you know, labrador retriever or a great Dane right. So there's no difference between the two. But it's really easy, whenever you see them as these easy, convenient dogs that are super low maintenance, don't need a whole lot of care, to also say they don't need a whole lot of respect and they don't need to be treated the same way, emotionally and relationship wise, as any other size dog.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, in relation to the size aspect too, one thing that also concerns me is that you know people think small dog can't do that much damage. But you know an interesting fact, if you really dive into the details, like so they talk about in the book dog bites it's from Daniel Mills and a bunch of other authors but they look at the forensics of dog bites and the way the teeth set in the jaw structure of some dogs, so like a Chihuahua, can actually do more damage to a child than some of the larger breeds. And so it's a consideration that we shouldn't take these small dogs for granted, terms of the amount of damage they could do, because of what we're doing to them in the name of some funny video, right?
Speaker 2:Yep, absolutely. They have the same amount of teeth in their mouth as any other dog does. I know I saw somebody on social media talking about how she was either holding a Chihuahua or, like went to get in the Chihuahua's face and the Chihuahua ended up biting her and took her eyelid off, so she had to go to the hospital for that and go through all kinds of like reconstructive surgery. So it's definitely not something that's as common whenever you hear about small dog attacks versus large dog attacks, but they still have very much capacity to do damage. Even though that's not the only reason we shouldn't be antagonizing them that way, it's still really important to keep that in mind, especially with families with small children and people who are not super dog savvy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah Again, I mean anybody who's creating those videos, hopefully listening in pause for thought to think about the people that are watching that, the kids that are watching that, that might replicate that at home, right? So let's jump into some of the training aspects or considerations. So maybe let's look at general training and then we'll jump into, like, the aggression stuff. So what are considerations? You have small dog, but obviously there's some in terms of the mechanics of what we need to do with training. So what are some things you've picked up over the years?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so on one hand, small dogs are just like every other dog with needs. So that is something that's really important to me in my training methodologies to make sure that I am meeting all of my dog's needs. Before I try to address a quote unquote training problem, right, because there are so many training issues that we see that are just stemming from a dog who doesn't have all of their needs met. And this is something I really have to push home with small dog clients because of that prior stereotype that they understood about the dogs being low maintenance, not needing to go for walks, not needing exercise, not needing mental stimulation. A lot of my clients don't have an even ever heard of what enrichment is. So we kind of have to start on that really foundation of making sure that all of the dog's needs are met and also making sure, especially with small breed dogs, that they feel safe in their living situation and their relationship with their people.
Speaker 2:That's something that I see a lot that is not really picked up on or noticed by the client.
Speaker 2:So we have to do a little bit of adjustment with clients first on the human end of things, to make sure that the dogs feeling safe in their interactions with the person and they're you know they have a good relationship foundation to start on before we get started with any more complex training, especially because a lot of people don't really consider how their size in relation to their small dog makes their interactions a lot more intimidating.
Speaker 2:So even if you have a small dog that isn't showing aggression based issues, I still see a lot of dogs showing avoidant body language or, you know, fearful body language whenever their person is simply just trying to reach down and give them a pet over the head or, you know, pick them up and give them a kiss on the face. So the human end of things is where I start. Whenever I'm starting with a client, I make sure that the relationship is really solid and that the dog is having needs met before we get started with any kind of training. People have a really hard time with that, usually like no looming over the dog, not scooping them up in the air unannounced. Picking up small dogs is kind of a hot button topic.
Speaker 2:And we enter their personal space bubble a lot more than we think to allow them the option to enter ours. So those kind of small changes can bring a ton of success into a training program with a small dog. But I'd like to make sure that everybody's kind of on the same page with that, that we're going to continue forward with a training plan on the basis of respect.
Speaker 1:That's such a good point. I love that you mentioned that because it's definitely not something a lot of people think about, because you obviously wouldn't go pick up 130 pound Connie Corso. We don't think of that because we just physically can't do it mostly the time. But small dogs we think we can get away with it, just because you know five, 10 pounds or whatever it is. And so, yeah, it's so interesting when you think about why we think we can do it right, it's just a matter of time. But obviously we have to think about that respect aspect. Yeah, so some of the training techniques let's say we're working with a small dog for loose leash walking or any other types of training. What are the differences there between that and like, say, training that Labrador?
Speaker 2:A lot of people struggle with treat delivery with small dogs. A lot of people talk about how they have back pain after a training session because you're constantly bending down to deliver treats to your dog With loose leash walking or anything that kind of requires a lot of that. The person is standing, the dog is down half a foot off the ground and they're having to reach down and deliver treats to them. I like to work on alternative treat delivery tactics, especially because a lot of small breed dogs don't actually like it whenever people take their hands and shove them in their face right. It's very off putting. So we'll see some dogs who are a little bit hesitant to take treats directly from people's hands, who are walking down the street with them and then looming over them right, stooping over them to shove a treat in their mouth, and the dog is like I don't really want to participate with this. So we'll work on delivering treats to the ground strategically. That takes a little bit of practice and a little bit of hand-eye coordination on the humans part. So that's something that we practice a lot and then anytime that we're doing any kind of training that requires the person to stand, if they can be in a stationary position. I also like to deliver treats into a dish on the ground for the dog that they can predictably go to, so even just like a shallow little Tupperware dish and you know as soon as you mark and you drop the treat you can drop it in the same spot every single time for the dog to go retrieve. And it's really helpful for people who have issues with stooping over or bending over or their dog finds that kind of treat delivery to be unpleasant for them.
Speaker 1:So in that regard so people that have physical limitations or physical disabilities is a kind of the same process where making sort of almost a location specific reinforcer but it can be super helpful. Can you talk us through some of that a little bit more too? Is there any other adjustments?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I can also. This is one of those kind of hacks that you've probably heard on the internet. That's a little bit hit or miss. But something else that I like to do with that as well is have some kind of target stick that I can deliver treats with as well, so that can literally just be wooden spoon. People say wooden spoon with peanut butter.
Speaker 2:I personally have a found peanut butter to be a super valuable reinforcer for every dog, like it's kind of advertised, but you know, something soft, something spreadable to put on there as well. Anything that we can do that gets the small dog off the ground and kind of either eye level with the person is a lot easier for a lot of people as well, especially if you're somebody who needs to be sitting down whenever you're training. But getting up and down off the floor is kind of difficult. We'll even do training like sitting on the couch, right, so you'll have one person sitting in a chair, the dog has the couch and we'll have a training session that way. So there's all different kinds of ways that we can get creative with that, making sure that training is accessible for people who need it, especially whenever your dog is only a few inches off the ground.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. So you do a lot of foundational stuff, you know, in an environment where the dog can succeed and the handler can succeed well with that aspect. What about some of those the remote treat training like so treating trains or pet tutors? Do you find those are also very helpful?
Speaker 2:Yep, I definitely find those to be helpful. They're a little bit expensive, so I don't always have clients who are either able or really willing to spend all that money on the treatment train, so we'll do more so of a location specific marker instead. Usually for those I'll teach them a get a cue, which just means I'm tossing a treat on the ground and you're going to get to go chase it, which again is a much better alternative for a lot of really tiny smalls than shoving a treat in their face with your hand, and they find that to be really unpleasant. We'll do a lot of that, but the treatment train does help a lot. It's just a matter of whether the client is kind of bought into purchasing one or not. That can be a little bit of a barrier with those. Sure can.
Speaker 1:Just jump it back to the target stick and you mentioned something like the peanut butter on the spoon type of situation. Do you find that some dogs are suspiciously getting a little bit frightened by any type of object coming down to them, and do you have any recommendations if they have that response?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we'll work on that as a skill entirely before getting started with any kind of training. So if the dog finds having something presented in front of them, like the wooden spoon, for example, to be kind of like a suspicious thing, especially if it's kind of shoved in their face, we'll do a little bit of work with the client on their hands first and make sure that the dog is coming to them instead of them shoving the spoon in the dog's face. So if you present it a couple of inches away from their face or even a foot away from their face so that they have to step forward to acquire the reinforcement, it's a lot more pleasant and it helps a lot of small dogs get a little bit more confident with that. Then if you were to just shove it right in their face and be like hey, like this peanut butter off of this spoon, right?
Speaker 2:I also see that a lot with the squeeze tubes. So we'll use squeezy tubes or like a travel shampoo bottle filled with, you know, canned food or something like that for dogs, especially ones who have dental issues, and they can be a little bit suspicious of eating out of those at first because you're just presenting them an open bottle right, and they have to look at it to get the food out. So in those kind of situations I'll also put a little bit on my finger first and let the dog come to my finger and I'll let them, you know, realize that it's something tasty, it's something that they want, and then I'll continue to feed them off of my finger until I get closer and closer to the shampoo bottle and then I'll just present it out of the shampoo bottle as well, and that helps a lot to just get them comfortable with it before we ever try to use it as a reinforcer or ask anything of them in a training context. So sometimes eating food like that is a skill in itself, especially with smalls who don't have a whole lot of history with training and they find all that kind of stuff to be a little suspicious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, shout out to Bark Pouch, which is a store company that make these little. You know they're like the old Gerber baby food tubes we used to use. But now they're like Bark Pouch, I'm not sponsored by them at all, but I just I love shouting out products that I love.
Speaker 1:So In that regard, have you seen any like cool, like somebody come up with an actual treat dispensing device where it's like a combination of a target stick, so like picture, like almost a very thin PVC tube where the treats can drop from the top all the way down to, with maybe a little dish at the bottom where the small dog can actually get it out of there so the person doesn't have to lean over or loom over and you know you go through the same conditioning process. Have you seen anything like that?
Speaker 2:I have not, other than people kind of doing little DIY ways to work with smalls in those kind of ways. It's something that I think somebody who is really good at inventing things and creating devices like that needs to jump on, because there are a lot of small dog owners who would definitely buy something like that. There's a big lack in accessible training products for small breed dogs in general, so that's something that a lot of people struggle with and definitely are looking for solutions with. So anybody you know, has that creative mind and wants to get something like that going.
Speaker 1:There you go and then they could partner with you, like the Abby Johnson treat dispensing for little kind of device. See this. It all comes together in this podcast, right? All right, so let's move on to when you have, you know, dogs that have a history of aggression and we're working with you know it's getting into something like the creative protective contact type of situation, like you as the trainer or you're working with around children, strangers, other dogs, whatever it is. So so sort of a broad question right now. But what are your thoughts on that, or what do you usually implement when you're working in an aggression case with a small dog? Considerations With a small dog yeah, yeah, I mean general considerations.
Speaker 2:with small dogs there are a lot of on the handler side of things that we need to work on for first before we get into, you know, getting into the nitty gritty of the training session with the small dog, especially because a lot of people who are bringing you in because their small dog is displaying aggressive behaviors are doing so after the dog has had a lot of history of having those really big explosive displays right. So it's usually a small dog on a hair trigger. People, typically with smaller breed dogs, wait a little bit longer before they reach out for help. So that dog's probably got a really big history of the lunging, the snarling, the biting, the really big explosions working really well, and so that's kind of what they're jumping to quicker and quicker. So on the handler side of things, I like to start with making sure that I go really in depth with education about body language signals, especially with smalls, because they're closer to the ground, their facial expressions and their small low level signals of stress are way more subtle than any large breed dog because they're, you know, farther away from you and they're a lot more understated. So picking up on those small low level signs of stress and intervening at that point is going to be a lot more effective and you're going to be doing a lot more quality learning for that dog if they can kind of adjust to those low level signals than waiting for the dog to explode every single time before making an adjustment in the training session, right? So making sure that we are listening to those low level signals instead of waiting for the bite is going to be a really imperative place to start with small breed dogs.
Speaker 2:I also like to make sure that, in terms of like management, that I'm teaching my small dog owner how to how to advocate for their dog, because that's something that a lot of small dog people struggle with, especially because everybody else, is going to be a really big issue in your training program.
Speaker 2:I see it all the time with my dog, phoebe. You know, whenever I was more intensely working on her reactivity, she's gotten a lot better. Now Half of the battle for me was getting other people to leave her alone, even just, you know, walking down the street. At the time I was in an apartment complex People don't necessarily take that very seriously. So making sure that you can kind of proactively advocate for your dog and make sure they're not put into situations with people or other dogs or anyone that you don't know, where they're probably going to struggle and probably have that big reaction, is something that a lot of people need help with or just kind of permission to do, because it's really easy to just have people blow off your little dog and say, oh, I don't care, I'm not scared of your dog, and you know that's not the point. The point is I'm trying to prevent my dog from having these big reactions in the first place.
Speaker 1:What do you recommend people say or what do you recommend they do? Because I could totally get that, like you know, small or cute looking dogs or dogs that have certain cuts or whatever it is they're going to get a lot of attention and people just aren't going to listen.
Speaker 1:So it's a. I can empathize with that the pet guardians that are out there that have to deal with that all the time, with people just coming up oh, such a cute dog, and the dog does not want anything to do. So what are your strategies there? What do you recommend? A?
Speaker 2:couple of different things that I do. First thing that I do that's a little bit less, you know, an official of a recommendation is I give people permission to be rude if they need to. That's something a lot of us struggle with. You know, if we say no, thank you, or my dog's not friendly, or anything like that, and people don't listen, they're like, oh, it's okay, and you kind of don't want to be rude to them. So you're like, okay, and you know what's going to happen next. Right, but you don't feel comfortable standing up for yourself. You definitely have permission to do so if you need to say no and kind of turn your back on people. That's something I do a lot with my smalls, especially because I take them hiking a lot. So if we see a dog or people coming and I want to put my dogs off to the side of the trail and just have them pass by without a greeting, I'll make sure to be really intentional with my body language by putting my back to people so that they don't feel like I'm inviting an interaction with them. Other things that I typically do a small specifically is I depending on the client and depending on the dog and their handling sensitivities or anything like that.
Speaker 2:I recommend people pick their small dogs up if they don't feel like it's a situation that they're going to be able to mitigate very well. I think picking dogs up as a great management tactic. I know there are some trainers who may disagree with me on this, but I've seen a lot of success with it. So I will tell people, especially if they can practice this proactively and put picking up on a cue so the dog knows that it's coming and just pick them up.
Speaker 2:If you have food on you, continuously feed, shout out to Amy Cook with the magnet hand technique. It works really well with small dogs. The only adjustment that you need to do is just be holding them instead, and so I will just get my dog out of the situation, pick them up proactively If I see something approaching that I am not sure that my dog is going to be able to handle, and it helps a lot because you can kind of turn and body block your dog from being able to see the trigger and it's you know. Obviously people can't really come up and crowd your space. If you're holding your dog, it's a lot easier for you to just turn and walk away if you need to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's kind of the universal, like body language, like hey, no, don't touch.
Speaker 1:you know, the one I've been recommending a lot now is just saying no, no, no, he's contagious Because it also works really well to me my dog or like, so they give a little pause and that gives you time to get out of there without having to be, you know, like really direct or rude. They kind of gets them thinking for a second to give you time to get out of there. But I love how you're giving all these tips to advocate. Right, you've got to advocate for your small dog because of all of these issues that they can face, like you know, with people coming up and not recognizing it and just thinking they can get away with it because it is a small dog and you know we can jump into some of the equipment in a little bit too.
Speaker 1:But one of the things I've seen and I had actually taught a class out in Marin that Marin Humane Society and one of the sort of handler teams was using a stroller a baby stroller that could be covered, and she got a lot of flak for that. Like oh, that's so ridiculous. I'm like that is the best thing you could do for your dog because you're in it and especially in the area that's very congested city environment, it's almost impossible to take your dog somewhere to get to where you want to actually do some training, of work or where the dog's going to be comfortable. So you have to get out of your apartment building to the park, going down the street with his other dogs and people reaching and trying to touch and all this other stuff. So the stroller nobody knows it's a dog, I think it's a baby in there, nobody bothers. And then you just get to the location, then you break the dog out and then you can work and the dog is completely comfortable with that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, there's a ton of anthropomorphism type arguments for all that kind of stuff. Whenever it comes to small dogs, people will tell you picking them up as enabling them, putting them in a stroller is enabling them. You know, putting a jacket on your small dog is treating them like a human and all of that is bad and going to make your dog even worse. For the most part, a lot of those kind of stereotypical things that people will shame you for whenever it comes to looking after your small dog's needs Are actually probably going to help them more than anything else.
Speaker 2:Anything you can do to make sure that your dog feels safe and feels comfortable is absolutely something you should utilize, especially if you have a dog with any kind of behavior issues, especially related to fear, reactivity, aggression, a lot of that kind of stuff is. There's no basis for people to say that it makes their behavior any worse. You'll probably see an improvement in behavior if your dog starts to know and trust that you're going to be able to handle the situation for them and they don't have to worry about things that they're worried about Usually. I will have to kind of reverse that mindset with some of my clients because they'll say you know, I was told that he has to get over it, and I should never pet him.
Speaker 2:I should never pick him up or do any of that kind of stuff, which is completely false and probably going to help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you're bringing up so many things that we don't think about. But again, I can totally see that where they get all of this advice from other people, all these wives tales that get passed along for a long time, yeah, and we talk about it on the show all the time.
Speaker 1:You know you're not going to make a dog that's fearful more fearful by comforting them or picking them up or putting them in a place of safety. It's just going to help in the long run. So, yeah, yeah. So we're going to take a quick break to hear word from our sponsor. We'll be back to talk about a little bit of the equipment we can use with small dogs. Hey, friends, don't forget to join me for the fourth annual aggression and dogs conference, either in person or online, from Chicago Illinois, happening from September 29th through October 1st 2023. This year's lineup includes many of the amazing guests you've heard on the podcast, including Sue Sternberg, dr Tim Lewis, dr Christine Calder, sinhore Bangal, sarah Streming, sean Will and Masa Nishimuta, and many more. Head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and veterinary behavior cases to working with aggression in shelter environments to intra household dog dog aggression. We'll also have special guest MCs Taylor Barconi and Geo Arcade, who are sure to bring their positive and uplifting vibe to the conference. And, as usual, you'll find a wonderful, kind, caring and supportive community at the conference, both in person and online. I also want to take a moment to thank one of our wonderful sponsors this year Pets for Vets.
Speaker 1:Did you know that approximately one million shelter animals are euthanized in the US every year? At the same time, many of our country's veterans are experiencing post-traumatic stress disorder, traumatic brain injury, anxiety and or depression. Pets for Vets founder and executive director, clarissa Black, created a solution for these problems by rescuing and training animals for veterans. Pets for Vets has a unique program model that customizes each match to create what is called a super bond. Each animal is selected and trained specifically for each veteran, based on matching personality and temperament profiles. Additionally, clarissa has developed an assessment protocol called ACE or ACE, that allows other animals the choice and agency to participate in the Pets for Vets program based on their response to multiple stimuli. Pets for Vets has a positive reinforcement mentality at its core for animals, veterans and trainers. In addition to helping veterans and rescue animals, clarissa has created a generous opportunity for positive reinforcement trainers to join her organizations. Trainers are able to participate from anywhere in the US while receiving stipends, professional development opportunities and maintaining a flexible schedule. For more information, please visit PetsforVetscom. That's PetsforVetscom.
Speaker 1:All right, we're back here with Ivy Johnson. We're talking about small dogs and all the ways we can help them and all the issues they're facing too. So I'd love to continue the conversation on equipment and what you think, because there's some universal equipment, but there's sometimes, with really small dogs, that manufacturers don't make sizes small enough for the small dogs. And since we're in an aggression podcast, we can maybe look at muzzles. That's one of the top questions I get about muzzles. Like I have this size dog. What muzzle do you recommend? And we know, like some of the sort of more mainstream muzzles, like the Baskerville, the smaller size, it's still too large for a lot of these small dogs. So what is your experience there? What are you recommending these days?
Speaker 2:Yep, I usually will first kind of gauge where my client is at like financially or dedication wise, especially if it's going to be a dog who needs long term muzzle use or is going to need muzzle use on a frequent basis, not just for like a week or something like that, or like in specific situations. So in those kind of situations I will see if my client is willing to get a custom made muscle. There are a ton of really cool small businesses out there that are awesome to support that will allow you to send them your measurements and so they can make a muzzle that's specifically custom to your dog's snout, especially shorter snouted breeds, or, you know, even Chihuahuas have pretty short snouts. So going custom is always going to be the best way to go about things, and that's kind of just goes for all small dog equipment recommendations. That's just the unfortunate state of the current situation whenever it comes to equipment and training equipment and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:I also really like the plastic muzzles that are the Greyhound style muzzles. Those can typically go in a little bit of a smaller size and those are a little bit easier to fit on small breed dogs, especially because most of them have that more narrow snout, then they do the wider snout that a Baskerville would probably fit better on. And again, like you said, the Baskerville doesn't usually even go small enough anyways. So either custom or going with that kind of narrow plastic shape of muzzle is going to be your best bet.
Speaker 1:Good, I'm glad my information is not outdated yet because I'm running along the same lines with you. On Amazon. I send people to get there's different companies. That's why I never can get the actual brand narrowed down, because it's like these companies that you know, like the Amazon people that do buy stuff from other countries and then they sell it and then it's a different brand name but it's usually the same product.
Speaker 1:It's from Alibaba or something like that. But they have these awesome sets of muzzles that look those plastic style like you were talking about and they sell like six or seven different sizes and it's like you get a six or seven muzzle for like 30 bucks. So for the trainers listening in, that those are actually. They're decent muzzles too. They don't have the additional safety strap like over the top of the head as some of the other designs and muzzles, but they're actually pretty safe for most cases. They're not going to be for high level bite risks they're not the best, but for most of your cases you're going to be totally fine. You can actually cut a little bar out in the front of those to create like a little treat hole as well.
Speaker 2:A little treat spencer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then, yeah, their smaller size is usually small enough to fit most of the small breeds and they usually fit pretty well, as long as there's a little real estate on the muzzle for the muzzle to actually sit on. Shout out to Trust your Dog, which is a custom muzzle. They make the custom biothane muzzle, so it's trust-your-dogcom. They are a sponsor of the conference, so I feel comfortable shouting them out for sure. But yeah, they make great custom muzzles and they're in the US, so it's convenient for anybody living in the US. So what about things like harnesses? Do you see? These are particular brands you like for real small dogs.
Speaker 2:So I am not super married to any kind of specific brand whenever it comes to smalls, although I do like to recommend harnesses as opposed to collars as much as possible, unless the dog has some kind of equipment aversion that we're going through working on. I generally will recommend that people use harnesses more so than any other size dog, just because there is such a significant risk of, you know, leveraging your dog a little bit too hard. They go to bargain lunge at the end of the leash and they're hitting the end on their necks. With their necks being so small and fragile and so many small breeds being prone to issues like collapsed tracheas, I just like to keep all of that pressure off the neck as much as possible. A lot of long backed breeds as well, like doxins and things like that, do a lot better on harnesses, because that damage to the neck can also travel all the way down to the spine and they run at a much higher risk of spinal injuries.
Speaker 2:So with harnesses, I always like to make sure that people are looking for freedom of shoulder movement whenever they are trying to pick out a harness, because there's a whole lot of again, small breed equipment types of harnesses out there that are just not that great.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of, you know, those random businesses that are kind of just selling something that looks pretty or looks good but it's not actually all that comfortable to the dog. But I do like to make sure that I'm keeping all of that pressure off the neck. In terms of like leashes and long lines, I always look for really lightweight materials over anything else, because that can have a really significant effect on the dog's comfort level whenever we're out walking or training, and I like to look for either biophane or paracord can actually be a really great leash option. I know there are people out there who sell paracord leashes, but I actually made my own paracord long lines actually to friend tie the knots for me, but I had my own paracord long lines that have been better than anything else I've gotten so far. So if you're somebody that's crafty, looking into paracord leashes or long lines is a really great way to make sure that your leash is lightweight enough that it's not affecting your dog's movement.
Speaker 1:So just for anybody that's listening in that may not know what paracord is, can you just describe it as like round or flat, or what is it made out of?
Speaker 2:It's round, it's almost like a cotton like substance, so it's very, very lightweight and you can usually find it at like hardware stores, but one that I found was at like a camping store. It was just this 30 foot paracord line with a carabiner, and I ended up tying it so that there was a handle on the end and then the carabiner on the other, and it's just, it's almost like string, but it's very, very strong and it's very durable. It's not just like cotton thread or something like that. That would be a lot more likely to break.
Speaker 2:So, it's a lot stronger than that.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, interesting. So any other equipment ideas or anything that you typically use that we might not be aware of with the, if we're in the large dog space, right that you suggest.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I find that a lot of training equipment with small dogs. This is like a really great convenient thing with small dogs is that you can use a lot of household items that you couldn't use for a larger breed dog to use for training right. So I have a little step stool that I use for my dogs for cooperative care, for them to chin, rest on right. So anything that's really small and short, like look for things in the kids section are really great for training dogs. I'll also use like bath mats you know the ones that you put in your bathroom as places for my dogs or whenever we do mat training or settle training. So that's really convenient. Anytime you can go to like a dollar store or a target or a Walmart and go through the kids section or through the bathroom section. You can find a lot of training equipment like that for them, which is really great.
Speaker 2:If you are like me and you're kind of looking for options on a budget and like as for training treats and that kind of stuff, I like to make sure that I am obviously not feeding my dogs too many calories.
Speaker 2:That's something that is really difficult for a lot of small dog owners, especially those who have to use a lot of food throughout the day or their training a lot throughout the day. So I'll try to make sure that I'm using things that are nutritionally balanced as much as I can, right. So I'll look for dog food toppers if I have a dog that needs a little bit more than their regular kibble, right? So those freeze dried dog food toppers are a really great way to make sure that your dog's still getting some balanced nutrition, because they're going to be eating a lot of that food. Also, lickable treats for dogs are a really great way to make sure that you're only giving them a really small portion, right? So, like I mentioned earlier, with the shampoo bottle the travel size shampoo bottle filled with yogurt or canned dog food you can just give them a really tiny amount per repetition to make sure that you're not overfeeding them as well.
Speaker 1:I think we're brainstorming right now the Abby Johnson line of small dog products. Yeah, there's a big gap for it Muzzles treat dispenser with it. You know, with a target stick I mean, see, here we go. I could see it. Three years from now we're going to be hearing about this.
Speaker 2:Oh, I hope so. Yeah, that would be awesome.
Speaker 1:So let's dive into breeds, so small dog breeds, because actually it's something you know I'm not a good breed recognition person at all, like I'm the person the worst person to ask. It's actually the one thing I failed when I was taking my first, like way back when I was one, to this dog training school, like the breed identification test. That's the one part I like miserably failed, that I don't know what it is. So I'm now okay with identifying large breeds and kind of knowing the large breeds much better. But the small breeds I again I didn't see a lot of them in my aggression work. I did, of course, but not not anywhere near as many as the large breed dogs. So let's talk about the small breeds In terms of the groups. I know you're also an FDM so you know some can grow these work and looking at breeds. So talk more about that. Let's kind of talk generally first and then we'll get into some specific stuff. So thoughts on just like small breeds and aggression in general, then we'll get from there.
Speaker 2:So there are two big types of small breed dogs, right, two large groups. We of course have the terriers on one side and then we've got our toy breeds on the other. So terriers on one hand are you know, both officially and you know, temperamentally a breed type, a breed group of their own. They're obviously known for chasing, hunting, killing small prey. That's what they were mostly purpose bred for, right. And then we've got our toy breeds, which are my personal favorite. They're the kind of dogs that I have, right, and I really love a lot, who are essentially bred for companionship, right. So they're supposed to be our companions. They're supposed to want to spend a lot of time with their humans. They are supposed to be friendly and affiliative.
Speaker 2:Whether that is what we always see in small breed dogs is a little bit of a different conversation, but that's intentionally what they were or initially what they were bred for, right. So that's what we want to see. We want to see small breed dogs who are able to easily connect with people and we want to make sure that all of those kind of social needs that they have are being met. We also see a lot of separation anxiety with small breed dogs because of that and we will see a lot of kind of alarm type behavior, so like alarm barking, some of that reactivity, stranger danger, because they have their close knit family of people that are kind of just their inner circle right. So a lot of the time with small breed dogs those are the kind of things that we'll see.
Speaker 2:We'll also see a lot of resource guarding with more toy breeds than anything else and then with those terrier breeds we'll usually see a lot of that prey drive that people struggle with and those high energy needs. Terriers tend to be pretty high energy dogs in general. So if you're looking for like a sport prospect or you want to get into any kind of high energy type of activity but you're wanting to live the small dog life, a terrier might be a better fit for you as opposed to a toy breed, although we do have some pretty drivey and energetic toy breeds as well. Every dog's an individual. I've seen some Chihuahuas be pretty excitable and pretty energetic and really eager to train and do those sports and high activity sports. So I really like toy breeds because they have the potential to be that kind of like all around dog If you go the right routes of acquiring one and make sure that you're raising them the right way and make sure that you're advocating and training and socializing and meeting all of their needs like they need.
Speaker 1:And you brought up a really important point there's meeting the needs of the dogs. So what are, like, some of the most important needs? Because you know, especially for the toy breeds, because we can talk about all dogs in general. But the reason I'm thinking about this too is, you know, again, when I was out in California I was, I had visited a few shelters and one of the breeds that we see a lot of there and in southern, southwestern US too, is Chihuahuas and some of these toy breeds. Do you think it's a function of we're just not treating them like dogs, we're treating them sort of like as fashion accessories, so we're completely missing the whole point and then missing the socialization, missing meeting their needs. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That is something that I try to drive home a lot whenever I'm kind of advocating for small dogs, especially Chihuahuas. Like you're saying, we saw Chihuahuas all the time coming into the shelter whenever I worked in the shelter and that was probably our number one small breed dog that would come in was some kind of Chihuahua or Chihuahua mix, followed by other various toy breeds, right? So it's usually the toy breeds that are coming in as the small dogs, and it's usually because of that pop culture issue that we talked about earlier, where people don't think that they're a real dog, they don't think that they have all of these needs that they do, the dog ends up developing a lot of behavior problems because the dog is not socialized at an early age and their needs aren't being met. And then we see dogs with really significant behavior problems. Right, and because people find them to be, you know, this convenient choice, if they don't want to go all the way into getting a large breed dog, they want a convenient apartment dog that usually become really popular the small breeds and then people are going to less ethical routes to acquire one. So we see a lot of mass breeding. We see a lot of backyard breeding with small breed dogs.
Speaker 2:So they're already starting out at this genetic disadvantage, and then, on top of that, they're not getting that early socialization like you're talking about. People don't believe that they really need to go out. There's a really big misunderstanding about what socialization really is among a lot of laypeople. Most people think that it's just meeting some people, meeting some dogs and calling it a day there, right? So a lot of those small dogs don't ever see the outside of their home Until they are fully sized adults. And then all of a sudden they're barking, lunging at every single stimuli they see out on a walk or anytime somebody comes in the house, the dog is, you know, sounding off the alarm bells, trying to run up and attack them.
Speaker 2:So we have these dogs that are already at a genetic disadvantage and then they don't get those early socialization experiences that they need, and then they continue to live their life indoors so they're not getting any of that mental or physical stimulation that they need either. And you know we obviously have this whole cycle that continues to repeat, because everybody then sees these dogs with these behavior issues and thinks, oh well, that's just how small dogs are, that's just what Chihuahuas are like, or, you know, that's what anybody who I've ever known who has a small dog is like, and there's nothing we can necessarily do about it, because it's not like a care or a training issue. It's just who they are as a dog, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we see these misnomers or these names you know, the demon, Chihuahua or something like that and like people blaming the dog or the breed, and this one especially such a clear, you know, example of why we need to blame the culture surrounding the dogs, the people involved with this culture, not the dogs. You know, these dogs are lovely.
Speaker 2:When in the right environments and we're meeting their needs, we're creating that issue and then we end up we ended up naming this and blaming it on the dog, which is really sad, yeah, it is, and it's something that has become so deeply ingrained in our culture around dogs that I have even, you know, in recent months seen a couple of rescues advertising some senior small dogs as either great for somebody who wants to start a viral social media account because the dog has behavior issues right, or they're just this like.
Speaker 2:They'll use words like you know, if you want to live in a Chihuahua health scape, take a walk. You want to live in a Chihuahua health scape, take this dog and adopt it. And, of course, obviously they're trying really hard and they're trying their best to make a dog with some pretty significant issues appealing and get that dog placed. I mean, that's obviously the overarching goal that they're trying to get to. But, you know, do we really need to be going that route of pushing that stereotype that's continuing to harm these dogs onto people? If this narrative is being pushed by reputable organizations as well, why would people think any differently about their small breeds behavior right, or think that maybe this is not the way that small dogs are supposed to be?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I truly appreciate the work you're doing to advocate and send the right message out there about what we need to change. So other resources. So, besides yourself and we were talking about this, there's not a lot. So I'd encourage you to send people to learn more about small breeds or even working with aggression in small breeds, or just small breeds in general. Where would you send them? What?
Speaker 2:are some of your favorites. Bye. I'm a big fan of free and accessible information for anybody who is looking for it right, so I actually recently started a Facebook group that is not just me. It's actually like a really great collaboration of several other positive, reinforcement based trainers. For enthusiasts and regular pet people alike. It's just a great place for all of us to come together and build a community. It's called Small Breed Dog Training, and if you are listening to this and want to learn anything about small breed dog training, please feel free to come join us over there. It's a really great place that we're going to start building a lot of like easy to access resources for people, and also people can just come in there, share their successes, share what they're struggling with, ask for training questions, and it's all in this very tight knit community of other people who have small breed dogs, so we can kind of bounce ideas off of each other that are relevant to the types of dogs that we're working with.
Speaker 2:I also have a webinar recording, and this is more so for average pet parents than anything else. It's called Small Dog Savvy on our training website, and I have just basically like a overarching plan to revamp that webinar pretty soon, so we'll do a whole revamp of it and get all kinds of new updated information, get a little bit more specific on some of the topics that I hear people struggling about, and we'll get that up on the website, probably within the coming year or so. And then, obviously, this is something that probably a lot of trainers know, but Emily, who is Kiko Pup on YouTube, is really great to look for if you're looking for visual examples or visual demonstrations working with small dogs, because she's got a couple smalls and puppies that she works with on our channel, specifically Chihuahuas, and it's really great to see kind of the difference in mechanics between the large breed and the small breed. So that's a really great free resource to look out for as well.
Speaker 1:I highly agree with that one. Yes, definitely, and thank you for sharing those. I will be sure to link those in the show notes and also all the other things. We're going to have a lot of show notes for this episode. You've thrown all kinds of great information on us. So, speaking of show notes, where can people find you and learn more about the work you're doing?
Speaker 2:So I work for Positive Futures here in the Atlanta Georgia area. You can find us at PositiveFuturescom and it's spelled P-A-W-S. So, like positive futures, we also have a YouTube, instagram and Facebook page where we share a lot of free, accessible information as well. You can also find me personally on TikTok. My username is the underscore positive underscore Chihuahuas. I talk about all kinds of things there. Small breeds are definitely a very popular topic because I have my own and that's kind of my passion, but we talk about all things training there. I definitely like to share information there as I'm able to get it, so that people have more free, accessible information. That's good quality on social media, especially TikTok, where you can hear every kind of information that conflicts with each other and it's really hard to sift through, but that's my main social media channel for dog related content. I'm also on Instagram under the same username, but I post there a lot more, just like personal pictures of my dogs, pictures, videos, updates. If you want to learn more about Pocket and Phoebe, that's a great place to go.
Speaker 1:Excellent, Abby. Thank you so much. This has been wonderful. I learned a lot of different things and I'm sure the listeners are going to get a lot of value out of this episode. So thank you for advocating for small dogs and for everything you're doing.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I really liked it.
Speaker 1:What a great conversation that was with Abby. She really packed in so much useful advice into one episode and I hope you had some nice takeaways as well. And don't forget to head on over to aggressivedogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression from the aggression in dogs master course to webinars from world renowned experts and even in annual conference, we have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs. We also have the help for dogs with aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog to dog aggression, territorial aggression, fair based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you are listening in on Apple podcasts. Thanks for listening and stay well, my friends.