The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Navigating the Hard Realities of Shelter Behavior and Rescue with Saharai Salazar
Our guest this episode, Saharai Salazar, works tirelessly on the frontlines, dedicating her life to dogs labelled aggressive and facing euthanasia due to misunderstood behavior. Navigating the world of shelter behavior makes for tough decisions and emotional toil. Sada takes us through the unique challenges she faces in evaluating dogs with fear and aggression, underlining the importance of a holistic approach to behavioral evaluations and behavior change strategies. The heartbreaking call of deciding on behavioral euthanasia, the effects of the pandemic on the industry, and the balance between no-kill missions and humane decisions are laid bare in our heartfelt discussion. Sada's dedication to these dogs, her resilience in the face of adversity, and her unique take on the spiritual experience of her work will leave you in awe.
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About Saharai:
"My name is Saharai Salazar and I am a shelter behavior specialist who works primarily with behaviorally-challenged and euthanasia-listed dogs, especially fear and aggression cases. I earned a bachelors degree from UC Davis in Wildlife, Fish and Conservation Biology with an emphasis on canine behavior, ecology and evolution and have worked at various shelters over the last 20 years. While I enjoy working with private clients, my biggest passion is shelter behavior and finding practical solutions for the unique challenges we face in the industry."
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This is a powerful and emotional episode with Sarai Salazar, an incredibly gifted and talented trainer working on the front lines in the shelter world. Sara and I discuss many of the emotionally challenging aspects of working in this often thankless industry and share much of her personal journey along the way. Sara Yi is a shelter behavior specialist who works primarily with behaviorally challenged and euthanasia listed dogs, especially fear and aggression cases. She earned her bachelor's degree from UC Davis in wildlife, fish and conservation biology, with an emphasis on canine behavior, ecology and evolution, and has worked at numerous shelters over the last 20 years. While she enjoys working with private clients, her biggest passion is shelter behavior and finding practical solutions for the unique challenges that are faced in the industry. She'll be speaking at the upcoming Aggression in Dogs conference, happening from September 29th through October 1st in Chicago, illinois. Her presentation will focus on practical approaches to behavior change strategies for shelter dogs with a history of aggression.
Speaker 1:I also want to give a content warning for this episode. As we discuss assault and trauma, listener discretion is advised. Hey guys, welcome back to the bitey end of the dog. I'm super excited for this episode. We've been kind of focusing a lot on the human side of the equation when we're talking about dogs and people this season. So I'm really excited to chat with Sara Yi Salazar here about all of the work that she's doing in the shelter world, as well as what she's kind of learned over the years in working with humans and dogs, but focusing on the human element as well. I think it's fantastic that we get to chat about this. So welcome to the show, sara Yi.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me, Michael. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1:Yes. So I discovered Sara Yi's work on Instagram so I was like you know, as a lot of us as trainers do is just go on to the feeds and I've started seeing like this really great work being done in shelter. I'm like who is this person? This is really fantastic and seeing the dogs change and you do such a great job of showcasing sort of like the before and after. You know, without pushing those ethical boundaries of like, let me just get this footage for, for you know, media sake or like TV kind of training, because it's actually very unavoidable in many cases in the shelter environments much different than working with dogs in a private kind of scenario.
Speaker 1:So that's why I discovered your work and I'm so excited to have met you and be able to make this connection and help to spread the message that you're sharing with the world. So I'd love to kind of jump right in and find out, like, what got you into this? What's your background into getting into the shelter side of things?
Speaker 2:Yes, so I have been working in the pet care industry for over 20 years now, and this is a variety of settings, anywhere from pet stores to doggy daycares. I went to RVT school as well, and I started volunteering at shelters when I was 16 years old and started working at them in my late twenties. I was still continuing my education, so I actually earned my bachelor's. In my thirties I went to UC Davis. I majored in wildlife, fish and conservation biology, where my emphasis was canine studies, so this includes anything from evolution, genetics, behavior, physiology anything that had to do with canine studies that I could apply to the pet care world I found fascinating. I actually applied to my following shelter when I was in my Ochem class, so I should have been paying attention, but I was looking for jobs. It was my last course before graduating and I saw an opening at Napa County animal shelter and they are a smaller county shelter. They are designated no kill and first, walking in there, my first impression was all of these dogs that had been sitting on the isolation row for months and there was no plan for them. Staff could not handle these dogs. They were not ready for adoption and rescues weren't pulling them, but because they were a no kill shelter, they were very limited on the types of dogs that were eligible for euthanasia, so per county ordinance and independent behaviorists had to come onto the shelter and evaluate the dog for free. The trainer must also be working under a 501c3. So there were all of these stipulations that made it very difficult for this particular shelter to make any of decisions regarding these dogs and they were wasting away. I mean, that first week of walking in just being surrounded by that chaos and that sound and that suffering made such an impact on my life and my everyday, the way I approached every day and what I felt when I woke up going to work, and I could never get these dogs out of my mind.
Speaker 2:And unfortunately, in this shelter, much like many shelters throughout the United States, there was no dedicated behavior department. These staff members are doing everything from the care, the cleaning, adoptions, transport, they're working with fosters, they're doing offsite events and maybe, if you're lucky, you can get five dogs out that day. So these dogs are spending upwards of 24 hours a day inside of their kennel. There was no enrichment program. Volunteers didn't have access to these dogs either. They were in a locked ward and I remember approaching management and asking can I put it upon myself to make these dogs my project dogs? And she said yes. So I had already been training with private clients and doing some behavior work in the previous shelters, but never to this degree. And pairing myself with these dogs, working with them over the weeks and getting them to the point where they were either adoptable or eligible to rescue was my main goal, and this required working through my breaks, working through my lunches, staying after, and this overtime is encountered. The county didn't have a lot of overtime for their staff members, so I was not alone in this. This tends to be the trend in this industry is, in order to get the work that we need to get done, we have to work through our lunches and breaks and work free overtime. I knew I could do a lot more forming my own business and branching out to work with multiple shelters, because everyone is struggling right now.
Speaker 2:What we predicted was going to happen with COVID is happening. So, according to the statistics, so there were not more adoptions in 2020. So everyone thinks there was this massive rush of adoptions during that period, but the data really isn't showing that. So most shelters actually closed for adoptions. Most weren't offering that service to the public. They were still taking in strays, but for the most part we weren't taking in owner surrenders. We weren't conducting adoptions. So one blessing in disguise for that period of time was we were close to the public. We were able to work one-on-one with these dogs. We were able to maintain our intake numbers a little bit better, so we were able to cope with the workload that we had with the resources that we already had.
Speaker 2:Now that we're coming out of this, we are seeing shelters have 250-plus wait lists, so people waiting to surrender their dogs. We are getting strays in every single day these dogs are. Now we're seeing seven to 12-month puppies that are extremely under socialized. They have zero resilience. They have not been exposed to enough positive environments or interactions with people or other animals. So we are in an absolute crisis right now and I feel we started this organization at the perfect time, so there is such a need for what we do.
Speaker 2:The other side of my business is my partner. He's Nate Valenti. He's an animal control officer who I actually met at the shelter at Napa County Animal Shelter, and we started working with these challenging dogs together and it has been such a blessing in my life. I have found my purpose doing this type of work. Unfortunately, it takes a massive emotional and physical toll. There's never a finish line. So no matter how much effort we put into one particular dog, there's always going to be 100 more that need our help.
Speaker 2:So, although we started first with working with a lot of private clients and then shifting to shelter and rescue work, that is our main focus right now. So, especially these past two years, we are no longer taking private clients. We are focusing specifically with shelters. We work with five shelters in the area and many rescue organizations throughout the United States. So our biggest focus now is behavior evaluations for these behaviorally challenged or euthanasia listed dogs. We started training volunteers and staff on everything from animal handling, defensive handling, behavior modification techniques specific to that industry, post adoption behavior support. We started enrichment programs and behavior based foster programs for shelters and we're helping them develop these very, very crucial components to the overall picture of helping out these dogs. But I never want to look back and think is there anything else I could have done? And I absolutely know I'm doing the right thing. This is my purpose in life and I couldn't be more grateful to have this opportunity to work with essentially the throwaway dogs of our communities.
Speaker 1:That's impressive, all of that you've done and such a selfless act to really help so many dogs that need it, and now that you're able to spread the information further, it's fantastic. So I think some of the listeners probably think what does a day in the life look like for you? So let's describe a day you're actually going into the shelter environment and working with these dogs. Are you like just working with tons and tons of really aggressive dogs? Or like, what does it look like on a typical day for you? Kind of walk us through that like you know a good day for you, perhaps.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is a great question. So right now our biggest focus is evaluations. So the thing many shelters are struggling with the most is they identify behaviors that are concerning to them and they will call me in and I have shifts that I work, so specific days where I go into these shelters and I evaluate dogs, that list can be upwards of 25 dogs for a single day. So some shelters have a new euthanasia list every single day. People need to understand this. Some shelters don't. Some shelters are lucky and when a dog comes along that they feel is will be a challenge to place, then they start thinking about that pathway. Hey, if there's no good prognosis for this dog, then we start considering euthanasia. That is not the case right now. So with the amount of dogs we are getting in, our lists are 25 or more dogs for a single day. So I've got my protective gear. I go in, I start pulling out these dogs and working with them. I write my behavioral evaluations as I'm out in the yard with these dogs and the whole process is very holistic. So this is the issue I've seen in with behavioral evaluations in the past. They've been very stringent. We are placing these dogs in very unnatural positions and situations and environments and testing them For things that most dogs, even pet dogs, would go over threshold. And for me I have developed very holistic approach where I will first work cage side. You have to do a lot of body reading, so what is the dog telling me? My biggest quote is sit with the dogs, they will talk to you. So understanding that what we are seeing is not necessarily what's going on internally.
Speaker 2:Getting these dogs out, working them in a yard first, so very, very important as well. A lot of people rush the handling and rush these steps in the intake rooms or the vet rooms. The dogs are already super stressed out. We got to get them out of the kennel, so a lot of people who are maybe the public is looking in. It may look like play, it may look like I'm just hanging out with the dog in the yard while they're sniffing around and eliminating and decompressing. But so much of that gives us that information that we're looking for and I will bring the dog into real life room. We'll hang out in there on the couches. There's music, playing, there's toys, there's food around. So rather than tethering a dog to the wall and putting a bowl down and reaching into it with a fake hand.
Speaker 2:How reliable will that information be? So for me, it's getting the dog out of the kennel how the safety is my biggest concern. So if they're able to be handled safely, the prognosis is much better. I will take these dogs out one by one, write my reports. I will often work with staff or volunteers. Right now we're doing a lot of mentorship programs, so the shelters are partnering one staff member volunteer with me so they shadow me throughout this process. That is so important. There is only one of me.
Speaker 2:My goal has always been to teach people to do what I do. I would love if every staff member regardless if your front desk or care staff had some training background had some knowledge in reading canine body language, so we can make a bigger impact. I love teaching group classes as well, so this was something we started a couple years ago, and things like teaching basic obedience or life skills can increase the prognosis for adoption dramatically. So we often pair handlers and dogs in small groups of four or five. We'll have place beds throughout a big yard and we'll work on obedience, engagement, focus, work, leash handling skills all of these things that will translate into the adoptive home as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you bring up so many important points as well. In my travels around the country and around the world is that one of the common themes or factors is the lack of staffing, the lack of time, the lack of people being able to do the things you're doing. And so, you know, we were just kind of mentioning the different assessments that are out there, but a lot of this is just a lack of time, and so what you're doing is actually very important Teaching volunteers how to do much of what you're doing but I think when the outside world looks in and we hear about behavioral euthanasia decisions or, you know, dogs being, you know, housed in these more difficult situations, what we don't focus on is the human side of sometimes. We're like so focused on the dogs, of course, which is important, obviously, but we forget that there's humans involved, taking care of these dogs day in and day out, and the lack of staffing, the lack of resources, is not talked about enough.
Speaker 1:It's a thank, it really is a thankless job in so many of the places I visited, you know, shout out to all of the shelter staff around the world that are doing this daily. So it's kind of along those lines. You know where do you find the strength to keep doing this? You know, because it's it is a thankless job and a lot of people don't all they focus on those decisions they hear about. Oh, that person's bad because they decided on behavioral euthanasia. I could have taken that dog and I could have fixed that dog, or why don't they reach out to me and they don't see the other side? So where do you find the strength in all of this to keep going and doing what you're doing?
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for bringing this up, because I see this trend often on social media, where people will post a dog that needs to be networked, that's on a euthanasia list, and many of the comments will read things like oh my God, they're murderers. How can they sleep at night? These people don't care, they're heartless, they're, they're monsters. These shelter staff are painted as monsters and of course, there are bad eggs in every industry. Of course there are people who may appear to be indifferent, but sometimes that indifference is a coping mechanism. And unless you've been in that position where you have hundreds of dogs to take care of and there were holidays where I was the only staff member working Christmas Day while everyone else was at home with their families, and here I am trying to feed 200 dogs and 100 cats and make sure everyone gets even five minutes out of their kennel and that all the poop is scooped up, that burden is unspeakable. I mean, for me, what keeps me going is, as much as I would want it to be, the success stories, and I hang on to that positivity. It is the dogs that I've lost, and actually I skipped over this story when you asked me how I got into this. But whiskey foxtrot was. It was a dog that most definitely everything that is fueling this business and what I do in our mission.
Speaker 2:So he was a dog that I was paired with about halfway through my stint at Napa County Animal Shelter. A two year old male German Shepherd intact. No staff could handle him. So I worked with him over several months and he ended up being okay with me. But we were never able to generalize his behaviors, his trust and this relationship with anyone else, and that is because of the lack of time. I absolutely took all my extra time and put it into this dog, but I can't realistically expect others to do that. They have their own focuses, they have their own jobs and ultimately the decision was made from another trainer to euthanize him and because he trusted me and he felt safe with me, I volunteered to deliver that injection myself and it was the hardest thing that I've ever had to do and a part of me left with him that day. It died and it's that feeling of never wanting another dog to meet that fate, if I am able to intervene and do something about it, that pushes me every single day and I'm glad that you brought this up because, even speaking to other people.
Speaker 2:These past two months have been insanely challenging. We have put so much effort. There was a dog soul that I posted, so we put so much time and effort into getting him out of the shelter. They gave me 24 hours. They said you have 24 hours to get this dog out and I had already built a relationship with him. We were already going outside he was fantastic.
Speaker 2:But again in that kennel all we see is barking and lunging and it's a manifestation of that stress and I am the only one that was able to see past that. That's what I want to do is to teach people. What you see is not the full story. We have to understand that these dogs are placed in the absolute worst position possible and we are judging them based on that. Who are we to judge them? If we as humans were placed in that position and that expectation was held steady, so many of us would fail. And it's such a tricky line because we also have to recognize the position that we're in. We cannot save every dog. There's no place for many of these dogs. Rescues are full, everyone is full and the direction that we're going in that's not letting up anytime soon.
Speaker 2:So self care has been a challenge for me this entire time, being mindful that I cannot fill someone else's cup if mine isn't full, so definitely taking that time off. I've been very much better about that this past year, so making sure we get some time off to recharge, but I can never see myself doing anything else. I hope there is not a need for what we do in the future. That is my goal. I hope I have to find a new passion and I hit a midlife crisis later on. Where what do I do with my life? But in the meantime, there, all I see is these, these dogs sitting in. What is the future? They're sitting in what is essentially a prison, to no fault of their own, and they are getting killed for it.
Speaker 2:So I need everyone to understand who's listening. I hear you and I see you and I validate what you're feeling, because so many of us feel like we're drowning, and this is a community effort. We need to understand this is not a shelter problem. We keep looking at shelters as if they're the ones that are giving up their dogs and being put in that position themselves, but it's not the case. So that is the fuel for me is every single dog that I've lost along the way, knowing that this help will always be needed. But that, for me, pushes me to teach everyone else. So, having the opportunity to anyone who will listen, you can do what I do. It's not magic. Yes, it took a lot of knowledge and skill set and building that over the years and becoming comfortable, and that also included bites and maulings.
Speaker 2:I am not immune to that. I've had very, very bad attacks that have required stitches. It's scary and people need to understand this is such a complex situation. It's not just keep the dogs alive and figure out what to do with them. That human side, the fear I mean. I went back to work. I had such a severe injury that needed stitches so I had my left breast torn open, my nipple torn open by a 92 pound dog. If my boyfriend hadn't been there to intervene, who knows what has happened. And that is a position so many of these shelter staff are in. We're not working with private clients.
Speaker 2:These dogs aren't muzzled and leashed. We don't have a behavior history on them. All we see is again this this barking and lunging dog is. Sometimes they're friendly, but they snap. You know, every single living thing has its limit and we are surrounded by such suffering and day by day, we see the physical and mental deterioration of these dogs, and we have to support each other.
Speaker 2:In the end, it all comes back to that. When emotions run high and we're working every single person is working this hard to save these dogs we tend to use each other as scapegoats and we pit ourselves against one another when we all want the same thing. First of all, recognizing that, yes, we are all suffering in this, but we're suffering together and we can support each other, I think is a big change that we need to see in this industry, especially the rescue and shelter worlds. That's the only way we're going to win this fight or even get our heads above water is working together. So, doing what I can and playing my part in this is teaching people the skills and the knowledge that I've gained over the years. We can learn from my mistakes. They don't have to do it, but their hearts and their minds need to be open.
Speaker 1:I so, so appreciate you sharing all these points because, Again, it's a message that isn't understood or even heard. I mean, you really have to be in those trenches, so to speak, and to really understand and see that side of it the things that you're seeing, the decisions you have to make, the dogs that you're seeing, the dogs that you make connections with, and you're the only person that that dog is connected to, and you're the one that has to say goodbye, that's tough.
Speaker 2:It's hard Making that sentence recommend for behavioral euthanasia. Every time I write that I feel like I have to throw up. I take that with me when I drive home and that's every week. I condemn dogs to die every single week. People on my Instagram, especially. I'm very honest and open about sharing our victories and sharing not our failures, but when we don't get the outcome that we want, because it is the very real reality that we're facing and people need to know that.
Speaker 1:Your Instagram page. I recommend and we'll share it in the show notes, of course, but I do recommend because it is very uplifting and I'm very, very just seeing the success stories, as you mentioned, really does support a lot of people out there and the work they're doing. I'm feeling this resiliency from you. So there's not a lot of people like you when I talk about this and I actually talked about it in a couple other episodes. There's just something about people the people that are working day in and day out with aggression cases or in the horrific experiences that you've had that you just keep going.
Speaker 1:There's this sort of calmness, in a way I was talking about with Patricia McConnel. We're kind of talking about resiliency as well. There's just something there and I don't know what it is and there's somewhere to be discovered, this secret sauce of being able to keep doing this. A lot of us can do it once, or maybe can stomach it once, but you're there doing it over and over and over. Or the people that are working aggression cases and seeing clients breaking down in front of them, crying over and over and over because of these difficult decisions what has shaped you to be so resilient, even in the face of making these difficult decisions in the trenches. I mean you're in it. I mean you're as deep into it as you can get in this world of working with dogs. What has helped you become so resilient and so strong in the work that you do?
Speaker 2:Yes, I like to say that so much of my life has been shaped from situations of coming out of dark rooms. Even now, many of the videos that you'll see in my Instagram is literally me sitting in a dark room on the floor, a dirty kennel floor, when there's a dog bearing teeth on the other side of a fence and I'm just sitting there with them. We were chatting before and I explained that I am not doing this work in spite of everything that's happened to me, but because of what's happened to me. We're working on writing a book and sharing my experiences and how they tie into the work that I do, but I see so much of myself in these dogs, even the dogs with complicated bite histories. We have had shelter dogs that have had 37 level four bites. It's yes, yes, so he's been adopted. Yay, snoopy. It always comes back to what you see is not what you get.
Speaker 2:I had a very tumultuous childhood. My father was very physically abusive, leading up to breaking a glass face on my head. He beat my sister very, very badly when we were kids as well. I was scared to live at home. I was scared of my home, and that is not something that I found I could relate to my peers, to Most of my friends I felt weren't dealing with this level of domestic violence in their home, and for me, my biggest escape was college. So leaving this extremely chaotic and unsafe environment at home and finally getting out to college, and the last night of winter break I was roofied and raped by someone who had been my friend, I thought, for several years, and that night changed everything for me. I attempted suicide 30 days later so that is how my parents found out was the hospital bill and I had to start my life over and I had to go back home. So again I was put in this environment where I felt unsafe. And now I was trying to heal in an unsafe environment. And that's exactly what I see in these talks. Right, we are rehabilitating them, we are working with them in a prison, in an environment where they don't feel safe.
Speaker 2:And you know what, when I wasn't feeling well, I lashed out. I had so much misplaced anger on the people trying to help me and there were days where I couldn't get out of bed and I couldn't eat. I was diagnosed with mental illness, bipolar disorder and PTSD. So now I had violence in the home, I had this rape I was dealing with and now mental illness. I dropped out of school. I couldn't hold jobs, I mean, my whole life was turned upside down, but you know what the only constant was was these dogs.
Speaker 2:So, no matter what changed, no matter if I didn't feel like getting up for my sake, there was something else that needed me, and it is such a spiritual experience Working with them in the darkness and there's no one else but you and this dog, and they are mirror of what I used to be and they are my redemption. I'd be so lost without the work that I do, because it is my salvation too, and my chance to start over and to live this life where I am in control and I'm able to do everything that I've wanted to do, because one person believed in me and one person believes in them. That's exactly what happened to me. I remember my friend Adrian would come to my room. I hadn't showered or eaten in three days. He'd say let's go for a walk, and all it took was one 15 minute walk to make a huge change in my outlook and how I felt and how the rest of the week would go, knowing that I had the power to do that for these dogs?
Speaker 2:When no one else believes in them, when everyone else says they're a lost cause, just put them down. There are enough problems we're dealing with in society. There is no time or room for these dogs in our lives and in our communities. But we all deserve at least a chance, whether you're a human or these dogs. And again, so many of them were just fine in their homes and they end up in this situation for circumstances completely out of their control. So it's almost like a religion to me.
Speaker 2:Going to work. I've never been so excited, and that includes knowing that the outcome for some of the dogs that I'm going to work with today, this day, is not going to be what I want To have this purpose. It's such a blessing for me. That's the biggest reason why I could never see myself doing anything else is because of that relationship that I've built and some people may call it trauma bonding right, but it's so much bigger than that. This is so much bigger than me. But to be able to relate to them on such through that darkness and I am comfortable with that darkness and perhaps that's why I was attracted to this type of work but just being able to give them the chance that I was given and to see that same transformation and metamorphosis that I have experienced over and over in my life is incredible, to me incredible.
Speaker 1:Well, I first want to thank you for making yourself vulnerable and sharing your story. Survival, I mean. It's so powerful and so moving At the same time. It just I think there's many listeners that probably can relate and if you're listening to this episode now we're recording it in February here, but this episode is somewhere in June you'll probably be hearing it and it's right after Patricia McConnell's very powerful episode and how trauma can affect us in so many different ways and how so many powerful outcomes can occur from our past traumas and the way you've turned it into your story survival and positivity and helping these dogs as well as now. I'm sure many listeners are listening and hearing your story, so thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So I'd like to kind of continue along this. You know, in the work that you're doing because you know you mentioned, you've got these difficult decisions. If you have, you see these dogs and you personally relate to them so deeply because of your past experiences. But then you have these decisions, you need to make the behavioral euthanasia decisions and you have to battle against. You know this, this no kill sort of theme and that's pervasive in some of our culture not all of our culture, but I think it's a term that's used a lot in the shelter world.
Speaker 1:So how do you navigate that conversation? You know this whole. You know the difference between no kill and what you have to do in those difficult decisions especially, especially, with what you've gone through.
Speaker 2:Thank you. And that is something that people really need to understand as well is maybe people have the idea that I go in and evaluate these dogs and I only recommend behavioral euthanasia for dogs that display a clear level of aggression to the point where they are unhandleable. So from the shelter standpoint, their main mission is public safety. So a lot of people have this belief that shelters exist for pet adoptions. That is, a secondary service for municipal shelters. So government shelters were created and were founded for the purpose of keeping strays off the streets, maintaining public safety. So it first started with livestock. So it allowed farmers or ranchers to reclaim their livestock for money. There was very little financial incentive for dogs or cats, so those were generally cold in the beginning. Starting in the 60s 70s, we really started pushing the idea that, hey, the family dog can be adopted from your local pound or your local animal shelter and since then adoption has been a cornerstone for American families. That is kind of the past. So now what we're seeing with such a high influx of intakes and the amount of dogs that we are currently working with in shelters, we have to take so many factors into consideration. So it's not just the blatantly aggressive dogs quote unquote that get euthanized. So this is the main issue with the no kill initiative is many are largely underfunded or unfunded completely.
Speaker 2:Now shelters are obligated to hold on to animals and are granted, generally speaking, a 10% euthanasia limit, so they have to have a 90% or above live release rate. That sounds great on paper, right? We are getting more dogs out. These shelters aren't allowed to euthanize at the rate they were doing before. But what is happening with these dogs, Many of these dogs again? We have 200 other friendly dogs that aren't getting adopted. We used to see lines out the doors for puppies. Now puppies are growing up in shelters. So what do we do with this other section of the population where they're not ready for adoption yet, but they're not maybe clear candidates for euthanasia? So I hope you enjoyed it and girls��.
Speaker 2:We take so many factors into consideration when talking about the prognosis or the pathway for a specific animal. What is the demographic of adopters that come into the shelters? Most of them are families, most of them are senior citizens or more inexperienced handlers or owners that have never had anything beyond or seen anything beyond separation, anxiety or maybe some leash reactivity, Whereas many of the dogs that are being surrendered have bite histories. So there's a history of resource guarding in their home dog. On dog aggression Many of these dogs have documented kills on livestock or other dogs. What if the dog bit a child multiple times in the household? What if I'm sorry?
Speaker 1:Barking dogs are okay on the podcast, not too worried.
Speaker 2:I've got two right now, both by cases. So this guy, yeah, he was actually pulled 15 minutes before his euthanasia date, the one that we have now, yes, so close call.
Speaker 1:He's allowed to bark.
Speaker 2:Yes, he is, he's actually a great example of this because he had a bite incident in the shelter. He's very mouthy, so the handler at that point in time had a little bit thinner skin so although he, from what we gathered, he displayed the same mouth pressure when mouthing other people, but no bites broke the skin. This bite broke the skin. They're automatically placed on the euthanasia list, rescue only with 72 hours to get them out. So those are the limitations that we are working with on these dogs.
Speaker 2:Most people don't understand. We don't have infinite time, resources. Staffing these shelters are out of room. We're doubling up on kennels. There's a huge turnover for staff. Many are still continuing to get sick with COVID, the flu and everything else that's going around this season. They're still trying to take vacations because they absolutely deserve it, just like anyone else working in any industry.
Speaker 2:So we're left with these tough decisions. We cannot save every single dog as much as we would like to. So, understanding where we draw that line and that line may move throughout the week depending on where that shelter is at and the workload that they currently experience or the staffing that they currently have, and rather than painting the shelter staff or people like me who evaluate dogs as evil for doing what we have to do. Why don't we start looking at why these dogs are in that position in the first place? What can we do on the intake side of it or what can we do to support our communities so these dogs don't end up in shelters in the first place?
Speaker 2:And that has been a huge focus and a huge shift in the shelter industry is community based services, especially behavioral and medical, to support the challenges these owners are facing. And that, in turn, has a trickle effect there's fewer dogs in the shelters. The shelters don't have to ask for more room or more money because there's fewer dogs for them to care for. Now, the dogs that are there maybe do have to be there, maybe they are a threat to public safety, but the shelters are now able to focus on these harder, more challenging dogs, call in specialists to help assist them, working with them, and now we have a better grasp and ability to cope with everything that's been going on.
Speaker 2:So it's not black and white. People really need to understand and, from the human side of it, again, we're bonding with these dogs. There are essentially our dogs, before they go home to you, before they get pulled to a shelter. Every single staff member I've talked to has their own whiskey foxtrot. They have their own story, just like me, where they have personally worked with, bonded with and gotten some progress with the dog, but in the end the decision was made to euthanize them because of all these other factors that are outside of our control. That doesn't make us bad people. That just means that we have to find other solutions and come to grasp with the reality of the industry right now.
Speaker 1:So much wisdom there and so much insight that if you're listening to this episode right now and you really want to help the shelter staff out there, share this episode, because just that little segment right there packs so much information that needs to get out there into the world for people to hear. So, really, I thank you for sharing all of that and condensing it so nicely too into this perfect sound by itself. Thank you.
Speaker 2:I'm getting better at becoming concise.
Speaker 1:yes, You're like a good spokesperson too, so I am going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors and when we come back we're going to talk a little bit more on the behavior side of things too. Stay tuned, we'll be back in just a moment. Hey friends, don't forget to join me for the fourth annual aggression and dogs conference, either in person or online from Chicago Illinois, happening from September 29 through October 1, 2023. This year's lineup includes many of the amazing guests you've heard on the podcast, including Sue Sternberg, dr Tim Lewis, dr Christine Calder, sintor Bangau, sarah Stremming, sean Will and Masa Nishimuta, and many more. Head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and veterinary behavior cases to working with aggression in shelter environments to intra-household dog-dog aggression. We'll also have special guest MCs, taylor Barkoni and Gio Alcade, who are sure to bring their positive and uplifting vibe to the conference and, as usual, you'll find a wonderful, kind, caring and supportive community at the conference, both in person and online. I also want to take a moment to thank one of our wonderful sponsors this year Pets for Vets.
Speaker 1:Did you know that approximately one million shelter animals are euthanized in the US every year. At the same time, many of our country's veterans are experiencing post-traumatic stress disorder, traumatic brain injury, anxiety and or depression. Pets for Vets founder and executive director, clarissa Black, created a solution for these problems by rescuing and training animals for veterans. Pets for Vets has a unique program model that customizes each match to create what is called a super bond. Each animal is selected and trained specifically for each veteran, based on matching personality and temperament profiles. Additionally, clarissa has developed an assessment protocol called ACE or ACE, that allows other animals, the choice and agency to participate in the Pets for Vets program, based on their response to multiple stimuli. Pets for Vets has a positive reinforcement mentality at its core for animals, veterans and trainers. In addition to helping veterans and rescue animals, clarissa has created a generous opportunity for positive reinforcement trainers to join her organizations. Trainers are able to participate from anywhere in the US while receiving stipends, professional development opportunities and maintaining a flexible schedule. For more information, please visit PetsforVetscom.
Speaker 1:That's PetsforVetscom, alright, welcome back. We're here with Sadie Salazar and we are talking about a lot in this episode. It's been a really, really deep and insightful episode, so I thank you again. I would love to switch gears a little bit. Since we are an aggression podcast, check out Sadie's work on Instagram because you can see some of the techniques I'd love to jump into that.
Speaker 1:You go in, you've got a dog that's barking and lunging at you at the kennel door A lot of what we might typically see. But I really want to touch upon the differences because it's a whole different world. We see things like when you hear something like a slip lead and in some circles you're like, oh my gosh, slip lead, you're terrible. Don't ever touch those slip leads In this shelter environment. It's just a common tool for moving a dog from point A to point B. Yes, they can be abused just like anything else, but it's the last thing on somebody that's running 50 dogs in and out a day to be thinking, oh yeah, now I've got to put on a harness on every single dog just because somebody says so. In terms of the aggression stuff, your approach to the kennel is much different. Dogs are already going to be over-threshold, so we don't really think about threshold in those moments. But what are some of your tried and true things that you do? Counter-conditioning? Is there certain techniques you use to approach kennels? How do you make friends with these dogs.
Speaker 2:First and foremost is being mindful of the environment that they're in. So again, we are placing these dogs in what is perhaps one of the most stressful, acute, stressful situations they can be in. But they're experiencing that chronically. So we have high cortisol levels throughout the day. These dogs aren't getting enough sleep at all, even at night. So we do see periods where, usually around lunchtime, most of the dogs tend to calm down and again later on in the afternoon or evening.
Speaker 2:I do use a slip lead. Thank you for bringing up a slip lead. So, just so everyone knows, I love harnesses and long lines. That being said, one of the shelters that I work with has no collars on their dogs, so they don't have any collars to begin with. Slip leads are absolutely, I feel, the safest and quickest way to transport dogs quickly, get them out of their kennel. So one nice thing I like doing is making a nice big loop. But before we even get to that point, I'm a huge, huge, huge proponent.
Speaker 2:My number one trick to this is just classical counter conditioning and desensitization. So there are a lot of great approaches to working aggression cases. So we have cat and bat, which I personally love using with private clients. But keeping these limitations in mind. We don't often have time to pull multiple handlers and multiple dogs or work with teams, so we are working triggers using those approaches. We need multiple people Again. These staff members have hundreds of other dogs to care for. They barely get their cleaning done on time. They can't even break all these dogs. So having this expectation that staff members are going to have even 20 minutes to work with one dog is out the window right now.
Speaker 1:So for me, when you say, when you say break these dogs, meaning giving them a break just because we have some that might take that the wrong way.
Speaker 2:Sorry, yes, thank you for that I mean break them from their kennels. Yes, so that is. My main goal is to get the dog out of their kennel into a yard, that nice open space. They don't feel less pressured. But again, what is the situation like when we're first approaching these dogs, or me, for instance, when I'm working in aggression case? They are trapped, they have no way to get out and they know it. So they are going to display a much higher intensity in terms of behavioral responses than we would see in many everyday interactions because we're pushing them to the very edge. So, being very mindful that, again, this may be a response and often is a response that is rooted in fear, distress, anxiety and approaching it that way, rather than I need to get this dog to comply and let him touch me, I call it the compliance lens. So we tend to rely a lot on obedience to, I think as a whole in the dog training industry to try to coax these changes in our dogs. But I'm all about creating a new conditioned emotional response. So, rather than trying to force the dog to get them to do what I want to do, I want the dog to feel better about the situation. So in turn, we get a different behavioral response for something that the staff have to do every single day, like pass by a kennel or feed them food. So, honestly, the biggest trick to this all is just feeding through the kennel. So nice, classical counter conditioning. What we're doing is pairing the sight of a person. So that's a very common trigger in shelter dogs. Even if they're friendly, they will often start becoming again that stress, that distress, that anxiety gets to them. Every time a person passes by. They'll react. So they start barking, lunging, burying teeth, so they may even start air snapping. So, creating a new positive association and this can be very simple we just hang little treat, either pails or dishes, outside of each kennel. I always recommend that every staff member carry a treat pouch with them as well. Food is such a powerful tool. There is so much that is outside of our control in this industry. One way we can easily work with these dogs as we're going on our day to day care is just feeding them. Every time we pass by, these dogs look at me and think oh my God, the hot dog lady is coming. Oh my God, there's a chicken nugget lady. That's what I want to be seen as.
Speaker 2:Once we get to that point we can start generalizing it with other people. If one person in particular makes that, forms that bond and builds that trust Once we get one person, it's just a matter of repetition at that point. Generally speaking, I have one test. I call it the door latch test. So I'll go over this in the conference as well. It is probably my very simple number one test or temperature check that will kind of I don't want to say set in stone determine the prognosis of a dog. But how they react when I open that latch and open the door is going to tell us a lot about how comfortable they're going to be moving forward. So so many staff members will just see that aggression. Again, it's defensive aggression, but they'll still see that aggression. If I open the door and the dog runs away, that's going to be a much safer case for most handlers that's volunteers and staff to work with than a dog that is trying to burst through, that is biting at that kennel door. So speaking realistically, again, keeping that liability of the shelters in mind, if most staff members or all of them are unable to safely even leash a dog, handle them or touch them in any way, the prognosis is generally going to be very poor, but I think most people have been hesitant to even open the door or try that. But again, what we see is not always what we get. So many dogs will run, they'll run away, they'll run to the back of the kennel and understanding, yes, it is fear based, it is stress based. I can work with this. It's going to take a little bit longer, but the liability is much less than, again, one that is displaying offensive aggression. It's.
Speaker 2:I also understand the the safety part of it. So I know that was a big part of our conversation before was empowering these staff and volunteers to not only equip themselves with tools that will keep them safe, but knowing how to use them. So the more we empower and teach these handlers, these staff and volunteers are more comfortable and prepared they will be to deal with these cases. But after you've done it over and over again, you start to pick up on these patterns and I am now at the point where I feel very comfortable hey, this is going to take a long time, this is safe, this isn't, and I will still. Okay, I'm going to be completely honest to you. I will push the envelope myself. I don't know if it's an ego thing, but sometimes I will come up with a dog, will I'll say you know, this probably isn't safe, I won't have other staff work with them, but I'll see how far I can get with that particular dog, and sometimes it ends in a bite. It's very tricky line, but I think that empowerment is such a huge part of it too, and just teaching them, and this is why the mentoring and shadowing is so important.
Speaker 2:This is a huge issue. With evaluations, my notes are going to be a lot different than someone else's who work with that dog a different day. So, just like us, our tolerances and our thresholds fluctuate throughout the day, depending on the day, depending on the hour, depending on the week, how much sleep we got and my hungry. I'm going to be way less tolerable of certain things. Then, if I got a good night's sleep, I'm feeling well fed.
Speaker 2:So, being mindful of that and just approaching it in a manner where we can make the most out of that time and having that person with me so I can explain, this is what I'm seeing right. This is why I'm approaching this dog this particular way. This is why I'm using this techniques, and a big question is always how do you know that it's safe to go in that kennel, and that is my biggest test is that door latch test and many dogs will turn and flee at that point and that's when you can observe and say this is going to be a little bit safer. It's going to take a little longer, but it's not that blatant. They have a picture in their heads and so many of these dogs are just labeled aggressive. That label doesn't give us any information, right?
Speaker 1:Right, and I think subconsciously there you're actually just doing a lot of that. First because you want to protect the volunteers, because we know volunteers are hard to come by, in the shelter environment at least to keep them there for a long time, right we?
Speaker 2:have three at one shelter. That's it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that's that's to the general theme of traveling around again, meeting lots of shelter staff is. One of the hardest aspects is getting volunteers, training them and then keeping them, because they often they don't stick around for long, or it's it's because it's tough work. It really is Okay. So let's dive into. You. Get the dog out of the kennel, you start working with them. You're out in the yard. Do you have anything that you know that you found works the best in most of your cases? So you're building a relationship with them. You don't put any hard training pressure. You're not like sit down, stay in all those.
Speaker 2:No, it's so boring. Yeah, so most of it is allowing the dog to decompress and approach when they feel ready. So I guess it is kind of like the back approach, where I'm giving the dog enough agency to choose when and how to interact with me by utilizing open space, so as big of a yard as possible. This will often mean I will always leave the drag leash on as well, so very important for my safety. I don't know how this dog is going to react. There's no owner history on it. I've never worked with it before. So for safety's sake I do leave a drag leash on, but for the first 15, 20 minutes I am sitting down, no hands on this dog. I'm not trying to interact with them at all. Again, I'm mindful that they have likely been in their kennel for over a week, especially if it's a dog I evaluate for aggressive behavior that they're seeing at the shelter. The dog probably hasn't been out of their kennel in weeks to months. So a big part of my approach is allowing the dog to urinate, eliminate, sniff around, decompress and take in that environment, even though it's outside and it may be peaceful to meet. It's a whole new place for this dog. So many of them you can see they're rapid scanning. They're still a little bit on edge. So one of the mistakes I see a lot of staff is they move in too quickly with that handling. So vet staff as well. We have had so many instances recently where dogs have been great with the care staff. But we've seen issues with the vet staff and the approach is many care staff will leash the dog up, take them out into the yard and leave them alone for 20 minutes, whereas vet staff have 20 other dogs to see within that hour. So they leash the dog up, take them into the medical room or intake room and then start their exam right away. So we get that difference in observations and interactions. And now we have competing reports for this dog and we're like, hey, what do we do with them? So that prognosis is helped so much by just allowing that dog to do whatever they need to do for the first 15, 20 minutes.
Speaker 2:And when I start handling back in the day, I mean we would hold a dog by the leash and just start massaging down its back, like again, this dog doesn't know me, I built no relationship with it. Who am I? So how can I have this expectation that he's going to be okay with it. So, again, allowing that agency for that dog to approach. When they approach me, I'll often just hold my hands out to my side. I'm not reaching towards them to pet, I'll just hold an open palm out to see how they interact with my palm.
Speaker 2:Temperature and consent checks are so important, not only at this stage, which sets the tone for the relationships, the ongoing relationships, this dog will have with other staff members. If I mess this up and move too fast, that will stick around, so that dog will remember that. So it's definitely my job to go as slowly as possible to again granting these dogs as much consent as I can, while maintaining my safety but also keeping that time limit in mind. That's always just looming over our heads and I'm going to ask you a question.
Speaker 1:You probably get a lot, but you've now handled thousands of dogs, I'm sure. So if you had a average number of times you need to greet a dog where they're actually you feel like this dog really likes me now, or you get to the point of like this dog is made some great changes, or you feel is adoptable, or whatever the issues. Let's say it's a dog to human aggression case and or it's displaying behaviors that you're saying go away kind of behavior. Yes, On average, like. So if you take like all the dogs you work with that have that issue, what's the average number of times you need to meet with them for four there?
Speaker 2:Two to three, it can be as little as one, especially if we're looking at a case with defensive aggression and it's mainly rooted in fear. I like to have a little bit longer sections with these dogs but once I get them out of that kennel that first time, usually they don't reset a second time. If it's a little bit more offensive, then the sessions take a little bit longer. But that is one thing I've been really trying to demonstrate to any handler working with shelter dogs specifically is, generally speaking, it does not take a long time and I feel a big reason for that is because I'm so patient and slow in the beginning. I'm setting this tone where I'm allowing the dog to pick and choose again how and how often they want to interact with me, setting that tone for future relationships. Again, we're conditioning, we're counter conditioning, so it's not magic. I don't think it takes very, very long. But I'm also cognizant that this is just one dog. So if we multiply that by, say, a shelter has a hundred challenging dogs, it's going to be very difficult for us to reach that milestone. But for a specific dog so some have taken several months and others I'd say most fall between one and three sessions and they often range from 20 minutes to 45. So it's really not much longer than that. I don't have much more time than that if I want to get through my list, and that also. I want to be cognizant that because there is a time limit, I will sometimes I will definitely not sometimes have to tweak how fast we approach something.
Speaker 2:So one particular dog, magnolia, that I've been working with, I had her out of the, so the shelter kind of gave me a deadline with her. She's been great with me. But because that deadline was given now I had to speed up the generalization process, which can take a long time in a shelter, given that they only have a few minutes a day to interact with this dog. So what I did was I took her out. She was great with me on leash. We started doing trail walks with other staff members. We started with one, then moved to two no more than two at a time. She has done great with these people and it's only taking about five to 10 minutes of their day.
Speaker 2:So, realistically speaking, I can approach management, I can start the relationship building process with this dog, but we can generalize it within five to 10 minutes in one day and by the end of the session because we start working outside of the kennel she's eating out of their hands. I mean she's just blossoming beautifully. I might have not approached that method if we had a little bit more time. So I do recommend most staff start building that relationship cage side before they even reach in an attempt to take a dog like this out. If time is a factor and these shelters have given me a deadline, I'll find a way to speed it up, but again keeping ethics in mind. So I'm constantly reading her, engaging how she's doing. I don't want to push her over what she feels comfortable with, because that will be counterproductive, but making sure that we're moving at a pace that not only everyone feels comfortable with but that will increase her prognosis and make the prospect of her leaving alive much more viable.
Speaker 1:So shout out to Magnolia and the work you're doing. That's so great and everything you're saying. It really echoes with you. Know, the same thing I've seen in my clients. You know that one to three sessions is typically the average for the dog to say, hey, this guy's actually pretty cool, he's a hot dog guy or whatever you know. But it's also more so than that. I mean it's. It is, yes, counter conditioning, but it's building that relationship, that trust the dog can feel safe, because safety is really the most important thing, right for the dog to feel safe. And when we create that by what we do and how we move and how we interact with the dog, it just it really is where the magic happens. So you're going to be talking also speaking of the aggression in dogs conference, so I'd love to hear a little bit more about what you're going to be presenting on there.
Speaker 2:Yes, so my Instagram. That's probably our biggest social media channel, really my only social media channel right now, but my videos are set up in a way where I have clips that usually before and afters of me working with these dogs, with you know, some nice music in the background, and my goal for this conference is to not have that music in the background, but to explain exactly what I'm doing, step by step, with these case studies man, not only as one of them. And what I really like about her in particular is because I have had so many realistic limitations placed on me. So when you first approached me about speaking, I'm definitely using cases that I've worked with in the past, but I wanted to start picking new case studies so it could be even more relevant with what we're dealing with in this time and place. And when the shelter message me like, hey, what are we going to do with her, I got so stressed out. My first thought was, oh, this is going out the window. Now I can't use this case. But of course I can. I absolutely should, because she, specifically, is a great example of how the fate of many of these dogs even if we start making progress, that limit is always looming behind us. So, again, her outcome isn't guaranteed, even though we've had tremendous progress with this particular dog.
Speaker 2:I wanted to show not only what I do and why I do what I do with them, so what I'm seeing, explaining the behaviors, the differences between the offensive and the defensive aggression. I also want to give cases where I fail the dog. So I want to demonstrate this is, in particular, why this dog was recommended for behavioral euthanasia, so people can see the complexity of it, how it's not just, oh, it bit someone in the household, it's getting put down so very much. We try to take as much into context, but illustrating the difficulties and how we've had to tweak things with not only so much as out of our control, but so much is unknown. Right, so many of these behaviors aren't translated into the home and vice versa. So that's one of the reasons why shelters have moved away from food guarding tests is because we have found through studies that is, it is not a reliable indicator of behavior in the home. So, definitely all encompassing, I will focus on case studies specifically of dogs that are deemed aggressive, put on the euthanasia list, and I'm given a deadline. So very much with that time in mind.
Speaker 2:With staffing limitations, resource limitations, space limitations, what do we do to get this dog out alive? And again, my focus is techniques and applications that can be easily translated into the everyday care tasks of these shelters, keeping in mind everything that they're facing. And that's the biggest difference I've seen between training with or working with private client dogs versus the shelter dogs. It's there's other people making a call. We don't have them going into a home where we can manage the environment and the triggers and the exposure to these triggers and again give this feeling of safety that is very much lacking in the shelter that we don't have control over.
Speaker 2:So it's all about increasing the prognosis of these euthanasia listed dogs with very practical, relatively easy techniques. So I want to always teach people in a way where everyone can learn. So there, of course, are techniques that we can apply that require more skill and more knowledge, and we are not working with that demographic of people. So how can we again empower these caretakers to be able to improve the livelihoods of these dogs in the long run and their communities as well? It's a community service. We have to remember that first and foremost. So that will be my case. Yes, yeah, all about the people and the dogs and working together.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so looking forward to that talk. It sounds like you're going to pack in so much useful information. And you mentioned your Instagram as well, so can you tell people where to find that and anything else you're working on?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. We are at Wolf Mother K9. That's letter K, number nine altogether, and we do mostly so we showcase a lot of our shelter work there and please feel free to reach out at any point during direct message. You can leave us a comment. We also have our website, wwwwolfmotherk9.com.
Speaker 2:We are working on a YouTube channel, so that is something we want to have up and coming to again, maybe break down a little bit better of what we're doing. I love the way I set up my videos, but I don't do a lot of explaining within the actual videos themselves. So that is going to be a big focus of ours. And we're also creating videos for shelters to be playing in their lobbies. So if people have dogs that they're surrendering at that point in time, hey, maybe we can give, if not information that will help them, maybe provide resources. So another avenue for them to hopefully get the help they need. So we prevent the dogs from showing up in the shelters in the first place. Another thing we're working on we have a lot, so it's an app, it's a QR code that will help showcase videos and photos of dogs outside of their kennels. That is so huge. So most of the public when they enter a shelter, all they see is a very, very stressed out dog and what is essentially a prison cell. So they move on. They feel that that dog isn't necessarily the best fit for their lifestyle or what they're looking at. No one wants a barking, lunging dog, but if we were able to see that dog in the play yard or in a foster home or in the office or we're big proponents of office dogs as well, so using shelter dogs, giving them a little break to just hang out in the office with the staff there, would increase again the adoptability and prognosis of so many of these dogs. So we've got a lot in the works. Right now we're creating online master programs for shelters to use wherever they may be at.
Speaker 2:Again, a lot of what we do can be shown best in person, but there are absolutely ways we can utilize videos and other means to explain again what we're doing and why we're doing it. Because our biggest goal is to empower every single person that wants to learn to be able to improve the lives of shelter dogs wherever they may be at. In their own communities, in their own backyards, there are dogs that are dying that need the help. So thankfully, there are a lot of people that are interested in learning, and I'm learning along the way, so continue education has to be a goal of everyone as well.
Speaker 2:So, again, like these resource guarding tests, if new information becomes available to us, we need to be open to it. So we are also working on incorporating everything that we stay on top of these new studies so we can share that information with everyone else too. So our biggest focus will absolutely be education for shelter staff and volunteers through the use of different websites and apps and hopefully empower as many people as possible to help us in this mission, because it is. It does take a village and it's a huge effort. But definitely back to your question did this whole loop around is? Instagram is definitely our go to, so check us out and what we do and how we're changing the lives of these dogs every single day.
Speaker 1:And, as usual, I'll make sure I link to all of that in the show notes. Sada, thank you so much for all you're doing and for coming on the show. I really had a great conversation with you, so thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me, Michael. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:I truly want to send my deep appreciation to Sada for her dedication to shelter dogs and for sharing her journey with us. Her story is so inspirational and she's such an incredible gift to our community. And don't forget, Sada will be presenting at the aggression and dogs conference this year. You can head on over to aggressivedogcom for more information about the conference and to register. We have an incredible lineup of speakers this year, including Sue Sternberg, Dr Christina Spalding, E Reed Bloom, Dr Wailani Sung, Dr Christine Calder, Dr Tim Luce and so many more. I hope to see you there. Thanks again for listening and stay well, my friends.