The Bitey End of the Dog
A podcast dedicated to helping dogs with aggression issues. Michael Shikashio CDBC chats with experts from around the world on the topic of aggression in dogs!
The Bitey End of the Dog
Sindhoor Pangal
One of my absolute favorite things about traveling is not so much seeing all the typical tourist attractions, but going out and watching the behavior and culture of dogs in countries. We can learn so, so much by observing how dogs navigate their worlds in other places on our planet. And I’ve been wanting to chat with Sindhoor Pangal for a long time because she is one of the world’s foremost experts on street dogs, or streeties as she refers to them in the most endearing way.
We chat about the challenges the dogs face, living in India, as well as the many benefits of not actually being confined in a home environment. I think you will really enjoy hearing Sindhoor share her unique insights in this episode.
For additional resources on helping dogs with aggression, visit:
https://aggressivedog.com
If you want to take your knowledge and skills for helping dogs with aggression to the next level, check out the Aggression in Dogs Master Course and get a FREE preview here:
https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/courses/aggression-in-dogs
Don't miss out on the third annual Aggression in Dogs Conference 9/30-10/2/22:
https://aggressivedog.com/conference/
Woof Cultr swag!
https://woofcultr.com/collections/the-aggression-in-dogs-conference
About Sindhoor:
Sindhoor is a canine behaviour consultant, a canine myotherapist and an engineer by qualification. She is a TEDx speaker, the author of the book, Dog Knows and an independent ethology researcher studying the free-ranging dogs in India. Her studies have been published by IAABC Foundation and PPG blog in the US, were presented at the PDTE summit in the UK and were mentioned in the book Canine Confidential by Dr. Marc Bekoff and a National Geographic Bookazine called the Genius of dogs. She is currently pursuing her master's in Anthrozoology from Exeter University (UK) and is the principal and director of BHARCS. BHARCS offers a one of its kind, UK accredited level 4 diploma on canine behaviour and ethology and boasts of students from all parts of India and across the globe. Sindhoor is also the country representative for Pet Dog Trainers of Europe (PDTE)
http://www.bharcs.com/
Limited time offer! The Aggression in Dogs Master Course and Expert Webinar Bundle! Only 50 will be made available.
https://aggressivedog.thinkific.com/bundles/the-aggression-in-dogs-master-course-and-expert-webinar-bundle-2024
Learn more about options for help for dogs with aggression here:
AggressiveDog.com
Learn more about our annual Aggression in Dogs Conference here:
The Aggression in Dogs Conference
Subscribe to the bonus episodes available here:
The Bitey End of the Dog Bonus Episodes
Check out all of our webinars, courses, and educational content here:
Webinars, courses, and more!
You know, one of my absolute favorite things about traveling is not so much seeing all the typical tourist attractions, but going out and watching the behavior and culture of dogs in different countries, we can learn so so much by observing how dogs navigate their worlds and other places on our planet. And I've been wanting to chat with sindoor. Pankow for a long time because she is one of the world's foremost experts on street dogs, or street ease, as she refers to them in the most endearing way. We chat about the challenges dogs face living in India, as well as the many benefits of not actually being confined in a home environment. I think you're really going to enjoy hearing Sundar share unique insights in this episode. If you are enjoying the body into the dog, you can support the podcast by going to aggressive dog.com where there are a variety of educational opportunities to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, including the upcoming aggression and dogs conference happening from September 30 Through October 2 2022 in Providence, Rhode Island, with both in person and online options. You could also learn more about the aggression in dogs master course, which is the most comprehensive course available anywhere in the world for learning how to work with and help dogs with aggression issues. Hey everyone, I'm back with a very special guest this week. I have been wanting to record this episode for years, even though the podcast hasn't been around for years. This is a topic that I'm deeply interested in learning more about. This week I've got sindoor Pankow from India who is She's a canine behavior consultants canine mio therapist and an engineer by qualification. She is a TEDx speaker, the author of the book dog nose, and an independent ethology researcher studying the free ranging dogs in India. Her studies have been published by WBC and PPG blog in the US, was presented at the PDT summit in the UK and was mentioned in the book canine confidential by Dr. Marc Bekoff, in a National Geographic Bookazine called the genius of dogs. She is currently pursuing her master's in anthropology from Exeter University, and as the principal and director of barks, barks offers a one of a kind, UK accredited level four diploma on canine behavior and ethology and boasts of students from all parts of India and across the globe. sindoor is also the country representative for pet dog trainers of Europe PDT. Welcome, Cinta. I'm really excited for this episode.
Unknown:I'm very excited to thank you for having me. I can't wait for this.
Michael Shikashio:Yeah, so we're gonna jump right into the topic of street dogs. But before we do that, I want to actually make sure we're defining these terms correctly, because you were before the show started recording you were educating me on some of the different terminology for it. And then when we kind of think about that term street dogs, it can encompass a lot of different dogs in our minds, especially here in the US. So So tell me more educate me more about the different terms or what you would describe as dogs,
Unknown:right? This one is an important one to talk about. And not everybody understands why it's important until you really start unwrapping it. I have heard a lot of different terms being used for these dogs. And quite honestly, though, I stick to straight talk. Now, I'm not entirely convinced that's the right term either. I think the technical term is really free living dogs, but I think we use the word street dog and that's okay. And in India, we fondly call them street ease. And that's what I'd like to do, because we always used to like, like to use terms that sort of express how fun we are of them write so I like the term street but and this is the reason why I want to talk about it. I have heard people use the term stray dog, feral dog, wild dog to describe these dogs. And there are a few things to note here. First up, they're not stray dogs. Stray dogs are x pet dogs or x companion dogs that have strayed they have strayed from where they're supposed to be right. It's kind of this matter out of place kind of thing. They've strayed somewhere. But these are not dogs that have strayed anywhere. They are inhabiters of the space, they've lifted, they were born on the streets brought up by other dogs. For generations, they've been free living animals, free range animals. They're not a product of abandonment. And one thing that I frequently bring up is, you know, when you talk about the history of the natural history of dogs, we talk about how dogs co evolved around human beings. And I don't know what school you come from, you could say 10,000 years ago, 40,000 years ago, you know, you put your number on it, and you picture those very, very early years of, you know, free living dogs around human beings. And what's really fascinating is we still get to see and experience that in India and that really is fascinating. So they are not stray dogs. That's not really what they're saying. They're not feral dogs. I either because, again, the definition of feral is an animal that was and when I say animal, I'm using that, to specifically talk about non human animals here. So a feral animal is one that was domesticated or in a domestic setting, and now has kind of encodes Gone Wild, right? Neither of these are applicable to us treaties, they never word, pet dogs or companion dogs or, you know, in, in a captive setting, they were always free, and they're not white. People picture them to be very aggressive with a lot of conflict. And today, we will probably discuss a lot of it's not really true, I have not seen friendlier dogs, or friendlier animals, it's just fascinating. And I definitely want to talk a lot more about it. And then the last term that gets used a lot is wild dogs. Now we must realize that there are wild dogs in India there are, but those are not Canis familiaris que en alpino. The whole the wild dogs that live in the jungles of India, they are not dogs are not the ones that we know, at least they're entirely different species. And so I think this terminology really becomes important because one is studies done on stray dogs are not necessarily relevant to straight dogs or sweeties. studies done on feral dogs are not necessarily representative of free ranging dogs, they are very different. And feral dogs in particular, stray dogs are harder to see in India, because they don't make it. Indian streets are hard to make it. So if you've not grown up on the streets, you're not going to make it. But with feral dogs, they live a different life, they have a different ontology, they have a different environment. So they have different behaviors, including different social structures, and their interaction with conspecifics, and others. And so that differentiation is important, particularly if you're going to say, hey, we're going to be getting technical about it, we're going to be getting accurate about it, we're now down to the details, right? And then this becomes important. So I think it's really important. And I would love for people to if they're listening in to really carry that in your mind and be critical about literature that you see on these dogs. And understand that there's a difference. And the other reason I want to emphasize the difference, and I'm going to insist on calling them status as the optics of it, because these terms like wild dogs and feral dogs are so overloaded, that there's a mental picture painted. That's just not real. It's not fair. So to me, they're Sweeties, that's the ones that I see those. They're the ones that I see. They're the ones I love and interact with. And so let's call them strategies for the stock.
Michael Shikashio:Yes, and I'm so glad you're clarifying all these terms, because I love actually the term free living dogs because it doesn't imply anything bad, right? When we hear those terms, you know, wild or feral, we're already all kind of already magically puts our mind to negative space when we hear those words. So words do matter. So free living dogs is really a great term. And the way you put it, do you differentiate between dogs that are somewhat owned by somebody. So you might have you know, when I was in Mexico, you have some street vendors. So the dogs come in air quotes home to that particular person's location. And then the next morning, they're off, and they're off doing whatever they want. And then just in the evening, they just happen to come to that same spot. And maybe that person feeds the dog, or maybe even lets them into their stoop area or somewhere. And so they technically just keep going back to that same location. So you could argue that they have like a home there. Do you differentiate that between dogs that don't have a human sort of companion of their own that they go back to?
Unknown:You're going to see every variation of this in a country like India. And so yes, we do see them. And it's not as simple a distinction either, because there are so many shades of that there as well. But I think it's important to note when we talk about Indians treaties, or Indian free living dogs, is that what's unique about them is that they enjoy a constitutional protection, in that it is illegal in the country, to either kill them or even relocate them. So you can't actually move them out of where they are at. Because this is interesting. The spirit of the law when it was written, recognized that when you move a dog from one territory to another, it can cause so much conflict that it can kill them. And so it impacts their welfare. So relocating them is not an option, they may lose their ability to survive. And in a place like my city in Bangalore, that that law is sort of the government is held responsible, held accountable to actually make that happen. So you really do see quite a bit of friendly attitude towards these dogs. And that means then there are people opening their doors to these dogs. They're willing to let them come in and go out and at the same time, the car Three, sort of the philosophy in many people in the country is that their right to freedom is something that it's a fundamental right, that that they they should have or they already have, it's a sentimental aspect of this. So you're going to have people who are going to enable the life of a free living dog to live a free life. And how do they enable it by saying, I don't mind throwing a few scraps out every evening, I will come out and give you food at the same place at the same time, or rather, most evenings, I'll let you come into sort of the perimeter, you know, of my property, maybe, and these dogs are not exactly homing. And that's interesting, because they, so I've heard some of my friends call it inside outside dogs, because we can come up with a metric. And one of one of my students described it really nicely. She said, this dog uses my house as an Airbnb, she comes in when she wants to, she just doesn't pay for it. But typically, the time said, they tend to come in as to it is weather related, right? When it's raining the monsoons around the corner. So when it's raining torrential rains, are when it's really hot. And of course, if you give them access to your sofa, then they're they're napping for a long time. But what's really interesting about them is if you try to convert them into pet dogs, they will fight you, they will try to run away their master escape artists. And so that's interesting. And it does impact them in terms of behavior. And so for me, that's interesting. But I don't think the government per se looks at them differently. And so that's an interesting problem for the Indian government, which is trying to kind of roll out. The best way to say this is kind of these colonial practices that don't necessarily fit in other parts of the world, like dog licensing, the idea of sort of getting everybody accountable. And the reason I'm talking about this is I just finished a paper on it, exploring sort of decolonized approaches to dealing with dogs in India. And so when the government comes in and tries to classify them as owned dogs, where you need a license and unknown dogs, where, you know, they don't need a license, and there isn't one person accountable, then what happens to all these dogs in between the ones who come home, like you mentioned, we definitely have a lot of those, particularly in villages, or like our Airbnb guests. Where do they fit in? Are they owned, or they are known who's responsible for them? And who provides care for them? These are interesting questions that India still is in the process of figuring out so. But they're interesting conversations to have.
Michael Shikashio:So I want to dive deeper into that aspect of things. You mentioned earlier that, you know, St. E's do have a tough life, but at the same time the government is doing has some laws in place to protect them in certain aspects. So can you dive into that further, sort of that dichotomy of having these protections, but also having this, you know, a difficult life there and in some of the aspects of what a difficult life they are experiencing?
Unknown:Right? I think the best way to understand it is to probably understand free living life, the way human beings have it. The truth is that not all of us have the best possible lives. And so there are going to be many different kinds of challenges, from social challenges, shortage of resources to conflict. But at the same time, there's also this inherent thing in pretty much I suppose, all living beings that can move is to value freedom quite highly. So perhaps that's probably why St. E's continue to kind of go back to that life. Again, not all of them. So you will see every variation, there are dogs that get themselves adopted. So that's an interesting thing to talk about. But the kind of conflict that these dogs see, has to do with food. What if they don't find resources, many of them will find what I would probably call patron homes or guardians, homes outside which they hang out or restaurants butchers, and they even know closing hours with these guys. So if they have, if they they're hot, let's call it their hot seat. You know, they're so poorly studied that we don't have words for a lot of these things. But if they have decided that a particular restaurant or a particular butchers is their home, or their their haunt, or their feeding place, they know closing hours, they will turn up there and seek food. But there is the risk that there could be other dogs that could be fight over. It doesn't always happen. I think the bigger issues have to do with disease. And that's something that is being addressed by sort of mass vaccination programs, conflict with humans who abuse them willfully. That's not to many in the large scheme of thinks I suppose all parts of the world have their share of people who do terrible things to animals. And in a country of a billion, that kind of becomes a very large number right when you and then to deal with traffic. Oh my goodness, if you've seen videos of traffic in India, most humans from outside India can't cross the streets in India. But these dogs do it. And they survive. And I find it fascinating. And that's another thing that I have footage, videos of dogs doing it, it's just incredible. I, I'd say those are the kind of the big conflict areas. But in a city like Bangalore, there are not only people who will kind of open up their homes to them. There are also people who call themselves feeders. And they go out and can feed anywhere between five to 10 dogs to 700 200, or 1000 2000 Dogs per day, with fresh cooked food made at their cost. And they take it out and they feed. And it's not, it's not 100 dogs that they don't know, it's not the first 100 dogs they meet. They know every one of these 100 dogs. In fact, one, one feeder said to me, he said, if there's a scratch on one of the dogs, I will recognize it, I will know he's in pain, I know something is off that. So they they know them, they love them, they know them, they know them by name, they they recognize each other. And so there is that there's a huge network of that, which is kind of burgeoning. And you know, there are a lot more people and particularly in Bangalore city, and some cities across India who are doing more and more of this. So there is that kind of care. And then the government does a little bit of care as well, in terms of which is required to do and sometimes delivers on it is free of cost vaccinations and free of cost. And we've got control procedures. Of course, there are shelters that are focused on providing providing care for injured animals and kind of trying to get them a home or provide them a place to convalesce. So that's kind of the support structure that's there. And it's really, I think of, I should definitely mention this as the top of the list of things that really help these drugs is there are an incredible number of people in India who will fight for them legally to ensure that they retain their life, their right to freedom. And I think that is really a game changer.
Michael Shikashio:That is the absolutely a big part of the conversation I want to have is just how much that impact of freedom has on their behavior, both positive in positive ways in negative ways. But yeah, there's so many things I want to unpack in what you were just talking about in one of the aspects permission, when we're talking about dogs around the world that have access to traffic in the streets and being injured or disease. You know, there's lots of considerations. There are often the argument is okay, yes, they can have a very robust enriched social life. But there's a cost to that in the in the risk of you know, traffic getting hit by cars, getting injured, having run ins with other animals or dogs that are a dog that's contained, for instance, all day in an at home is not going to experience so what are the diseases are that I know that rabies may be one consideration, and what are the diseases that are most impactful for the dogs there and how is that being dealt with that you're seeing?
Unknown:Well, the usual suspects you have your rabies, CD, distemper, lepto, leptospirosis to some extent, I guess, tick fever too. But that's something that doesn't surface easily. And then there definitely going to be pretty much everything that most people see. But you know, it's hard to kind of notice it and street dogs, because you really need very, very close observation, to know that they're suffering from other ailments. And of course, injury, right, sort of sustaining physical injury, either through fights with other dogs or human artifacts or humans themselves. And I think in terms of rabies, there is the government is trying, I would definitely say that needs to be more well. There is a pretty good research in terms of not just how to capture and vaccinate these dogs and the efficacy of programs of that kind to create a rabies free environment. And there are some wonderful success stories in India, but really, we need more political will to kind of roll it out. And then other things like rabies vaccines, that is that can be orally consumed, so it can sort of be put in eggs and tossed out to these dogs. So that kind of an effort and when the dogs are caught for neutering, they usually vaccinated for other diseases. So that provides some layer of protection as well. But yes, a free life is a life that is wrought with the challenges of a free life, be it a wild animal baguette and urban animal, be it the pigeons in the sky in the city or be it human beings. I mean, it's true of all of us.
Michael Shikashio:So, are there laws in place you mentioned you know, Some of the abuse that can happen other laws in place against that particular aspect you mentioned there's it's obviously illegal to kill for dogs but or relocate them. But do you see much prosecution for abuse? Or as people out in the streets maybe doing witnessing that happening? And anybody doing anything about it?
Unknown:Yes, sir. No, yes to the first question and no to the second, which is, yes, there are laws, but we don't see it being implemented as much. And the laws, while the laws are not too bad, actually, the fines that come with it, the punishment for it is, it's ridiculous. It's like a five cent fine. If I'm somewhere in that range, like, it's outdated. It's from the, you know, post, just post independence, you know, 1947 kind of thing. It's just ridiculous numbers. It may or may have been updated after that. But it's still it's just ridiculous. And, and because of that, the, though there are a lot of people who try really hard to kind of hold the government accountable to say, Okay, you need to hold this abuser accountable. What does that accountability mean? It really doesn't go that far. So I think that's a very painful thing for many people who fight for the welfare of free dogs in India, which is to push the government to say we need something more sensible. The sentiment is there, but it's just not caught up with the times. That's that's a conversation that is that needs to be had.
Michael Shikashio:So in that regard, it the general culture of you know, when the public is walking by dogs on the street, they're so you see 3d, and then people are walking by what are the general interactions like because I know if somebody saw us, as a dog out on the streets here, where I live, they would call out the National Guard, and everybody be chasing the dog to try to capture it to figure out where it belongs, or where it lives. And if you go to other countries, they're everywhere, just walking by a dog, maybe sleeping in the sidewalk, and just nobody's touching the dog or having that inherent need to stick their hand in the dog's face. And, and so what is the culture? Like their hours? Is it? And how much is the disease also impact that? Are there some because of the potential risk rear rabies or things like that? Do you see that impacting things greatly? Or where people are like, Oh, stay away from the dogs? Or they just kind of ignore the dogs? Or are they actively engaged with the dogs?
Unknown:So like, in any part of the world, I think people in India will fall into three buckets, people who, like dogs, I love dogs, people who are kind of indifferent to them, and people who are afraid or hate that, right? So you obviously are going to see all three. But dogs are such a big part of reality, that it's something that you just need to learn to walk by no matter where you fall in this, you need to learn to walk past them, otherwise, you're just not going to get past he's holding the first few steps you get out there. Disease is not something. So it's really interesting that you ask that because I was actually reading up on the attitudes of people in India towards rabies and things like that. And it's sometimes it's frustrating for people that this is doesn't seem to be on top of people's minds. And I think that frustration is probably unwarranted because there's a reason why it's not on top of their mind. Because street dogs, when they get unwell are very unlikely to be around people, they tend to actually go and hide. And in fact, many people who care for street teas, if they don't find their familiar dogs, the first thing that they're going to suspect is that the dog is unwell. Why hasn't he turned up, he's hidden somewhere, and he's unwell. And sure enough, that's something that we do see a lot of, of course, the late part of rabies is significantly different, right? The last part of rabies is when they're actually out there. And it's a very, very sad situation. And difficult one too. So I don't think that's a deterrent for people. I think a lot of people learn to walk past them, people who are afraid of them, learn simple things like you see a dog on the right side of the street, crossover and walk on the left side of the street. So things like that, I think is already I mean, you just got to do that time. What option do you have, there is nobody to call, there isn't a National Guard to call there isn't anybody to call. And I must point out at this point that one of the last studies that we were doing with street tees, we were trying to kind of see how they respond to human beings and just our gestures and attitudes. And what I found really interesting is that street dogs are very good at figuring out where in this bucket you are. And that I think is interesting. It's very key to survival and they will kind of cooperate with your intent there. So if your intent is to kind of walk past the dog, you will see that the dog will choose not to engage with you either. They don't make themselves conspicuous. So it's almost like people are blind to the dog. That there is a dog there is something and dogs make themselves quite comfortably blind. I mean, invisible. They can do that. Whereas, if you are somebody who likes a dog, and we can talk about this in a bit, but they will pick you out in a crowd, they will pick you out in a crowd and actually come and approach you. And if you're somebody who has malicious intent to hurt the dog, many of them do a pretty good job at figuring that out to
Michael Shikashio:you see, this is why I want to come the I forget Disney World, forget Las Vegas, I am coming to see you just to experience that because that is that is what excites me is that just the behavior of dogs. So let's, let's jump into that since this is a behavior podcast, you know, kind of talk about a little bit more about that behavior and what you're seeing, and how intelligent the dogs are, you know, and we often, as you were mentioning, we were talking about this before, it's that there's like this myth about, you know, street ease or street dogs may not be you know, they don't have the same training or the same, you know, all the things we do to interact or to, you know, show off in our dogs here with our own dogs, but Street is are very intelligent. So we'll talk more about that and what you're seeing.
Unknown:I think I probably want to start this off by giving you a little anecdote straight out of my book, where I kind of explore the cognitive and social abilities of street dogs. And I kind of end that section by saying, particularly in, in reference to training, and the kind of train behaviors, right here is a dog that's capable of doing all of this is an animal that's capable of telling a good, you know, a friendly kind human versus somebody with malicious intent, knows how to cross the streets, knows how to problem solve, knows how to negotiate social structures with multiple dogs, friends and foes and negotiate the politics of their world, which is another very interesting thing. Here's a dog that's able to do so much figure out what's toxic food, what's not, what do you eat? What not? Who do you beg from? How do you get yourself adopted, if you want to? Which human being is likely to adopt you? And how do you get yourself adopted? How do you bake? How do you procure food from people? I have even seen dogs being able to sort of go to their caretakers and seek medical help for themselves for their friends, how are they communicating all of this? How are they reading us? So well? How are they sizing us up? So well. This is enormous amount of stuff that they are able to do. And here we are training them to do repetative exercises like sit down, you know, give me a boy, it's just and so you know this quote from I don't know how many people are fans of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. But there's this robot in it, Marvin, the Paranoid Android and he keeps complaining, saying I have the brain the size of a planet. And here you are asking me to open doors. Talk about job satisfaction, right? It's such an underutilized thing. You're getting so excited that you got your dog to learn five commands. And what I am saying is a dog that doesn't need you to open your mouth and can look into your soul and figure out how to work with you and how to make you do things that is necessary for their survival. Are you kidding me? I mean, come on this, that's really the depth of what we should be getting at. And, and I think that kind of starts shining a light on what these animals that we have be recognized as a dog, and we have brought them into our homes, and we've kept them here. What are they capable of? How much do their minds work? And how, what are the complex things that they're able to actually figure out? I would love to see more curiosity around this. Which part of this? Would you like to know more about? Where should we start?
Michael Shikashio:I couldn't agree more with everything you're saying right now. Because when you look, if you take a step back and just look at all the dogs around the world, and the cultures of dogs, and just how skewed it's like shifted in such odd ways, and what we're teaching dogs or how we're interacting with dogs in some environments and cultures, and how much things really don't make sense. When you think about you know, what, what's the point of teaching a dog how to sit, for instance, in a in a particular situation? Is it really that important? Is it really the things that dogs need to learn in a class? And when you look back and you look at the life of a 3d, it all starts to really come like full circle, right? What are we doing here? What do we how are we interacting with the dogs? What are conversations like? What's the lifestyle we're bringing them into? So we're gonna jump more back into that topic? We're going to take a short break for word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back here with Centaur. Hey, friends, it's me again. And I hope you are enjoying this episode. You may have figured out that something I deeply care about is helping dogs with aggression issues live less stressful, less confined, more enriched, and overall happy lives with their guardians. Aggression is so off been misunderstood. And we can change that through continued education, like we received from so many of the wonderful guests on this podcast. In addition to the podcast, I have two other opportunities for anyone looking to learn more about helping dogs with aggression issues, which include the aggression in dogs master course, and the aggression in dogs conference. If you want to learn more about the most comprehensive course on aggression taught anywhere in the world, head on over to aggressive dog.com and click on the dog pros tab, and then the master course, the course gives you access to 23 modules on everything from assessment, to safety to medical issues to the behavior change plans we often use in a number of different cases, including lessons taught by Dr. Chris pockle, Kim Brophy and Jessica Dolce. You'll also receive access to a private Facebook group with over 1000 of your fellow colleagues, and dog pros all working with aggression cases. After you finish the course you also gain access to private live group mentor sessions with me where we work through practicing many different cases together. If you need see us, we've got you covered. We're approved for just about every major training and behavior credential out there. This is truly the flagship course offered on aggression in dogs and it's perfect for pet pros that want to set themselves apart and take their knowledge and expertise to the next level where we do for pet owners who are seeking information to help their own dog. And don't forget to join me for the third annual aggression and dogs conference either in person or mine from Providence, Rhode Island on September 30 Through October 2 2022. This year's lineup includes many of them amazing guests you might have heard on the podcast including Suzanne cool the air, Jen Shryock, Simone Bueller, Dr. Ampere, Batson Kim Brophy, charisma voire, Lauren Monaco, tirelli, Dr. Simone Gadbois, and many more, head on over to aggressive dog.com and click on the conference tab to learn more about the exciting agenda on everything from advanced concepts and leash reactivity to using positive reinforcement to work with predatory behavior. And if you'd like to show off your support for the podcast, this year, we teamed up again with the folks over at Wolf culture for some catchy limited run conference merchandise, what culture is known for their witty, nerdy and no nonsense apparel that was created in 2019, to spread more awareness towards the use of humane training methods. Their PowerShell is here to help you start conversations, advocate for your animals and rep force retraining in a different way. Don't forget to get your conference gear, it leaves the site after 1231 2022. If you want 10% off your order, use the code bitey 10, bi t y one zero at checkout. All right, welcome back. We're talking with senhora bunk all about street dogs, treaties, and all of the behavior aspects. And so let's continue on that conversation. Because it's fascinating for me and the humans the differences depending on what part of the world you are with the street ease and how they're interacting with people, and also dependent on the resources as well. So maybe we talk about that we had talked about the feeders in India and the scarcity of food in some aspects. Whereas if you go to some other countries, you might see dogs in a very touristy area where they're gonna be very picky about the food, you know, I know if I hand my dog, a scrap of bread or something, she's gonna suck that down like a vacuum, versus you go to try to give a piece of bread to a dog in a tourist area they make? I don't think so. And they're very well fed. They are not, they're definitely not having a hard time finding food, they're getting the best of the best from the tourists and from the vendors there. So let's talk about that the scarcity of resources and how much you can impact the behavior what you see there,
Unknown:right. I mean, it's such a wonderful topic, and so much to talk about, like every aspect of this. But I must mention it. So I have a story much like what you just mentioned. So we had a visitor coming down from Belgium, and she was doing a workshop on sensory integration for dogs. And we decided to do one of the workshops at shelter. And what was interesting is there was there were two dogs there that had been brought in from the street because one of them was injured, and so needed to recuperate, you know, got medical intervention and needed to recuperate. And the second one apparently just couldn't live without his friend. So he had been brought into the shelter just to hang out there. And shelters in India are a little bit different in that it's not all kennel dogs, so many dogs, just they have free area that they run around in, they just, you know, they're not, they're not isolated. So this guy was just walking around the shelter, you know, like a tour guide around the shelter kind of chap. And so he was brought in for the demo. So somebody said, Hey, you know, we need a dog and he was just hanging out with us. And we were like, Yeah, let's do it. And so somebody decided to pull out some my friend from Belgium decided to pull out some cheese too. We'll see if she could get him to get interested in what we were doing. And she had two types of cheese. And he was very, very clear. One type of cheese was a no. And the other was a yes. And guess what? He said no to the processed cheese and said yes to the fresh cheese. So yeah, they got taste. Don't you underestimate us treaty's. They got taste, and they have they know good cheese from bad cheese, okay. But absolutely resources to impact behavior. And I think of all things resources, perhaps impact behavior, you know, very loud in significant way. So if you're putting them in a place where there is very limited resources, there's, there is a fight for survival. And they need to instinctively know that there is going to be a fight for survival, which means they're already very agitated, they're in an agitated state of mind. And so there's going to be more conflict, when you're already agitated, you really don't have to look into you know, what triggered the conflict, it takes so little to trigger conflict, if you are sort of in a very, you know, wound up all the time about something or very stressed, I don't want to use the word stress, because I think that word has just been used in so many contexts, incorrect contexts, but but you get the point, it's, it's his dog that is kind of on edge. And in, in even in India, despite the constitutional protection, we have different states that do different things. So parts of the country where they are not supported with feeders, they're not supported through the state governments actually go against the Constitution and do illegal killing and things like that. We not only see dogs have higher degree of conflict among themselves, but also that human beings human dog conflict or human animal conflict is very high in these areas. They're extremely wary of human beings very low amount of trust. And that's, that's like, fuel on wood. Right? It's, you know, that just waiting to snap that quickly. Definitely. You see, dogs in Bangalore, on the other hand, particularly when it's almost quite easy to spot dogs that have feeders, because they tend to be extremely friendly, almost to the point where I sometimes worry that they're not cautious enough. I wish they were a bit more cautious. But they do drop their guard and they're extremely friendly. As a result, they do need to do that they do need to swing in the opposite direction. And I keep reminding people this, do not forget that a dog evolved in an ecological niche that included human beings, which means that we are a big part of their resources, we determine the survival, they have come to learn how to use us as a resource, not only asking for food, and that's another thing. A lot of people think that dogs are primarily predators. That's not what we see with free living dogs. They are primarily beggars. And the next form of food is scavenging. So the first form of food is convincing you to give them the fabulous cheese, right? So communicating with us getting resources from us, or medical intervention from us resolving conflict, I've had dogs that use me when they realize that I'm a friendly person to use me to help resolve conflict with other dogs. That's just, that's just fascinating. So when we talk about resources like that, we have to factor in the human resource as well, and see that it does play a huge impact on how they behave towards conspecifics. And us.
Michael Shikashio:Yeah, and what you're really kind of talking about is sort of the next chapter in the story of domestication, right? It's just we're continuing in that aspect. We're just seeing it in a much grander scale in a more busy environment now much more populated environments and the long story of just acquiring resources for survival. So along those lines, I would love to hear you talk more about the aggression that you see in the dogs competing for these resources. Do you see very overt conflicts between the dogs where there's serious injuries? Or is it much more conversational? Where you might see some T flashing but no injuries because of the risk or the expense of aggression? Yeah, in those contexts? Yeah.
Unknown:You know, we owe a lot to Darwin. But I think one of the things that we probably have been suffering from is the idea of survival of the fittest, the notion of the like the way we pictured it, with this idea of fight to the top fight for survival. But life does not work like that. It just especially if you look at a street dog, you realize that when there is conflict over resource, fighting for it. Regardless of whether you win the fight or lose the fight, you are worse off for it, because you're likely to have sustained an injury. And if a street dog sustains an injury, it can get infested maggots and the dog can die. And so even if you don't get the food, often the most sensible thing to do the survival of the fittest. The fittest is the one that not fight is the most ferocious like the fittest is the one that knows when to walk away and pick another day and knows when posturing will work. And when a big part of posturing use what you said conversation are a big part of posturing is knowing who that posturing works with. You roll up your sleeves, and you have ready for a fight and you see the other person stand up and is bigger than you and you say, all right, maybe not. And you definitely see that in straight talks, you definitely see it and all social beings, that's just the most sensible thing to do. It's just more adaptive to do it that way. When the lockdown happened, that was an interesting one. So when you have human beings, I mean animals that have evolved in ecological niche with human beings or something like a country wide lockdown, where all the human beings disappear, all the establishments close, all the butchers and the restaurants close. Now, you have significantly changed the environment, and you have dropped the resources significantly. So we did actually see a sudden spike in dogs moving all over the place, leaving their territories getting into new territory. So there were fights based on that. And they had to kind of look for new sources, there was a lot of stress and tensions. So we did see that. And I was talking to some of the feeders who, on a side note, another interesting thing that government did during the lockdown is gave permission to feeders. So they were one of the few people who were considered essential service, they could actually step out and feed the dogs. So many of them who started stepping out and feeding the dogs, I was kind of following up with them. I was just doing a very small bit right outside my house. But I wanted to talk to people who are feeling a you know, in large numbers, because their dogs are now kind of scattered. And they said that after the first week or so they quickly learned about your new reality, they learned about your new neighbors, they learned that there was no need to fight, they learned to share limited resources that had dropped in quality and quantity. Because the first few weeks of the month of the lockdown, we ourselves were struggling for provisions and food. So people really didn't have much to feed, there was no meat at the butchers. And so there was just we were trying to make do with eggs and bread and whatever we could and things that like you said things that st is don't particularly want to eat. But they said okay, they started eating it, there was less of food that they learned to share and knew that and this is an interesting one new social dynamics that they had to negotiate to say, right? So we got to figure this out, we got to learn to share, what makes them do that? What makes them go from fighting, you know, the first week and then the second week realizing, right? So this is not making sense. Let's try to talk this out. Don't you sometimes wish we do that a little bit more human beings.
Michael Shikashio:I was just going to say how many, how many lessons we can take just from that story or telling you know how to how to walk away from a Facebook posts once in a while. Because it's expensive behavior to get ourselves it's a complex, we don't want to or need to, you know, so a little bit, we talked a little bit about the dog dog aggression. What about dog to human aggression? You know, in some countries, it is not tolerated? Are there any biting or even signs of aggression? And that dog is, you know, kind of dealt with in that cultural way for that particular area? What about India? Do you see that it's tolerated? Or there's some tolerance for it? Or are dog bites completely out of the realm of acceptable? Yeah,
Unknown:it's funny, because if you had asked me this question about a month ago, my answer would have been different. I would have said that, yes, the people who do get bitten, and this is still a valid part of the answer. People who do get bitten, there is a good number of them, there are a good number of them, who can get significantly agitated by it and kind of, you know, ask for the pound of flesh kind of thing, right? It's like really get very, very agitated about the whole thing. And it does lead to very, very dire consequences for the dog. And I sort of don't want to get into what can happen there. But yes, there is that angle. But what surprised me is that I recently was, for one of the papers that I was writing was going through a whole bunch of literature that I didn't know existed, and I just uncovered it recently talking about attitudes of people towards dogs, and the surprising to find that many, many, many, many of the people who get bitten, don't blame the dog. Don't blame the dog at all. And that was interesting. I think that might actually be a cultural thing. And the reason I didn't know about this a month ago is because you don't get to see that. When somebody doesn't blame the dog. They're not going to make a big deal of it. So you never hear about it. You know, the only times it gets surfaced to particularly people like me, you know who works who feels strongly about the welfare Have these dogs, the only time it gets a surface to us is when it's newsworthy, right? When it's click Beatty, when it when it's bits big when, when it's when it's, it's angry. So I think our views probably are biased by it. So I would have probably said, yes, yes, a lot of people do get very angry. But now, I don't know, maybe I need to ask more about this. And maybe I'll have a better answer for you. The next time,
Michael Shikashio:I will definitely be asking that question, because the thought that comes to mind is the statistics on dog bites. And if we were to compare, for instance, the US versus India now, obviously, there's lots of different data points or ways of collecting data that would skew those. But if we were to take the same survey, or the same data from both countries, and to compare the number of dog dog bites per capita, how it would compare, and as also the serious dog bites, or maybe even the fatalities? I would I would be curious to see the difference. Because in a country of a billion versus, you know, 300, something million here in the US, what are the differences? Do you have a lot of dog bite fatalities that are not disease or vector related? So actual killings from dogs?
Unknown:You know, that's a hard one to answer. Because a lot is What is a lot, right. If even if one person or one dog dies, that's a lot. It's not. Death is any amount it is a lot. I guess the point I'm making is yes, it's going to be there. I can't put a number to it, I wouldn't dare to put a number to it. Because of the complexity of what we see, because it's not. So what kind of dog did this? Was it a pet dog? Was it a street dog? Was it a half inside outside dog that we spoke about? And that is political. And so you're not going to get numbers, people are not going to be willing to give those numbers out very easily. So that was another interesting thing that did come out in the study is a lot of people under report bites in India, because they're worried that the dog is going to get prosecuted for it. Of course, fatalities will get reported but still underreported, like everything in India, all tragedies from India are under reported. And that's the I suppose our biggest tragedy of it all. So yes, we do see it. But it's not a conversation that to me occupies a big part of my mind, because I think that's, that's a sign of a system gone wrong, right? It's, we should be looking at what comes before what leads to it, we should be looking at more thorough vaccinations, more thorough, better care for these dogs, more integration between communities, it has been done repeatedly. So we have to follow those case studies. To get into a situation where this doesn't happen. It is it is a very, very small number at the end of the day, and we do need to bring in ethology is to ask us, Why is there conflict between free ranging free living dogs, which is sort of so comfortable with human beings, it doesn't make sense to have that kind of a conflict. The other part of it is significantly higher, which is humans causing fatalities to dogs and all kinds of injuries. But in this direction, again, it's maladaptive. They can't survive a dog that bites a person or kills a person, he's not going to make it period. Just not going to make it one way or the other, is very maladaptive behavior.
Michael Shikashio:Is there? Do you have a statistic for the number of dogs that live in India, either street dogs are owned otherwise,
Unknown:again, it's very difficult to estimate it. I've seen estimates that go from a million to 2 million. In my city, I've heard estimates of about 300,000, free living Doc's. But then again, the way these surveys are done is highly suspect it's very, very difficult to get an idea. So yeah, take it with a with a lot. A lot of salt.
Michael Shikashio:Yeah, I'd be curious. Again, I'm, I'm leaning again towards the question. Okay, so we have so many free living dogs match. Yeah. And compared to the US, but also, you know, we don't have free living many free living dogs here, depending on what part of the country you are, yes, but it's obviously, much different environments are much different culture. And, you know, got me thinking about, you know, how often the dog bites happen based on that aspect of the behavior. So we have these three living dogs that are much more integrated into society where you are, than they are here in many cases, and how much that impacts aggression. So the next question I kind of was that was coming to mind was about groups of dogs living together, so packs of dogs living together, and how often you might see an aggression case or some aggression incident when there's a group of dogs engaging what they would refer to as a PAC attack. So when I was in Australia, I saw some, you know, statistics on that or some talk about, you know, especially in the more rural areas, they actually have training for some of the the civilians or the people that live in those areas to for safety purposes, how to kind of move by or, or avoid those kinds of pack attacks. Do you see any of that in India who or is it? Is it because there's just so many dogs, so many people that it's less likely to occur?
Unknown:We do see it? Obviously, we do see it. I'm gonna answer that question. But before I do, I think your earlier train of thought, kind of informed that and I know we'll get you better data next time on this, provided you give me a heads up on what data you want me to bring it you didn't. But I think the important question to ask is not how many bytes? Or what percentage of bytes a PC, but how many of the bytes are pet dogs versus three talks? And that I think it's an important one, because in India, I don't have the numbers off the top of my head. But the bottom line is that it is more of the bytes that we see from pet dogs known dogs rather than street dogs. And that's significant because the number of street dogs versus number of pet dogs that we have, that's a huge number difference again, no, you know, I don't have good numbers to give you. That's why I said you need to give me a heads up to get you some good resources with numbers. But I think that's very, very telling. And to me, that is very, very telling, because that is something that we do see, I am a behavior consultant. And that is something that I do see his dogs that seem to be quite comfortable as a street dog no by tissues. But when they get adopted, they do develop behavioral problems going up to the point of evil by tank. And we see this repeated, I have some students who tell me that, you know, he was fine on the streets, but I adopted him because there were people beating him and I wanted to kind of rescue him. So I adopted him. But once I adopted him, he has turned very encodes aggressive. And that's that's a post adoption change that has happened, you'd imagine that a better life should mellow you down. But loss of freedom doesn't always work that way. It's, it's, you know, you choose to call it better life, I choose to call it loss of freedom. And it doesn't always work the way we it's not a fairytale ending for the dog, not necessarily. And I think that's an important thing to remember. And to answer the other question about panic attacks, I think that's another interesting one that we're more likely to see with dogs that resemble so called feral dogs a little bit more closely in terms of their ontology, their their social structures, their lives. These are dogs that live on the outskirts of city limits. They're not integrated well, with human beings, they are more shy, they're more wary, and they're more afraid. And if they're more, they're more fearful. They, you know, discouraging numbers, so they band together, your packs get bigger, integrated, dogs have smaller packs. And what's even more interesting, and I hear a lot of people talking about the word pack with dogs, I'm simply not convinced that they're pack animals, I think that there's a different word that needs to be used for them. Because in my mind, a pack animal is an animal that relies on the pack for procuring food, that's kind of the primary thing, right? Dogs integrated Street is do not rely on the group to find food. In fact, they will break up from the group and go in smaller numbers. Because if your primary mode of procuring food is begging, one cute little dog standing by the bakery, begging is cute, a big pack of dogs is scary, they're not going to make it happen. That's not that's just not going to work. And when they go scavenging, they tend to go either as individuals, or they might, and this is a very cute one. They tend to be seen in pairs during monsoons, because that's kind of the season when they're female dogs are coming into heat. And they're having this courtship. So you actually, I do have some videos of it for some time in the future of the courtship where they're actually playing the song and dance and the scene and pairs during the monsoon season, which is coming up in the next few months. So you don't see that much of Pac behavior other than if they're defending themselves. And that to a lot of the defending of themselves as posturing. So gather all my friends and make us louder noises necessary. And you see that behavior too. For example, that movie 101 Dalmatians you you see the WhatsApp the midnight, I forget it the midnight symphonies it where the dogs are kind of transferring this message through house late at night. Oh my goodness, I've seen that happen. So they do, you know, dogs in one neighborhood if they start making a ruckus. And that too, it's it's a it's a fear based thing. And it just kind of audible in the nature of the sound they produce. It's a very specific kind of sound. And once that happens, you will see that the neighboring groups start kind of joining in in the they're not joining the attack. It's not like they coming to this physical area. They're where they are, they have no clue what's going on. They just, you know in solidarity with my brothers and sisters kind of thing and they kind of going at it and house travel even further along and longer distances.
Michael Shikashio:There is a point that you are talking about the intelligence and we're talking about just seeing so many intelligent behaviors. We cognitive abilities that these dogs that are free living versus dogs that are confined and not having that opportunity to learn from their experiences. What is the most interesting thing you've seen in that regard? So if you've thought about a moment where you were just watching some dogs, some street ease, and you're like, Oh, my goodness, this is just really an amazing thing to witness that you would not see and you know, necessarily a pet dog, what would that be?
Unknown:I think the top of that list would be their social interactions. That is something that just blows my mind, because I think they oversimplify this when we talk about particularly when we talk about socialization of dogs, right? And what are we trying to do? And to me, I feel like they're trying to oversimplify their social interactions, because their social interactions are so complicated and nuanced. You see them having a lot of opinions. It's not that I call these dogs very socially sophisticated. But that does not mean that they get along with every dog. That means that they negotiate difficult social situations very skillfully. And they do have difficult social situations. They do have rivalries, they do have, it's incredible, they will, they will let a neighboring dog from one group pass to the territory, but not the other group, that groups, dogs are not our friends, they are our enemies. These are our allies, kind of political alliances that are formed. You see friends stand up for each other, you see friends falling apart, their normal friends, they don't want to share resources anymore. And then suddenly, you see them. I remember one dog that I was working with. She had named her Kermit for some reason. And she had a friend called Crowley and I would I started feeding her and then one day, she just starts dancing. Suddenly, she looks at the distance that she starts dancing, and I'm wondering what she's doing. And she's making these little whiny sounds and this beautiful, big dog walks in and I call them Crowley, and she kind of steps away from her food. And it's like she was melting for him. She was having a moment right. Total fangirl moment, I could see it. A lot of fawning kind of a behavior. And I know some people can get tempted to say, Oh, this is a dominant dog who walked in, and she was kind of showing reverence. But I will disagree because something happened between them a few weeks later, and she was very pissed off with him. And when he came saying, Can I get your food, she was like, No way go to hell. She chased him off. She smiled and barked at me. And he was very surprised he now it was his turn to try and be nice. And I could see a lot of fawning behaviors from his side, but she just didn't want to have anything to do with it. And she realized that and, and I took sides. I took sides. I said, Look, she's the one who I started feeding. So you know, I'm gonna stand in this in her defense. And she realized very quickly that that was my intention. And she was like, yes, yes, I got a human being and I am going to, I'm going to use my human being. Are you kidding me? That's incredible, that you're actually able to use me as a resource like that, right? And what was really interesting is that a few weeks later, they had made up and she was back to kind of offering his food and I was trying to stand in defense. And she's like, I'm not necessary. I got this be cool, we're fine. And to be the question that keeps coming back to my mind, I have chiru. Here, my dog says incredibly complicated social lives, how much of it to our dogs get to experience? What do we allow? Do we allow negative reactions at all? Do we allow a dog to actually say, yes, you can actually have negative feelings towards a dog and actually expressed it is not okay at all. I think that that really, really stands out to me.
Michael Shikashio:Yes. And I can think of a couple of relationships I've had in the past that you're describing there.
Unknown:You know, I know we're kind of we've taken a lot of time, but I think you're going to love this particular story. On relationships. My dog chiru a lot of people ask, Is your dog friendly? And I never know what to say when they asked that it's your dog. Is your dog dog friendly? I don't know what that means. Yeah, she's friendly to dogs who she wants to be friendly to. And with dogs. She doesn't want to be friendly when she isn't much like me, right? And much like all of us. And so we were sometime November last year, we were at a resort where there were not a resort or coffee estate kind of thing, where there were about seven free living dogs there. And chiru walks in there and six of those dogs were quite okay with being friends with cheetahs. They wanted to be friends with her. And she really just didn't get along with any of them. She either kind of turned a cold shoulder or she had a nasty thing also to say to each of them. And then there was one dog who just didn't who wanted to be left alone and didn't want to have anything to do with her and that's the dog that she Oh my goodness. She danced and danced and danced for that guy. It was I was embarrassed watching it. I was like give up already. He doesn't want to be friends with you just give up. And she put on her best show for him. And I have videos of him actually coming right up to her face and growling at her. And she knew how to handle it. She didn't lose her cool. And she just she was really good at saying, hey, but I still like you. I still want to be friends with you. And I just was thinking, why is this dog acting so strange, and I realized, Oh, my goodness, I have videos from every year for the past 10 years where she's been doing this. She goes to a place she finds the one dog that is not interested in being friends with her. And that's the one dog she puts all our effort into befriending. Now tell me we've had all relationships like this with people to right, the one who's the hardest to get as the one we want to be friends with. That's that's who I was in college. The person I eventually married was the one who's to least interested in me to start with. Oh, can I deny her of this kind of complexity? It is fun.
Michael Shikashio:She sounds like the ambassador breed and for being a dog in that environment. That's so that's such a great story. So Siddharth, thank you so much for taking the time. Where can people find you? And what are you up to next? What Where do you want to direct them to right,
Unknown:so people can find me on my website, dub dub dub.box.com, that is B H A rcs.com. I do have a book that's out called dog nose. I believe in the US. It's only available in Kindle on Kindle right now. And I've been trying to get my publishers to get the hardcopy out. And we have a nice course on Udemy on dog communication with lots of beautiful little clips of dogs communicating with each other. And that's kind of my passion. And we have a workshop about a 20 hour workshop to dive deeper into several of these topics. All of our education is completely online accessible from everywhere. So yeah, that's on my list. And hopefully, the next time we talk we'll talk a little bit more about my research and things like that, because that's where my master's is taking me and it's a very interesting one too.
Michael Shikashio:I would love it. I'm sure the listeners would love to have you back. So thank you so much again, and I look forward to talk to you again in the future.
Unknown:My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Michael Shikashio:I hope you enjoyed hearing from sindoor as much as I did about the lives of street dogs. She truly does have remarkable insights about dog behavior. If you liked the show, please feel free to subscribe, share and give a rating and hop on over to aggressive dog.com For more information about helping dogs with aggression. From the aggression in dogs master course two webinars from world renowned experts, and even an annual conference. We have options for both pet pros and pet owners to learn more about aggression in dogs