The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
The Human Side of Dog Aggression: Insights from Dr. Karen London
Ever wrestled with the guilt and shame that can come with a dog exhibiting aggression? We've got you covered in our insightful conversation with Dr. Karen London, a renowned dog behavior specialist, who unveils the human element intricately entwined with canine aggression. We discuss strategies for navigating the tricky terrain of difficult conversations resulting from dog aggression and the importance of extending kindness to oneself during the process.
Finally, we uncover the often overlooked aspect of dog aggression - the emotional toll it takes on the humans involved. Dr. London shares her wisdom on maintaining emotional balance, applying self-care, and establishing robust support networks when dealing with aggression cases.
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ABOUT KAREN:
Karen B. London, PhD is a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist, Certified Professional Dog Trainer, and an award-winning author of six books about dog training and behavior. She blogs for TheWildest.com, writes the Arizona Daily Sun’s animal column, and is an Adjunct Professor in the Department of Biological Sciences at Northern Arizona University.
Instagram: @Karen.London.Dog.Behavior
"Treat Everyone Like a Dog: How a Dog Trainer's World View Can Improve Your Life"
https://smile.amazon.com/Treat-Everyone-Like-Dog-Trainers/dp/1952960002/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
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https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/bundles/the-aggression-in-dogs-master-course-and-expert-webinar-bundle-2024
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This season is really shaping up to be a lot about the human side of aggression cases, and my special guest for this episode, the wonderful Karen London, shares her insights from years of working with the behavior, both from the human and animal sides. We take a deep dive into many of the difficult conversations that can occur in aggression cases and some strategies on how to navigate them. Karen is a PhD, a certified applied animal behaviorist, certified professional dog trainer and an award-winning author of six books about dog training and behavior. She blogs for thewildestcom, writes the Arizona Daily Suns animal column and is an adjunct professor in the Department of Biological Sciences at Northern Arizona University. She is also the author of Treat Everyone Like a Dog How a Dog Trainer's World View Can Improve Your Life, which we chat about more in the show. And if you are enjoying the bitey end of the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressivedogcom, where there are a variety of resources to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming Aggression in Dogs conference happening from September 29 through October 1, 2023 in Chicago, illinois, with both in-person and online options. You can learn more about the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to help and work with dogs with aggression issues.
Speaker 1:Hey everyone, welcome to the bitey end of the dog. I have a super special guest this week, dr Karen London, who is a personal hero of mine, and I'm going to tell you guys why. I started training probably just before the feisty fightout book came out with Ewan Trisha McConnell And I was still using very punitive methods choke chains, e-colors and those kind of things. One of my mentors introduced me to that book, as well as the Culture Clash and Don't Shoot the Dog and a few other books. At first I was kind of this is a little strange, but as I started reading these things, it helped me in my crossover journey. So talk about ripples. I mean, if your book was around, if Gene Dolls' book was around at the time, who knows what would have happened? And still, using those methods and maybe talking about on a podcast, that's the thing to do. So thank you so much for the work that you've done and the impression you've made on me.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much. First of all, thank you so much for having me on your podcast. It's really nice to be here And I'm so delighted to know that some work I've done made life better for you and your dogs. I mean, that's really what the goal is to improve the relationship between people and their dogs and the training, And I think I always congratulate every crossover trainer. I was always a positive trainer and it's easy when that's what you're taught. But to be doing other things and then change, that's a big thing. To recognize the kindness, the value and the power of the different ways. I'm impressed, So that's great Thanks for letting me know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, thank you for your contributions, and I was thinking too we're going to have Trisha McGonnell on the podcast as well. But you guys have worked very closely together for many years. What an amazing place that must have been to experience that, like if I was a baby trainer and just kind of stepping in working with you and Trish in all of that great company. It's sort of like watching somebody inventing something new or working in a particular revolutionary aspect of a particular industry. It must have been fascinating. So I'm sure you guys have a lot of stories you could tell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i do. I mean I started working with Trisha in well, volunteering in her classes in 1997. And I worked for her full time as her she was training me to be an aggression specialist so she could take time off to write the other end of the leash, and that was in 1999. I actually got married in Portland, oregon, went on my honeymoon in Alaska, went back to New Hampshire in Vermont where my husband and I were living And my husband went back to his field work in Alabama and I flew to Wisconsin after my honeymoon and lived four years separate from my husband in order to intern or Patricia McGonnell. So I recognize the opportunity. There are a lot of great trainers that she worked with and we all. Yeah, it was a really amazing time for me and really formative in my life and I'm so grateful for it And I'm glad you're going to get to talk to her. That's wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm excited for it. So I'd love to jump right into one of your books Treat Everyone Like a Dog. I think the theme of this year's episodes have been really focusing on the human element, which I love, because I think it's not talked about enough, or at least especially in aggression space. right? So working with aggression in dogs, i always say it's mostly about the humans. Yes, we have to, of course, work with the dogs, but so many of the details is focusing on the human element of it. So I'd love to hear kind of what got you motivated to write that book, and then we'll dive into some of the details there.
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, thank you for asking me to talk about it. I love that it's fitting in with your theme this year of like the human side of things, and the way I think of the book Treat Everyone Like a Dog is that dog trainers know all these amazing things. We know how to influence behavior, we know how to teach new behavior, we know how to maybe stop behavior that we don't want, that we consider undesirable. I mean just a whole suite of things, of all the ways that we influence the behavior of the dogs and we train them and manage the situation and think of the progression and all of that. And I think that if everybody knew what dog trainers knew and applied it to people, i think that it would be a happier, kinder world with better educated or better trained, depending on how you think of it a people. And the way I got started thinking about it actually was when my kids were about two and three years old.
Speaker 2:I was really frustrated one morning, as anyone who's not slept and has young kids can appreciate And my kids were supposed to put their shoes in a bin, so that then when we all in the morning, they were always there to find and we go to look and neither of them had their shoes in the bin. And I'm like why aren't your shoes in the bin? I'm so frustrated. I realize it seems like a small thing, but just when you're tired and stressed and just like, oh my gosh, i just want you to put them in the bin. And my kids got kind of wide eyed and looked at me and they looked a little fearful and I thought, oh my gosh, that's terrible. The last thing I want to do is frighten my own children.
Speaker 2:And I remember thinking, even through the sleep filled, frustrated haze, that when I'm working with dogs and they don't do what I'm wanting them to do, i never think, why aren't you doing this? I'm like, okay, how can we set this up for success? What training steps do we need? What have we missed? What's the barrier to this? And such a loving and kind way to teach and train?
Speaker 2:And I remember thinking like a bolt of lightning why am I not being at least as kind to my own children as I am to the dogs I work with on a daily basis? And that was when the idea for the book started. But I didn't really actually start working on it for many years, but I was always writing down notes Oh, this is how I'm thinking like a dog trainer, oh, this is a dog training application in my life. And then I started working on the book, rather slowly, and then during COVID I just really had time because I wasn't seeing clients for a little bit, and really worked on it. But it really came with the idea that I know how to solve this problem of not getting behavior I want. I've solved it with dogs for years, like every dog trainer on the planet. Why am I not applying it to people, especially my own kids?
Speaker 1:Yeah, everything you're saying resonates with me so much right now because I just kind of was thinking I was going through that how much my parenting. I have two boys one is 24 now and the other one is going to be 17 soon And just how much I've shifted how I parent and the way I approach raising my kids, and how much has actually changed with my first child versus the second one because of the positive reinforcement strategies I've learned in dog training. So I don't know if there's a term crossover parent and not that I was doing things to my first child like we I was using impunitive methods, but it's amazing how much it can shift your perceptions and everything else in your life once you start learning about the techniques that we use with the dogs and positive reinforcement based training, right.
Speaker 2:I completely agree and I would say it's like even bigger than just positive reinforcement, although of course that's the base. But you know, i mean I think about all the ways that I influence things with my kids, like, for example, when we were teaching our kids to drive. I always thought about how you know, when you're teaching a stay and you're like, okay, we're, either we're either working on duration or we're working on distance or working on distraction. When we were teaching our kids to drive, we were working on things like, okay, you know, really work on steering really clearly, or starting really smoothly, or stopping really smoothly, or focusing on. You know, when you put the turn signal on, you can't like if someone says, all right, get in the car, all right, you're going to lift the clutch, you're going to put in the gas, you're going to turn, you're going to break, you're going to it's like it's too much all at once. So the idea of you're just working on one thing at a time, like today, we're working on accelerating smoothly, that's the goal, you know, and I think that made it a lot easier and also it wasn't so overwhelming for the kids, or even things like not poisoning the cue.
Speaker 2:I found that when there was a time when my younger son was little and I would say to him I'd be like Evan, do you have your, your backpack together? Like Evan, do you need to wait? Did you already take a bath this morning, evan? did you turn in that permission slip and I heat, i heat here his name and kind of freeze up. And sometimes you're like Oh, evan, you have a birthday party today, or, evan, you know you get to do this after school.
Speaker 2:And I realized Evan, which was the cue for him to give me his attention, was essentially poisoned because he didn't know whether it was going to be a stressful thing or not. So I sort of didn't say his name if it was something stressful after that. So that's not positive reinforcement per se, but it's a lesson from dog training. I mean they're just, it's just endless what I mean. I'm so proud to be in the community of dog trainers. I feel like it's endless. What we know and what we can do in terms of influencing behavior and solving problems and applications are important and useful And I think everybody would benefit from knowing what we know.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And yeah, there's just so. There's so many ways we can incorporate all of the science that we're learning and all of the skills that we're learning in in the dogs and our conversations with people. So I kind of want to dive into that a little bit more than the from the aggression side of things. So working aggression cases So either if you're pet guardian working with a trainer or you're a trainer working with pet guardians listening into the episode, we can kind of look at both sides.
Speaker 1:But we can argue that you know, aggression cases are very emotional and often I always say you know, it really does focus on the people. In those cases It's kind of different than, in some ways, than a dog that's maybe jumping up on the counter and they don't want them grabbing food off the counter. It's not usually, doesn't usually have the same emotional undertones as it does in an aggression case. So what are some of your big takeaways that you've kind of learned over the last couple of decades working with people in aggression cases? And then we can kind of dive into some of the specifics. But if you had a few big takeaways, what would they be?
Speaker 2:I would say the number one thing that I think about with aggression cases that I always want to share and I wish everyone knew, is that I feel like people have so much shame and so much guilt when they have an aggressive dog And I wish we could just throw that all away. I meet so many people who are maybe not my clients, just people I meet randomly, socially, and they're always like isn't it really just like the people? It's like their mistakes And it's like, no, it's not. Most of the people I've met, you know, it's their 16th dog. Like an elderly couple I've met just a few weeks ago, it was their 16th dog. They've had 15 dogs that I mean, you know, some of them probably jumped up or got in the trash or ran after cars or things that are obviously you want to work on, but this was the first aggressive dog they'd had. It's like if people have this idea that they, you know, quote ruined this one, why didn't they ruin the first 15? And this dog had whatever issues it had, and they were, you know, they felt so ashamed about it and so bad. And that's one of the first things that I want to always address with them is that I don't think this is your fault, i mean I just don't.
Speaker 2:And yes, there are sometimes things that people do that can make it worse than there are things they could do to make it better. But those same things with a different dog. I mean there are people that raise a dog just with no skill whatsoever And the dog turns out just fine. You know it happens. I mean I sometimes meet people and it's like, oh yeah, i'm such a good trainer, i've done this dog. And then they get their next dog and it's like, ah, they weren't such a good trainer, that was an easy dog. So I really want people to throw away that shame and guilt.
Speaker 2:And something I always say is I had an aggressive dog years ago and I mean I'm a professional and I'm an expert And yes, i worked with him And yes, he got better, but he was never lassie and he was never going to be. You know, when I went would go out and he was the dog. I learned a lot of the things that you know we put into our feisty Fido book. His name was Bugsy and I worked on a lot of things and very reactive and aggressive to other dogs out on leash And I mean, i know what it's like to go out for a walk in the neighborhood and worry that people are thinking there goes that lady with that dog, like I know what that feels like And I wish that people didn't have such guilt and shame.
Speaker 2:And I feel like people just really feel like their dogs, and their children too, are such a reflection of who they are And I would say yes, but not 100%, and so that's the biggest thing is, i think we need more kindness to people about. It's not like they created some monster, aggressive dog And you know that wasn't what happened. They have a dog and they're doing the best they can.
Speaker 1:So and I love that response I was going to kind of ask you, like, what is your typical response when somebody says you know it's all my fault, right, i feel guilty about this, or is it something I'm doing? They have those questions And I love how you interject your personal story and use empathy to relate to them. I sometimes I kind of usually state you know, knowing, goes out to get a dog and then wants them to be aggressive, or does things purposely in most cases purposely to make them aggressive. So I don't see you doing that here. I can sometimes see a little relief when I make that statement And sometimes I'll interject personal stories as well as the stories of my clients. So do you have any other elevator pitches you like to give to clients if they're saying oh, you know, is it something I'm doing? Karen, i think it's just me, maybe I'm just too nervous or maybe the dog's sensing my fearfulness out there. What do you say in something like that?
Speaker 2:Well, i often say that if their dog is sensing their fearfulness or their anxiety, what I like to say is like it is possible that some of the ways that you're acting and feeling could be exacerbating the situation in that particular context, but what that tells me is that your dog and you have a good emotional connection, that your relationship matters, that you're connected.
Speaker 2:So this is a good thing. It's a good thing that your dog is responding to how you're feeling and how you're acting. And what you're doing, and what I'm going to help you do, is send the messages to your dog. That will make it easier for both of you. But we're starting out in a great place because you have that connection, so I'm glad for that. So, even though I know you're feeling bad that you might be conveying this information to your dog, the good news is your dog is paying attention to you And with that we can do all kinds of things. So I really focus on the connection, because usually when people feel like they're influencing their dog, they are, but that's a good thing. It's just we want to change the message.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that so much because you're emphasizing the connection And when sometimes they feel like they have no connection or they're losing the connection because of the dog's behavior. But I love how you put that positivity into it. I'm going to use that one for sure.
Speaker 2:Oh good, I'm so glad. Years ago I gave a talk called spills and phrases about just useful things that I say, And it was one of my favorite talks because almost everyone was like, ah, I'm going to use that.
Speaker 1:We have to revive that talk for sure. I would love to give a spills and phrases talk again.
Speaker 2:It's so useful And because obviously every client is different and I always am saying things a little differently, but there are some things that you know get covered regularly, of course.
Speaker 1:Oh, i love that We're going to talk about. Having a talk then, great.
Speaker 1:After the show Yes, So let's get into some of the other types of specifics we might encounter in aggression cases.
Speaker 1:You know, one of them being the prognosis, so the overall potential outcome for a case.
Speaker 1:And this is something I find is very relevant today's conversations that we might see in social media and trainers kind of saying you know I could take this dog and fix it or you know you shouldn't euthanize the dog. So all these kind of blanket statements that are really potentially harmful because we don't know all the specifics in the case. You know, for instance, i use 18 different factors I look at when I'm assessing what's the potential outcome for a particular dog is, and I talk to the clients about that so they can understand their own personal case. And I of course don't cover all of those, go through all 18 things but I kind of pick out what's most important to them so they can help understand. You know I can help them understand, from an objective point of view, what's what's going on, what the potential could be and what's the potential outcome for a particular dog, and I think that's really important And I think that's really important, and I think that's really important, and I think that's really important. So how do you help them navigate that conversation?
Speaker 2:Well, i always talk about, like, basically the possible things that they can do. So one of the things they can do is nothing, but nobody comes to me and then like, does nothing, i mean that doesn't make any sense. And the other thing is they can do some combination of treating and managing it And we can talk about what that might look like for them. And something I find so interesting with that is I find that I talk with a lot of other trainers and behaviors and they often say that trying to tell people to prevent and manage is like a bit of a hard sell. But I often find that people are really relieved. I often find that if I say, could you have one of you, you or your spouse in the back room with the dog, when you know the carpool ride comes to get your son, and just have them not interact, and a lot of people are really relieved about that. They feel like they have to do it. Like I have to take my dog to the dog park for socialization, even though he bites when he's there. It's like you know, don't take him there, he'd be happy going on a snuffari, you know. So I find that prevention and management people are really receptive to and then the training and working to make things better.
Speaker 2:Another option is to to re-home the dog, which doesn't come up that often, but sometimes years and years ago I had a woman who was a recent widow and her dog used to hunt with the dog. or sorry, her husband used to hunt with the dog And then when he died the dog was really under exercise and anyway they ended up placing the dog with a family member who hunted and it was the best possible thing. And then euthanasia is also an option. Euthanasia just comes up for me a couple of times a year, to be honest. But I think when people see the full frame like these are the four options. there really are no other ones. Like you do nothing, you try to make the situation better, you have the dog out of the house or euthanize the dog. Those are the only options.
Speaker 2:So then I think people can sort of get their mind around that And I always tell people like I can advise you, but I it's your decision, it's completely up to you. And I sometimes advise that people have their dog at someone else's house or with a dog sitter or kennel. have them have a couple of days away from their dog to think. I think sometimes they can't think because they're so stressed about the situation with the dog. So sometimes I break. I've even occasionally watched someone's dog. you know. I'll say I can take the dog for a couple of days while you think about that. That's usually with friends, not with my regular clients, to be honest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And so if they're still kind of not able to come to a decision and they are like, oh yeah, you know I can, i can understand what the options are, what do you think I should do? Or what do you sometimes help them, steer them in a particular direction?
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, sometimes, but what I often like to do is say, like, what I'd like for us to do is decide in a timeframe that we can work on these things that I've discussed and then assess to see how much the dog has improved. So you know, if we're meeting regularly, can we really say that in two months from now or six months from now or whatever the case is, let's see where we're at. And so sometimes I think people have an easier time saying, okay, i can prioritize this and really focus on this for X amount of time and then decide. Because I think what gives people trouble is this sort of endless wafting like kind of I hope it's going to be okay. I'm afraid it's not That hope and fear zone and it sort of seems endless. But if we can say, okay, june 30th, let's see where we're at and let's postpone any decision till then, let's see where we're at.
Speaker 2:And I think people can often work with a finite time. I mean I'm not comfortable telling people what to do. I come really close sometimes if there's very serious aggression in a child involved and I will say I am very concerned for your child's safety. I am not comfortable having this child and this dog together. But I don't ever say that means you can't keep the dog. You know, because obviously people don't always know how serious things are, and if I say to someone I am worried about your child's safety, people usually take that really seriously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, i'm definitely in alignment with you there. I'm very, very careful with any kind of child's directed aggression cases, especially if it's in the home. Definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2:Another thing I sometimes do that I think helps people, because sometimes I know we both see all kinds of aggression cases. Whatever aggression case people come to me they're often quite distraught. You know they're at the end of their rapidly fraying rope and they've seen other trainers and other behaviors and they've talked to, you know, people that don't even really know anything about behavior particularly. I mean not saying that some of them don't know about behavior but they're not trained in behavior like vets or groomers or dog walkers. They might not necessarily have any behavior training But some cases they come to me and it seems extremely serious. But in the scope of cases that I see it it's not that serious And I don't mean that I don't take it seriously with them. But you know if they have a dog that the only time it's ever shown aggressive and it's a nip, you know, like no damage.
Speaker 2:If they have a marrow bone at a kid's birthday party or something it's like, okay, we don't want that happening but that's the only situation we can avoid that. I'll often say like I understand how distressing this is to you and it's very serious and we want to work on it. We want to make sure that never happens again, but on the spectrum of things that I see where it's like this is like very mild and this is very, very serious. We're way over here and it doesn't mean we're not going to work on it, but it is manageable. You know, you know, like, don't have your dog around with any kind of treasure or a kid's birthday party, that, or you know I mean that's and then work on resource guarding, of course, another context, but I feel like I was trivializing that And what I'm saying is, if it's just a one off in a very intense situation, that's you know, you've had the dog for six years is the only time they've shown aggressive And I think we can work with that.
Speaker 1:And so, speaking of management, what do you do with clients that are or how do you have that conversation to? you know, express the importance of management, when a client's kind of still exposing the dog to certain environments, that we're seeing the aggressive behavior or the dog stressed and they're maybe not recognizing that, do you have sort of an approach to that, like you know, the dog park example, or for a dog that really is demonstrating fear in the dog park or stress signals in the dog park, do you kind of have some way of navigating that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i have sort of two things that I always talk about in that context. One of them is really kind of a big thing, even though I can say it quickly, and that's really helping them with body language and reading the dog And most people will say something like you know, he looked a little funky or I didn't like the way he was being. And when you really get down to it, a lot of people are very good observers of their dog. You know they see the ears go flat back. You know they see the tooth display, they watch the tension in the shoulders, but they just say like you look funky, i wasn't comfortable. It's very vague terms. So I try to break down those specifics and really, you know, even maybe and some people would disagree with this and I'm willing to take all criticism of it but I will do things that might stress their dog a tiny bit, to show them like, look how, if I stand up and lean, how your dog tongue flicks, or look how, if I talk in a deeper voice, your dog backs up, or you know, show them how you can read that. So they, because I want them and I do this in the context of I want you to be an advocate for your dog. If your dog is not comfortable, you're the one that has the power to get your dog out of that situation. So the better you can understand the dog, the more you can act on his or her behalf. So I talk about that.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing with prevention and management, i talk a lot about in terms of set your dog up for success. So what I say is we want to keep your dog out of the situations that he or she can't handle right now, so that we can set, you know, them up for success. And while we're doing that, we're trying to expand the number of situations that your dog can handle. So eventually we want your dog to be able to handle all these situations, but for now we're going to protect him from the ones that are too much. So I talk a lot about sort of advocating for the dog in both those ways. And you know, but it's certainly true I mean saying like, oh, i do this and a lot of clients are really receptive, but they're definitely some they're like well, yeah, but like, but we're having a dinner party Wednesday, you know, or I mean you know or like, well, but he loves, i love going and hanging out with my friends at the dog park and you know it's like, well, go, but don't bring your dog. You know, i mean, it's not always so well received.
Speaker 2:And one of the things I often do is I ask people like what part of this can you do? because I always say my job is not to come with a plan that would work if they did it. My job is to come with a plan that will work because they will do it. So I'll ask them like what, what part of this can you do? Or I'll say I feel like you're hesitating about this, is there something about this that's bothering you? And they'll often say well, you know, i only like to, because I always I'll say, like, walk your dog at a different time of day. They're like, well, i only you know that I only have this amount of time. It's like, look, what about on the weekends? Can you do it on the weekends and just try to find a way to make it work?
Speaker 2:But it is does involve a lot of back and forth and figuring out what their barriers are, which sometimes is funny. I realize I'm talking for a long time about this, but I remember one time I had these clients and they needed stuffed Kongs to help their dog in certain situations And the couple was fighting about who was going to stuff the Kongs. The barrier was getting the Kongs stuffed, which to me was like I have a very non antagonistic relationship with my husband And if one of us didn't want to stuff Kongs, the other one just would. You know, it's not, this is not a problem. But I asked them what the issue was like. We just don't like stuffing Kongs. So they just bought the Kong like spray liver ones and did it And it's like okay, so we have to buy this expensive product, which is a good product, but expensive, go ahead. So you never know where the barriers are. So you often have to ask about them. But I really couldn't believe that stuffing the Kong was this like source of great tension with this couple. But everybody's different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's an interesting one, But it's actually I think I've seen that before where the toys, just the work of it, is sometimes a barrier. You know, I want to jump back. I love that you were talking about advocacy, And since we have some pet guardians actually quite a few pet guardians that listen to this show, what about shifting toward their corner So they have a trainer that might be asking them to do things that are uncomfortable for them or maybe using techniques that they may not agree with? How do you recommend pet guardians talk to their trainer about advocating for their dog?
Speaker 2:Well, you know what I always say and I love it when people like I work with a lot of clients who are working with different trainers, different people, you know, like a chiropractor and a veterinary behaviorist, and I always say the more people on the team the better. But what I tell people is look, you know that old joke. The only thing that two trainers will ever disagree with is that the third one's doing something crazy. You know that kind of thing. I always say we all have different views. I say I'm telling you what I think would be good And obviously I think it's the best thing. That's why I'm telling you. But other people are going to have different ideas And it's up to you to pick and choose what you want.
Speaker 2:Nobody knows your dog or your relationship with your dog better than you do. So you do what is comfortable for you And like, if I suggest something that you don't want to do for some reason, like, please tell me and I'll adjust. I always feel like this is sort of why I'm always saying treat everyone like a dog. If I offer a dog hamburger and they don't like it, i don't insist. That hamburger is a good dog treat And they eat it. You know I give them chicken. You know I find something that works and they like it and it's palatable, and I want people to do the same with that. And I just say like, if you feel like it's not comfortable for you and your dog, then don't do it.
Speaker 2:I know that sounds so simple, but most people, if you say like, even like about me, don't do what I suggest. If you don't feel comfortable with it. You know, pick what you want. I think that gives people a comfort level to tell, you know, other people. Now something I'll say though, because I did have a client actually recently who was long distance from me, so I was working with a local trainer as well, but consulting with me And you know I sort of take that idea of you know reinforce the behavior that you like. So, talking with the dog trainer and saying, like I love this tact, this part of it, i really, really like I don't want to get into specifics, but I like this tact, like let's do that like and be really energetic and positive and receptive to that. But it takes a little finesse And it I feel like nobody should be working with a trainer that's trying to coerce them into something that they're not comfortable with, but it is tricky.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's kind of brings up the sort of the milligram experiment where you know your the professional tells you what to do And because they're professional or in sort of that position of authority in the consultant client relationship and that's the wrong, probably, choice of word, but it's, you know they're going to listen to the professional because that person they hired.
Speaker 1:So sometimes we have to remember to advocate for the dogs and question that, and so what I usually do, you know, in the beginning of the consult is to mention that just what you were exactly saying, that we have to. you know, if there's any kind of issue or you have any questions, please let me know. I'll be happy to discuss them with you. We can certainly navigate that conversation together and decide what's best for your dog together, and that, i think, also creates a sense of safety for them to be able to speak about things. So I always try to do that my first console, at least. in the last few years I've definitely been focusing on that more, because I think sometimes people are sort of nervous or afraid of saying anything like I don't know about that to the professional that's supposed to be helping them right.
Speaker 2:Right, it is tricky And I'm very aware of that, especially as I was saying, people already come in. Many people come in feeling judged and ashamed and, you know, sort of vulnerable in that way. That's why I often try to, you know, mention that I had a dog that had serious issues, some aggression issues, so that people understand it happens. And it's so interesting if years ago, before that was so many webinars, I used to give you know seminars with you know. It's like a gym full of you know 200 people or something.
Speaker 2:And you ask how many people have ever had aggressive dog and almost everybody raises their hand. Now, of course, that's not a random sample of people that are there to hear me talk about stuff, but I just feel like if people just don't feel blamed, it makes it easier for them to speak up. So that's an important piece of it, and I think I could definitely do a better job of earlier on, in my first consult with them, saying like you know, feel free to share. But I tend to handle it on the fly as it comes, especially if I notice them being like you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Yeah. And so another component of what you were saying was about the participation factor with clients And what we do as trainers and consultants, probably one of the top five issues that my students asked me. You know, Mike, what do you do with clients that aren't participating in the recommendations you're giving to them? So let's jump down to that rabbit hole. But actually, let me take a little pause to break for a word from our sponsors and we'll come right back to talk about that participation aspect.
Speaker 1:Hey, friends, if you are interested in hearing more about applicable and immediate steps you can use with your own dog or in your cases, I have a subscription series called Help for Dogs with Aggression, which is an additional format to this podcast where I walk you through a variety of aggression cases. Some of the topics already in the episode library that you would receive immediate access to include territorial aggression, emotions in aggression, dog to dog, resource guarding, dogs that bite when being pet or handled, aggression on leash and so much more. These are solo shows where I take you step by step on how to work with each of these types of aggression. You'll find a little subscribe button on Apple Podcasts where the bitey end of the dog is listed or a link in the show notes to subscribe using Supercast. Your support of the show is very much appreciated And don't forget to join me for the fourth annual Aggression and Dogs Conference, either in person or online from Chicago, Illinois, from September 29th through October 1st 2023.
Speaker 1:This year's lineup includes many of the amazing guests you might have heard on the podcast, including Sue Sternberg, Dr Tim Lewis, Dr Christine Calder, Sintor Bangal, Sarah Stremming, Sean Will and Masa Nishimura and many more. Head on over to aggressivedogcom and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and veterinary behavior cases to working with aggression in shelter environments to intra-housel dog-dog aggression. We'll also have special guest MCs, Taylor Bracconi and Gio Alcade, who are sure to bring their positive and uplifting vibe to the conference And, as usual, you'll find a wonderful, kind, caring and supportive community at the conference, both in person and online, And I hope to see you there. All right, we're back here with Karen London. We're going to talk about participation in aggression cases and what a lot of trainers struggle with when a client is not kind of following through on the recommendations we're giving them. So let's kind of just talk broadly about that first. Maybe we can get into specifics. So what are your thoughts there with helping clients and helping trainers also navigate that?
Speaker 2:One thing I like to do is ask them you know why, but not in a like why aren't you doing this? But just like what's the issue here? So, for example, i had a dog that had some serious aggression many years ago. We had a whole bunch of different things that we were working on, and one of them was having the man run with him more. Now, i'm not saying exercise is a cure all for aggression, but it's helpful for so many things quality of life And he wasn't running with the dog And he and his wife were having quite a bit of conflict. This is a man that ran like 80 miles a week And she's like why can't you run with him? And he said to me and I understand this because I'm a runner he said the running is my time, it's my time And I feel that way.
Speaker 2:Like if I go out running with the dog, that I'm running and the dog gets to come along. If I go for a walk, it's for the dog and they can sniff and do what they want, But the run that's for me and the dog is coming along, and I know that sounds selfish, but I got to take care of me so I can take care of them And that's the way I do it. This man didn't want to go running with the dog because that was his time And what we worked out was that he would take the dog on his warm up, so he'd warm up for like three to five miles, then drop the dog off at home and then go do his real run. So that was a compromise. So the barrier was that the dog was intruding on the one thing. He had a number of children, busy home life, a busy work life. The only time he had that was his special time was the run. So that was the issue. So we figured out why. So I asked that. And the other thing I'll say and I learned this from my dentist because I hate flossing My husband flosses like twice a day. Every time I see him flossing I'm like, oh, i feel guilty, i'm not doing it, but I've just, you know, i mean I've moved on from someone that flosses only when I've eaten corn on the cob to like flossing like five times a week, which isn't great, but I'm a work in progress. And I remember my dentist was like you know, i'd like you to floss more. And my dental had dentist and I'm like yeah, never. And she's like you should floss every day. And I'm like I know, and she's like how many times a week can you commit to flossing? And I'm like three, like every other day, but maybe a screw up. And she's like okay, i want you to do that. So I started flossing three times a day and worked up to four and five. And so she asked me how much can you do? And I was like that is so smart, like I always think of this as my philosophy, like asking them like how much can you do? So if I'm asking people like how many times could you go out on a walk and work on? you know watch and U-turns and you know emergency stays, and sometimes people will say like I can do it one walk a week, it's like great, let's do that. So I asked them what they can commit to, and to me this is so.
Speaker 2:I'm trained as an ethologist. You know, studying animal behavior, animals in their natural environment and understanding ethology of dogs has helped me be a better dog trainer and behaviorist. But then I originally worked with wasps. I've worked with a number of different animals and thinking in terms of people, if people say they will do something, they're more likely to. That's why there was a really interesting study when people said with a restaurant they had their cancellation rate go down because they used to say please call us if you have to cancel your reservation.
Speaker 2:And people hardly ever did. But if they said, will you call us if you need to cancel? And once people have said yes, then they're, they are more likely to do it. So, making use of the ethology of people, if they commit to something, they'll do it. So you say how many times a week or how much time, or you know how many of these exercises can you work on And if people commit to it, they're more likely to. And I think some of it's that they're not told what to do. There are part of the contract.
Speaker 1:Oh, i love that. That's so interesting. So so you get them to sort of restate what you asked them to do, do you like kind of write it down as you they're saying it to like? all right, so you're going to do it three times a week to sort of re-inferm that you're listening as well. As you know, hey, taking notes here, i tend to take notes on everything.
Speaker 2:So I am, but not in a, not like I never done it purposely to do that.
Speaker 2:But I often think of this as, like you know, shaping. we talk a lot in dog training. Obviously, i'd like people to work on training their dogs every day or doing these various things, but it's like, where can we start? So, doing something one time a week, okay, that's like starting with a quick sit. You know that's the only thing we have. That's where we start.
Speaker 2:So I think of it as a shaping their behavior to more commitment and interest and dedication to working with a dog. And I also, in the context of setting them up for success, i always try to have the first thing that I have them work on, something that I think has a really, really, really high probability of working well, because it's reinforcing to them. And if you know, if you have to work for like three months before you see any progress, that's really hard to keep your motivation. I mean, if I had to give up desserts for three months before I finally lost a two ounces of weight, you know I'll be very motivating. So you know I want people to get some immediate positive feedback that what they're doing is working. So sometimes that's a part of setting them up for success.
Speaker 1:Sure, i was going to kind of ask you about that. If a client is limited in the participation that they can give, for whatever reason, oftentimes it's a very valid reason. But let's say you know that they're only going to make so much progress. How do you, in part, like urgency? in terms of it It's like saying, okay, it's great you can take your dog out once a week, but you know from your experience, at that rate it could take many, many sessions which could lead to the point of them getting discouraged because they're not seeing the changes they want to make. Do you have any kind of secret recipe for getting them to express that urgency and what they're doing, especially from a safety and management standpoint?
Speaker 2:Yeah, from a safety and management standpoint. You know, i definitely try to work hardest on like if you only have this much time and energy to commit to it, then this is where I want that effort to go. We can at least hold the behavior, not necessarily improve it. I would try to get those people to see me more often. I mean lots of times I'll see a client and then I'll see a client in another, see them in another couple of weeks, another couple of weeks. But sometimes people that are very, very busy and it doesn't mean that they're actually busier in their life, but maybe more busy in their mind like they're harder for them to commit the time. You know, it's not that the time does not exist in their day, but it's the energy and effort to commit that time. So sometimes I'll, you know, try to see them twice a week for a couple of weeks to get them started in the habit, if they're willing. So that's one thing. Another thing is I just am very direct, like I believe that your dog can get better, but it is going to take effort. It is going to take time and effort from you and you're the only one that can do it. So let's figure out a way that, especially here at the start, that we can really get going like can you work on this and have another person take over this part of your life, or can you order out that night so you're not cooking? Can you you know that kind of thing? or figure out on your day off the idea of, like, maybe committing to a certain amount of that time to your dog? Is there one thing from your life that's causing you anxiety that you can eliminate this week to then reallocate that energy with your dog?
Speaker 2:Some people are very committed and you know they sort of do whatever you say, and some people need a lot of help. Some people need a little bit of help. And then there's the occasional client, and I mean there's some of my most challenging clients. They're not committed to the idea that they have to do anything Like. I had one client that I only saw one time. They never had a follow-up, which is very unusual.
Speaker 2:Usually I see people multiple times and then I overheard them at a party saying, like well, i consulted a professional and like the dog still liked it. It's like, yeah, but you didn't do anything. You know, i mean it's, and I'm not trying to be mean to my client, but I mean, i think that their, their idea of commitment was like well, to be able to just throw their arms up and say like well, i consulted with professional, that was the level of commitment that they had. There's not a lot. Frankly, i can do with that. Thankfully. That's rare and I'm not real proud of that. I mean, i would have loved to have been able to say, even though that's how they came in, i was able to turn it around, but they were just not in that place, which is, you know, it doesn't make me look very good, but there you have it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that resonates with me totally, because I've Definitely experience that where somebody will say I met with a professional, is really well known trainer, something like that, and they do one session and then you never hear from them again, and then they kind of use that and I don't you know, i don't necessarily fault them either, because sometimes we're actually brought in to give them validation for the decisions that they're making, whether it's behavioral euthanasia, management or re-homing, and they may not have in their mind in that initial console ever, or even before that, to follow through on any particular behavior change strategies.
Speaker 1:So in that regard, you know, as trainers and consultants ourselves, let's say we have those cases where it may be not so extreme, like that was just a one and done, or we have somebody that's going through the five, six, seven sessions And they're just not doing the work that we've asked them to do, they're not putting in the behavior change strategies, there's lots of management failures. So it's not a very, you know, extreme case of all. They just, you know, not listening to anything and they're just letting the wrong run around the neighborhood, kind of thing. And it's also not on the opposite end where They're completely committed or they just do the one and done what some of your advice for the trainers and consultants listening in on to what what they should do.
Speaker 1:when they get that they're sort of stuck, because that often can lead to the burnout and compassion fatigue we often see in our industry, especially if we have a large case load of those clients. so any suggestions or ideas there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean I guess, like any, any other trainers that are listening to this, i mean I struggle with this. I mean sometimes people aren't doing things because it's just too much. Like I worked with a family a number of years ago. They had, you know, two autistic children and elderly parent living with them who needed a lot of care, and it's like who. I'm surprised anyone has time to make ice in this house, much less, you know. I mean It was really tough and with them, you know, i just really focused on what are the ways that you can do this while you're doing other things, you know, in other words, like if you're helping this child, you know, tie their shoes and do some other like tactile things, like How many Kongs can you give your dog in a day before he's the size of Texas? basically, you know, really working on a lot of management for a lot of people. They have the time but just not the inclination. And in that case I find that and I've talked about this in a lot of places the more that I can incorporate play into training, the more I find that people are on board. So I know that many people years ago used to talk about giving their clients homework. I've never liked the term and thankfully I think it's fallen quite out of fashion in our field. But talking about like I really focusing on, like just spending time with your dog everything builds a relationship and I use play in a lot of ways to treat aggression.
Speaker 2:And I think incorporating play Does a couple of things for getting people on board. One it's fun. The dog already probably knows how to do some of these things are not starting from square one. Then the other thing is, i think a lot of people they come in and you can just see the weight of the aggression problem on them. It just feels so insurmountable, so daunting, and I can almost picture when I start talking about using play to treat this issue, i can almost see a cartoon bubble over some of my clients heads. It's like, oh, i thought this was really serious, but it can't be that bad. If we're gonna play our way out of it, they have to be cautious. That because you still want prevention and management and safety, of course, but I think that gives people a lot of hope and that's helpful. And then the other thing about that and I've said a number of times that Since I mostly see aggression cases. I see other kinds of behavioral issues and just some general training, but you know, 90% aggression cases.
Speaker 2:The most important thing that I can do for people is to like their dog and I do like. I mean it's a really, really rare dog that I don't see tons of wonderful things about. I mean I'm talking like a couple of times a decade. I'm like, wow, like you know, this, this dog is, you know, and that just because the same thing with people, i mean there can be people that are in a bordering on sociopathic and you can very, very rarely meet a dog like that as well. But I love all the dogs, i mean, and so many of them are fearful and sweet and amazing, but they're still using their teeth in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:So if I recommend play and if I see them playing with their dog or I play with their dog, i'm getting to see a side of their dog that they can see, that I like their dog, even though I like all the dogs pretty much. But this way they're seeing it, i think that's really helpful and I think one of the saddest things about having aggressive dog especially because most dogs are aggressive to strangers or other dogs is not. I don't see as many cases in the home. If you have a dog that's aggressive but it's so sweet with you, other people aren't seeing the dog you love and I think that's a tragedy. So I think if I use play then people are often more on board for that reason, like they feel like it's manageable, they feel like I like their dog, they feel like they're going to do fun things with their dog to help improvement doesn't feel like a chore.
Speaker 1:I love everything you're talking about because it's so nice to see play being brought into the dog training community much more now and lots of trainers Dr Amy Cook's talking about it and I see many, many more trainers using it. Not that we're stepping away from food and other reinforces, of course, but not even that we would even use play force reinforcer, necessarily, but it's.
Speaker 1:It actually checks so many boxes at the same time. You know, building that relationship, finding something positive with their dog, finding an activity, giving the dog exercise and enrichment All in one chunk of time. But what I really, really love that you're looking at is the when the client can see us, a trainer, or even another human being on the planet, being able to interact with their dog that previously they were worried about Biting everybody else or nobody would ever be able to come near their dog, and such a powerful, powerful tool to give the client hope right.
Speaker 2:Definitely, and I know I love that. So many people are talking about play now. I gave my very first talk on using play to treat aggression in March of 2000. And so it's just the beginning of the century and I feel like I was talking about using play especially with treating aggression and you know, more than just playing before classes and after and, and at that time there was a lot of hesitation about it and some people kind of got interested. And now when I say that, they're like oh yeah, yeah, that's the thing now.
Speaker 2:It's like it makes this is like the happiest thing to me, because I've been talking about this for the better part of a quarter century about the importance of play and treating dogs especially with aggression, and it's become absolutely mainstream now it's. I think it might be the thing in dog training behavior that makes me the happiest now Is to hear that that's like now I don't want to say ordinary, because I it's never going to be ordinary, it's always going to be magical in a way, but that it's like everybody knows about it. It makes me so Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'd love to dive into your observations of the evolving dog training field in a little bit, but you know, i kind of also wanted to touch base about This calmness or sort of even keel sort of.
Speaker 1:When I meet trainers like yourself, or consultants or PhDs that have been working a long time with aggression cases, so not just a couple years, we're talking decades, at least 10 years or more There's some common traits. I don't know what it is like, this calmness I usually see it with people that have been able to, because, let's face it, it's not easy to work aggression cases day after day for many years And not have to take time off or not experience burnout or compassion fatigue, sometimes on a regular basis. But the trainers that I've seen, i've been doing it for a long time. There's some. I don't know if you see the same thing like something common, like this just calmness sort of then, like state about, especially when they're talking with other people or even talking about the topic, and even really difficult, sometimes very gory and tragic situations, it's still the same sort of even killness comes across. What do you, what are your thoughts there?
Speaker 2:You know I haven't really thought about that, but now that you've mentioned it it's like I never thought about it the way you're saying it. But as you're saying it I'm like uh huh, uh huh, like it's just like there's been a place in my brain for that idea, but I didn't know it was missing until you said it. Yeah, well, just off the top of my head, because obviously I hadn't thought about this. There's two things. One is I think that if, if you're too reactive as a person, like taking on, you almost need a certain level The word detachment isn't right but you can't take on all the emotions, that you can empathize with the emotions that people are feeling, but you can't really take it on too much. It's exhausting. I mean, you know, like I remember times when I would have a case where it's like, okay, they've got a really aggressive dog and a new baby do in a week. And then you know a case where, like it, you know, bit their babysitter and they're, you know, being sued. And then another case where it's like I mean I remember this one case because I asked the there's the same day that the person said I asked how serious was the bite to your son it was a college age son and they said, oh, not that serious. The plastic surgeon said the only reason his eyelid tour was because he pulled away. It's like, okay, anytime they're mentioning plastic surgery is serious, right, and you know, it's just like. I remember that day was particularly exhausting because I'm like, oh my gosh, what kind of a job am I doing, my heavens. But you can't always take it on or you have to be able to kind of shed it, and I think that is a little bit zen-like, it's very martial artsy. Just let the energy just go right by you. So I think you have to be able to do that. So I think the only people that survive in this field seen aggressing cases for decades have the ability to do that. So you're seeing, basically what I would think of as an evolutionary biologist is a selection event. The people that are too upset by it or too alarmist about it don't last.
Speaker 2:And the other thing is that something I love. I love about my work, and so many people ask me like I'd love to do what you do because I love dogs, and then they talk about how much they love dogs And then they kind of segue into like I don't even like people. You know I hate people And it's like well, that's not going to work because, like my clients are people and dogs and people to my favorite species I really enjoy people. In fact, during the pandemic I learned that I needed people in a way I didn't know like all those just daily interactions at the grocery store, at my son's basketball game or at a soccer game, like I went insane without them. You know, like I just really needed all those kind of interactions. I enjoy it And I think that in order to do it you have to really be able to enjoy the people and enjoy people in sort of all our glory as a species.
Speaker 2:And you see people there in really emotional situations. You know marriages in peril, you know huge anxiety about finances and insurance and time management and jobs, and I think that you have to be such a people person and so accepting of whatever states they come in, to be that way. But it's interesting to me that you said a calmness and a Zen quality, because I think one of the reasons that I've able to work with aggression cases is I have a very strong, startle response, like it's still fun for everyone that's known me my whole life to like jump out at me around the corner because I'm always like, and I think if you're working with aggressive dogs you have to be responsive to little things or you could get hurt. So I mean, i try not to startle around dogs that can make it worse, but like the littlest things. I bet if you videotaped me with cases, there's a ton of times when I'm not letting my whole body react, but I'm my eyes flare like. I'm like oh, that was close, that was serious.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting you say that, because in my mind I was thinking about, you know, getting the somebody characteristics we were talking about. So the startle response, or at least having some awareness that something dangerous could happen, right Something that could happen.
Speaker 1:But it's funny, the startle response aspect, it's so Trish McMill and my colleague I forgot we're doing a workshop in Providence somewhere And we're just driving the car and the window was open and we were pulling up to the workshop And Katina Jones was like nearby and she ran up to the window and she's like scared us. She was like ah, at the window And I was just like whoa, you know, like I got completely startle, but Trish was just like no reaction at all. And Trish has worked with, you know, aggression cases for many years And I would consider her as sort of very even keeled commoness But she's actually very good at sensing the danger that you were explaining there. So it's funny how we have different ways of you know responding when something startles us.
Speaker 2:You know I'm a bit of a worrier. I'm always prepared for everything. I always have like with me duct tape, safety pins, advil, full first aid kit, ice pack. You know, i'm always like really prepared. I'm always like this could happen, that could happen when my kids are little. I'm like it's a parking lot Trust no one.
Speaker 2:And someone once said to me like Karen, it seems like you're like afraid of the whole world. How can you possibly work with aggression cases? It's like because I'm afraid of the whole world And I know how to be careful, you know, and I mean I'm not panicked about the whole world, but it's like I don't think that you can see aggression cases If you're like I. Literally I feel like I see some people they don't believe a dog could ever bite because they don't have any experience with it, they've never seen it, they've never heard of it. But I'm like any dog can bite.
Speaker 2:They all have teeth And I don't mean that that I'm thinking of them negatively, but being aware of what can happen I think is critical to doing this. You kind of can't be like Oh yeah, i know your dogs like jumping and like lunging at the fence and giving a tooth display, but you don't think it's really going to bite. It's like, yeah, i think that's a distinct possibility. I think a lot of people never believe it's going to happen, which, in a way, to me is amazing that, with all the experience that people have with dogs, most people have never seen a dog bite or been bitten or had a dog who's bitten, which is pretty remarkable. I mean, we often talk about how much aggression there is, but I think something that's equally interesting is how little there is, in a sense, Yeah, yeah, it's true, it's true.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned being careful. I think other words we could put on is just you're just being proactive and prepared, and that's a big part of it.
Speaker 1:That sounds better, big part of, I think, just avoiding these situations and kind of a question is just having that knowledge and being prepared for it. So in this regard, one of the themes also of this year seems to be self care and, for trainers and consultants, again working the aggression space. Do you have anything that you've taken away over the years that you do or you could share personally, or maybe what you've seen other trainers do to help themselves again, working day after day just seeing these really sometimes horrific or emotional situations?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, i remember actually, when I first started working for Patricia McConnell, which was in 1999, i sat in all her aggression cases for I think, six months-ish and started training you know, doing some of her training classes. And I asked her one time about like the training classes you know like because she's had a PhD and started with the aggression cases And she said, well honestly she saw aggression cases all day long and that it was so important to then do like puppy classes and beginning training classes that you needed that balance. So I worked for her for full time for four years until 13 hours before my son was born. I worked till 630 or sorry, 531 night. I went home, watched my husband play a football game, went to bed, woke up at like 3.34 in the morning and had a baby at 6.30. It was like whoops quick. We used to joke that we're going to have to have a whelping box in the office and my office had dogs, best friend in case. I decided to deliver there, but I didn't. But I worked there full time for four years and I always taught puppy classes and dog and intermediate classes and beginning classes, tricks and games as a balance.
Speaker 2:So I have two kids ever since they were born I've worked part time And so it wasn't quite as heavy a load. I only see like two to five or six cases a week now And most of my work now is writing, which my kids are older now One's a senior in high school, one's a freshman in college But for many years my work life balance is really important to me. A lot of people, i think, like a lot of my kids teachers thought I was a stay at home mom. I always picked them up. I did everything. I just worked at home and saw clients a little bit. Most of my work is writing. So the reason I got so into writing was really that that way, if the school called me and my kids were sick, i just hit save and went to pick them up and I didn't do anything. So to me now it's important to have, i think, another element of your work besides just seeing aggression cases. It used to be for me teaching, training classes, group classes, and now it's the writing. So I think that's a balance.
Speaker 2:It is tricky though. I mean sometimes I do have kind of a heavy hearted day where things are really tough with a case, and as much as I try not to just take it in and wear it. Sometimes you just feel so much for a particular people in a particular situation that it's hard to sort of take that away. And I also would feel like if you no longer feel some of the weight of the emotions of people, it's a balance. You don't want to feel it so much that you're just overwhelmed. But if I feel like if I got to a point where I like, yeah, that thing could euthanize and they're like it's time to quit, you got to get out If you don't care. So I guess I don't really have a very long answer for me to say I don't really have an answer other than to have other things that you do professionally.
Speaker 1:No, i highly agree. That's it's so important to have because I actually recognize that need. A few years in, i started to explore other things. Well, let me start teaching other trainers, or let me focus on posting content or whatever it is to get my mind off. Just the direct client consultant relationship all the time. So it's a very powerful tool And I always do recommend to my students you don't have to just work, crush a case after a crush case after a crush case. Do some other stuff, create some content, webinars that are eventually going to be used for your clients, but it'll allow you more creativity. But it also allows you, i found, to kind of process what you've learned. It's almost like writing your own diary, like you're putting it on thoughts in a journal, but in a just a different aspect, and sometimes it's a public journal when you think about it. But I do find that that's very helpful in kind of getting our mind wrapped around maybe some of the lingering thoughts that could be plaguing us right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, And I also think sorry, I hope I didn't interrupt you there To talk to other colleagues and clients.
Speaker 2:Like I know, when I started I was working for Trisha McConnell and we saw aggression cases. But there was one conference I used to go to a year where I would meet other people that that did cases and saw aggression. It's so much better now with webinars and zoom. I mean in the early 2000s I mean it was so isolating. People don't, we don't as a field, we don't collectively tend to have a lot of colleagues There aren't. You know, there's not another aggression specialist in my town and there's only a couple others in my state, and so it can be really isolating. So it's really important to talk to other people. So I mean I talked to Trisha McConnell from time to time.
Speaker 2:Laura Monaco Trelli is someone that will often talk She's a good friend of mine as well And just talk to other people because it's a wonderful career in life. But it's kind of wild. Like my husband is a forestry professor, he studies ecology, does a lot with insect acoustics And my son, who's a freshman in college, was saying that he was just talking with his friends new friends, you know new friends again to know each other And he's like, yeah, some of my friends comment like, oh, how both your parents do really cool things. And I'm like, well, that's interesting, like we love what we do. But it's interesting that through my son and him talking like, oh, that sounds cool and interesting. And I think a lot of people think of what we do as so amazing and interesting. And I know this is Trisha McConnell's joke, but we have an agreement from years because we've written so much together and talked together that sometimes we don't remember who's joke it is, but this one I know is hers.
Speaker 2:It's like people imagine us in our job, you and me and Trisha, and you know Laura and Kathy Sadeo and you know Hannah Brownigan. They picture us running through fields of daisies in slow motion with a litter of Labrador puppies behind us, and it's like that's not what we do at all And I love what I do And it is amazing, but it does take a certain amount of. You have to have strong emotions and you have to be able to handle strong emotions. I mean I don't know about you, but like in my house call bag I have tissues, like people cry sometimes in appointments not often, but regularly enough and it's a regular supply for me, you know sometimes it's a big deal for people dealing with a dog that you know they have an animal they love and that animal is hurting someone.
Speaker 2:That is a big thing And you have to really be open to that but not not hoard those feelings.
Speaker 1:Yes, what you said there is so perfect for me. You know you have to have strong emotions, but also know how to deal with strong emotions from others. It's a skill really. It takes time. It's something I've certainly had to learn over the years. And you also message isolation. Everybody you're mentioning I'm like gosh. It's amazing support network you have of close friends.
Speaker 1:You know so, laura is definitely an amazing person, obviously Trisha, and so I always recommend that to my students, to, you know, find few. You don't need to have hundreds of trainers supporting you. Just find those couple people that know what you're going through because they work in the same space but you have there to lean on in case you need it. It's, it is very crucial And you have to. It works in two ways. You know you have to maintain those relationships and water them as well, but it's such an important aspect of what we're doing, we have to have that right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, completely. I had a case about a year ago. It was a multiple strike bite to the face to a two year old child. You know, and this is definitely a case where I'm like I am very concerned about the safety of your child. I do not think, i do not feel comfortable with this dog being, you know, with your child, and the issue was that the spouse of the person who had consulted me was just not on board at all, was just completely like whatever, it'll be fine. And you know, this is something that I called and talked to some of my friends about, because there's very few people that can understand what it's like to tell people your professional opinion.
Speaker 2:I'm an aggression specialist.
Speaker 2:I have seen it all from the okay, there was like a nip at the ankle during a play session versus, you know, like the person's down on the ground and the dog's still going.
Speaker 2:Now that I've seen it all, you know, like court cases and everything, and a multiple strike bite to the face of a toddler and a parent, that's like, oh well, i mean that was devastating to me, you know, just so, like not okay. And there are very few people that can understand what it's like to be in the unfortunate situation of trying to address the situation and feeling like your serious worry about the safety of this child is not being heard by one of the parents. You know, and I mean that's an extreme case And most of the cases I have are pretty happy resolutions overall, as you know. But I mean I'm assuming over the years you've had something maybe not that exact thing, but where you're like I shouldn't have to work so hard to let them know that this is dangerous, that their child is at real risk, and it's good to have people who understand that.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. Thankfully, you can count on one hand the number of cases that I've experienced like that, and so we don't want to scare anybody out of working on aggression cases if that's what you'd like to do, but it's also important to be eventually prepared for something like that, for sure.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, no, i don't mean to scare people away from aggression cases.
Speaker 2:In fact, i would love for people to do it more, and one of the things that I really find so fascinating is that a lot of people, i think, imagine that when you're working on aggression cases, people will have a dog that has some kind of aggression, maybe a little bit of a bite history, and that you turn them into a therapy dog And that does not happen.
Speaker 2:But sometimes people are able, because people's goals are often like I just want to be able to walk my dog without it being a misery, or I just want to be able to have my mother-in-law visit because she watches the kids every Wednesday with my dog being okay with that And maybe that's where they're at, but maybe the dog is away when other visitors come over And people are so happy Like I can't tell you how often people are so incredibly grateful for the way that our work together, like my ideas and their putting the work in, has changed their life. But it doesn't mean that in a lot of cases with aggression, they have a dog that can roam freely at a daycare. I feel like, amazingly, a lot of happy clients, even though there's still some prevention and management and some care and maybe they're hoping their next dog will be a little bit easier. But they're still really happy because the work that we do enabling them to stay safe, keep their dog in the home and keep the situation safe is life changing, even though it's not effortless.
Speaker 1:I'd like to tie everything we've been talking about now together. So working with humans, conversations with humans, the theme of your book and also kind of your experience being in the industry for a while. You've witnessed, i'm sure, conversations in the training community, come and go about all the different controversies that can come up in the training community And I think at the advent of social media we're seeing it just become much more exponentially. It's our awareness of it. I mean, we've seen it happen in the old days of Yahoo groups or even email chains, before any of the social media stuff was around. But there tends to be sometimes devices for this, depending on the time of year and the year and what's coming out. But what are your thoughts Like if you had one sort of main thought around all of this that's happened and then taking it into your experience as well as your approach of using kindness, what would it be?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess it would just be that I think that kindness is underrated for how powerful it is. I think kindness is so incredibly powerful And it's not that I am some power hungry nut job, but I want to influence the behavior of dogs, I want to influence the behavior of the people around me in various ways, And kindness allows that to happen. I think the power of kindness is underrated And I mean I just think that the more that kindness is put out there, the more it spreads and the more it's out there And I generally do my best to stay away from a lot of the controversies And I sort of just do my thing I don't think that I'm going to go wrong if I just try to present my kindest and nicest and calmest self-forward. I just don't think I'm going to go wrong with that. And as for all the controversies out there, I guess that will probably always be a part of a field that's really dynamic and moving and changing.
Speaker 1:Very, very well said, Karen. where can people find you Or what are you up to next for terms of projects? I think he's mentioned you have a little book coming out soon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, i'm on Instagram at KarenLondondogBehavior. I write for The Wildest, which is about pet parenting, and I do have a new book coming out because I write the animal column for my local paper, which is the Arizona Daily Sun, and it's a column called The London Zoo, which is based on my name. Obviously, there's nothing to do with the actual London Zoo. I've been writing for them since 2008. And this is the columns from 2008 to 2015 collected, except not the dog ones. The dog ones I'll put in a separate book, and the title of the book is named after one of the columns in the book And it's called Cows, ants, termites and Me. And Eileen Anderson of Eileen and Dogs, who also has the book Remember Me and the Puppy Socialization Book with Marge Rogers. She is my editor And she's a brilliant editor, yes, and so it's been a lot of fun working with her. There's the second book she's edited for me, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Cows, ants, termites and Me should be out sometime this spring.
Speaker 1:Oh, i'm looking forward to that, and shout out to Eileen Anderson as well She does some amazing writing, so if you're listening in, go check out her work as well. Karen, thank you so much. I really enjoyed talking to you And I hope to see you again in the future.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me on this podcast. It's really nice to talk with you. It's just, I feel like we have a lot in common And it's nice to hear your perspective and get to share mine as well.
Speaker 1:Definitely. I appreciate your time. I really love this conversation with Karen. There's just so many unique insights that can be uncovered when chatting with someone who has the depth and breadth of experience that she has, and I can't thank her enough for being so generous in sharing her expertise. And don't forget to head on over to aggressivedogcom for more information about helping dogs with aggression From the Aggression in Dogs Master Course to webinars from world-renowned experts and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs. We also have the Help for Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that you can subscribe to. These are solo shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety of types of aggression, such as resource guarding, dog-to-dog aggression, territorial aggression, fear-based aggression and much, much more. You can find a link to subscribe in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button if you are listening in on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening and stay well, my friends.